Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

[Snorri1234]

By way of conclusion though, you have to conceed that the millions killed in the name of Marxism and Junche is by far worse than anything any specific church has cooked up in a very long time. Why aren't you spending more time decrying organized atheism? It seems to be the most dangerous ideal at the moment.

I am not decrying organized atheism for the same reason you are not decrying about 5 billion other people right now for believing in or doing the wrong thing. They are not my belief.



You want me to decry buddhism? Or nazism?

Why should I?

[CrazyAnglican]

So the slippery slope only comes into play when it's organized religion? When it's organized anything else why bother?

The crimes of these people deserve the attention of the world. The idea of "Why bother?", is exactly why these things are allowed to go on.

People being immolated in molten iron?
People being executed for the high crime of making an international phone call?
Gulags, in which 20% of the prisoners don't survive each year?

I'd say those are pretty good reasons to bother.

[Snorri1234]

So the slippery slope only comes into play when it's organized religion? When it's organized anything else why bother?

No. This is where you miss the point.

I think organized atheism is as much a slippery slope as organized religion. Hence why I am not an organized atheist. Secular humanism is not organized atheism with doctrines and shit like that. It is based on reason and justice, and the only atheistic thing about it is that it does not posit a supernatural cause for that reason or justice. Since it's end-goal is nothing but reason and justice I don't see the problem.

The crimes of these people deserve the attention of the world. The idea of "Why bother?", is exactly why these things are allowed to go on.

Please, there are so many crimes around the world. I don't see you posting topics about ending modern slavery, wars in Africa or coups in South America. You made this topic to attack atheists, not out of any concern for the people who suffer from these crimes every day. Why aren't you decrying slave-traders, African warlords or South-American guerilla-fighters? Why aren't you decrying japanese whale-fishers, german neo-nazis or Maleysian prisons?

[Napoleon Ier]

No, the topic was made to demonstrate that atheism isn't beyond reproach in its praxis, and draw attention to the victims, all too easily and conveniently ignored by your magic circus of PC clowns so as not to disturb your narrow and monolithic Weltanschauung in which the "Enemy" is organized religion and anyone to the right of Gordon Brown.

[CrazyAnglican]

So the slippery slope only comes into play when it's organized religion? When it's organized anything else why bother?

No. This is where you miss the point.

I think organized atheism is as much a slippery slope as organized religion. Hence why I am not an organized atheist. Secular humanism is not organized atheism with doctrines and shit like that. It is based on reason and justice, and the only atheistic thing about it is that it does not posit a supernatural cause for that reason or justice. Since it's end-goal is nothing but reason and justice I don't see the problem.

Yet the only one you speak out against is the lesser one (in terms of atrocities in the past 200 years). I don't think I miss the point at all. It's only when organized atheism is thrown in your face that you'll even aknowledge it's existence.

No, secular humanism is about your view of reason and justice. So, you certainly don't see a problem with it. A christian can just as rightly claim that reason and justice are an intergal part of their beliefs too. This opinion shouldn't allow you to attack others' beliefs.

The crimes of these people deserve the attention of the world. The idea of "Why bother?", is exactly why these things are allowed to go on.

Please, there are so many crimes around the world. I don't see you posting topics about ending modern slavery, wars in Africa or coups in South America. You made this topic to attack atheists, not out of any concern for the people who suffer from these crimes every day. Why aren't you decrying slave-traders, African warlords or South-American guerilla-fighters? Why aren't you decrying japanese whale-fishers, german neo-nazis or Maleysian prisons?

Exactly, and few atheists have brought them up either (aside from Juan for the most part). Yet we still seem to be rehashing the Middle Ages as if they were yesterday. On this issue the non-believers are getting a little out of hand in many parts of the world and on a grand scale. There should be a thread speaking out against it. It seems a little hypocritical to accuse me of attacking atheism when this is the first thread I've even remotely attacked anyone in. You have engaged in some anti-theism debates before as I recall.

There needs to be constant watch by yourselves over what happens. Even here religion is crawling back into politics. Last thing they want to change is that cities shouldn't have a bunch of sundays where they open their shops. (Like they can't fucking decide whether they want to open their shop or not.)

While that is not major, it shows that religion can crop up if people don't pay attention. The argument is a warning. A warning against letting religion control everything.

Opening shops....horrors.

Yet this "atheistic dogma" of which you speak does not exist. Atheism has only one idea; "there is nothing supernatural". To form a system from this means you have to come up with certain guidelines not inherent to atheism, which then means you are not talking about actual atheism.

