Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

[CrazyAnglican]

It has come to my attention that some folks would rather dwell on the middle ages than actual atrocities that we can do something about.

The North Korean government has an ideology known as Juche which at it's basis is atheistic (unless one wants to make the argument that Kim Jung Il is somehow a god). The people of that country are suffering at the hands of their own government right now. While I knew, in general terms, that the situation in North Korea was bad I unfortunately fell into that hope that it was probably not as bad as I'd heard. Everything that I can find about this government tells how horrible the policies of this government are.

"Juche," or self-reliance, the Government's state ideology, and the personality cult of "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-Il, have become a kind of civil religion used by the Government as a "spiritual" underpinning for its rule. Refusal on religious or other grounds to accept the leader as the supreme authority exemplifying the State and society's needs is regarded as opposition to the national interest.

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 0250.shtml

I encourage people to speak out about this situation. Perhaps if we do, we can have some effect. Amnesty International is a reputable group that is concerned about the situation in North Korea. If nothing else a donation to that group would help.

[GabonX]

This brings up an interesting point which I have always wondered. If someone really believes that they are going to heavan when they die, why the emphasis on preserving human life? Wouldn't such a system of beliefs diminish if not eliminate any tragedy associated with death?

[CrazyAnglican]

That's a really good point. I think from the teachings of Christ we are told to "Do unto others as we would have them do unto us" and "Love our neighbors as ourselves". This type of treatment while not having an effect on the people's spiritual being is still an atrocity given the gruesome death and obvious pain involved. I have no doubt that these people who suffered such horrific deaths are in Heaven right now, but that does not diminish the crime. One might as well absolve every murderer on the same basis.

[hecter]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

[Iliad]

It is a cult, I do not see how it is atheistic.

And if you missed it, I think religion is still a source of atrocities to this day just not on the Inquisition scale.

[CrazyAnglican]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

[hecter]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

You're correct in that this is atheistic, but it is not atheism.

[Iliad]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

It is a religion. A more material religion, and worse at hiding its attempts at controlling the masses, but still a religion. There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.

I know you're trying hard CA, but don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[snufkin]

Hey Iliad, how come that atheist group you have in your banner call themselves heathens?
Heathens were not atheists..

[CrazyAnglican]

Excellent point heathens were pagans weren't they?

[Neoteny]

Depends on the definition. We decided on it as an ironic term that is usually used to describe us.

[lgoasklucyl]

Normally I respect your posts CA and thoroughly enjoy debating with you, but in this case it's pretty obvious you're using the term 'atheism' to try and deter arguments against the wrong-doings of religion, when in fact it is not atheists in any way committing the atrocities. Don't get me wrong, it is horrible what's going on and agree with you that word needs to get out. But when it's posted in the way you did and you continue to argue it's atheists who are wrong, I cannot help but be disappointed in you for having posted this as an attempt to make