Very well, back to the basics for a moment. These people are atheists. They do not believe in a god or gods. They have embraced a philosophy that in no way inhibits their atheism (in fact encourages it). Atheism is part of the doctrine in the same way that it's a part of Marxism. Therefore it's a variety of atheism. Atheists do not have to agree on anything other than the nonexistence of a god or gods. These atheists just happen to have formed into a more cohesive group than you are comfortable with. Your atheism isn't the only atheism. If others choose to organize what rule prohibits them from doing so?

The doctrine does not logically flow from atheism. Therefore the doctrine is not atheistic. It is certainly Junche doctrine, but not atheism.

Okay, you've got a counter argument. What's your evidence?

You certainly disagree with them, and you should. If the slippery slope argument that you were using before is you main concern, then why are you not loudly decrying these thugs? Why hasn't their atrocities been your main focus?

Because you still don't understand in the slightest what I'm talking about.

The reason that you're not up in arms about horrific crimes in North Korea is that I don't understand what your talking about? Clearly this is the case, enlighten me.

The example that you bring up is not of our concern because we do not subscribe to organized atheism.

Then why the concern about atrocities brought about by Christians? You certainly don't ascribe to Christianity. It certainly seems as if you are merely paying attention to what best serves your argument and letting the greater crimes of others slip by becasue they do not serve as ammunition against religion.

There are many things the atheists here seem to agree on that go beyond mere atheism.

...like?

Secular humanism strives to make the country secular, which is what a country should be.

There is a doctrine that is very much in existence in Europe and America though. In the US secular humanists are very much interested in how/what children are taught in schools, etc.

Of course they are.

It seems like you answered your own question there.

[CrazyAnglican]

Now back to the point. Do you have any ideas about forming a cohesive voice on this matter? I'll back you on those other atrocities Snorri. Just start the threads.

Let's do this:

I publicly am outraged by the totalitarian regime in North Korea and call for an immediate stop to them. I will research websites that take contributions for the purpose of easing the suffering of people there.

Please post your username here if you disagree with the treatment of the populace in North Korea and would like to know how to do something about it.

1) CrazyAnglican
2) OnlyAmbrose
3) Caleb the Cruel
4) Napoleon Ier
5) muy_thaiguy
6)

[OnlyAmbrose]

OnlyAmbrose

[CrazyAnglican]

Thanks OA,

Right now Amnesty International is a pretty good resource. I'll be looking for others.

http://www.amnesty.org/

http://www.ihra.co.in/

http://www.unirights.net/

[Caleb the Cruel]

Caleb the Cruel

[CrazyAnglican]

Thanks Caleb

[muy_thaiguy]

muy_thaiguy.

[Napoleon Ier]

Napoleon Ier

[Snorri1234]

No, the topic was made to demonstrate that atheism isn't beyond reproach in its praxis, and draw attention to the victims, all too easily and conveniently ignored by your magic circus of PC clowns so as not to disturb your narrow and monolithic Weltanschauung in which the "Enemy" is organized religion and anyone to the right of Gordon Brown.

Ah, Nappy turns up and blends together atheism and socialism like it is nothing.

Man, I can't stop laughing over the fact that you call my worldview narrow.

[Napoleon Ier]

Wrong.

I merely pointed that in your indoctrinated mind, religion and anyone vaguely right-wing blend into one. The fact that to you, socialism and atheism are the "good", anyone else the "bad', does not have any reflection on what i may believe about the links between the two.

[Snorri1234]

Wrong.

I merely pointed that in your indoctrinated mind, religion and anyone vaguely right-wing blend into one.

Except that they don't. I know quite a few atheist rightwingers. In fact, I know more atheist rightwingers than I know religious rightwingers.

But by all means continue spouting your fallacious bullshit.

[Aradhus]

How can you force someone to be an atheist? I didn't know human capabilities had rose to the height of policing human thought. Standing by your conviction in the face of death is not noble, it is basically no different than suicide bombers. Answering no, when what is in your head and heart is yes, to save your life is most definitely no less noble than suicide by proxy.

[AAFitz]

this is a good case in point, why we should never, ever underestimate the horrors that occur every day in this world, in the name of greed, power, and unfortunately religion too.

[CrazyAnglican]

Absolutely, yet getting too worried about organized anything hinders the structures that are in place to fight against this kind of thing. The websites I provided earlier are organized to try and put a stop to this.

Within the Christian religion there are likewise organizations to help the needy and those who are being maltreated. Liberation Theology (as mpjh cited in another thread) is focused on bringing about real change in underpriveledged countries. The Theology of Development, and simple groups performing missionary work throughout the world are also evidence of the good that can be carried out by organized religions. The work of people in the name of God can range from packing a bookbag of necessities, for children who otherwise wouldn't have them, to packing up and moving to Uganda to help out there. Both are things that happen in the parish to which I belong. These are all cases in which religion is used for great good.

It's certainly tempting to focus on the bad in something that we disagree with. In this particular area though the good outweighs the bad, which is (I suspect) why people tend to focus on the Middle Ages or get a little vague when trying to make that point against Christianity (specifically), although most other religions as well. It just isn't a big factor and hasn't been for two hundred years or so. People who seek power tend to do so through political not religious channels nowadays.

AAFitz - should I add your name?

[Snorri1234]

Oh btw CA I'm gonna respond to your post. Just thinking about how to formulate.

[CrazyAnglican]

How can you force someone to be an atheist?

Threatening to kill them by pouring hot molten iron on them seems to be the particular method that was attempted. You're right; it didn't work. Still not the nicest thing to do though.

Standing by your conviction in the face of death is not noble, it is basically no different than suicide bombers.

So you're saying they should just have told the guys what they wanted to hear and been done with it? I can see, from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe, how that would seem the only reasonable solution. However, from the point of view of a believer, what do you gain from it? A few years, that is assuming that the guy who has his finger on the Hot Molten Iron button doesn't decide to seal the deal and prevent any backsliding.

There is a huge difference between someone who is rounded up, imprisoned, and executed for his beliefs, and someone who is recruited to kill himself and as many infidels as possible. I'm not sure what you see as basically the same there.

Answering no, when what is in your head and heart is yes, to save your life is most definitely no less noble than suicide by proxy.

Again, suicide by proxy is forcing someone (who doesn't want to) to kill you in an attempt to assure his own safety (ie. pointing a gun at a police officer, after he's told you to put it down). What happened to these people was not instigated by them at any stage, nor could the actions of their persecutors be construed as self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. The thugs responsible for this placed them in this position in an attempt to force them to conform to another doctrine. To compare this to suicide by proxy is like saying a woman contributed to her rape by her choice of clothes. It just makes no sense at all.

Thanks Nappy and MTG for voicing your outrage.

[CrazyAnglican]

Oh btw CA I'm gonna respond to your post. Just thinking about how to formulate.

dude, It's been a week, this one ought to be good.

[Neoteny]

Well, if he's anything like me, it's probably just not going to happen.

[CrazyAnglican]

Eh, oh well. I was just curious about the rebuttal he promised.

[PLAYER57832]

I think the problem is not in whether an idea is religious or not.

The problem is when it goes from "this is what I think" to "this is what YOU should think" and then, ultimately to "for you to act differantly offends MY right to 'be'". It does not matter if the banner you are flying is "equality for all", "all praise Allah", "heil Hitler", "Go forth under the banner of Christ" or any other thought. The problem is when you stop accepting that others can be correct.

THEN, you are a fanatic and you ARE the problem... regardless of your beliefs or excuses.

This is why basic "stops" are so fundamental. For Christianity, there is the Bible. I, and most Christians would argue that if you REALLY read it, in full context, it offers moderation, not hatred. I have heard the same from moderate Moslems. Certainly,
people to do read it and use it to justify all sorts of ills. However, the answer, historically, in those cases has been not just outward attacks, but the greatest movement has come when those within the belief system to step up and say "hey, this is not what MY faith decrees". Granted, this is not necessarily done all quietly, behind closed doors. However, it DOES make for a marked differance between religious idiocy and atheistic idiocy.

If there is more of a danger in the atheistic beliefs, it is that. Precisely that there IS no real limit except human logic. And logic is ultimately always fallible.

Understand, I think the differance is pretty slight. The truth is that people can and will do "evil" and will pull in whatever thought processes they need to justify it. But, whether they use a religiuos or non-religious base, the process AND the results are identical. The differance is primarily in the "cure".

[PLAYER57832]

Now back to the point. Do you have any ideas about forming a cohesive voice on this matter? I'll back you on those other atrocities Snorri. Just start the threads.

Let's do this:

I publicly am outraged by the totalitarian regime in North Korea and call for an immediate stop to them. I will research websites that take contributions for the purpose of easing the suffering of people there.

Please post your username here if you disagree with the treatment of the populace in North Korea and would like to know how to do something about it.

1) CrazyAnglican
2) OnlyAmbrose
3) Caleb the Cruel
4) Napoleon Ier
5) muy_thaiguy
6)

Good for pointing folks toward solutions, instead of just arguing about problems.


However, I think we need to do much more than add our names to an internet poll, particularly one that has little chance of even reaching decision makers on any side. What CAN we do?

#1 Teach our children to respect people who think differantly from you. This does NOT mean compromising your values, just accepting that not everyone shares them.

#2 Work in your community to promote various real and true tolerance building programs. Ironically, the best efforts are often things that don't seem to have much to do with tolerance at all. Kids who are simply around others who are somehow "differant" on a regular, normal basis (not "show and tell", just .. oh, yeah, that guy who rakes the lawn at school is a bit slow .. so what? He has a nice smile.).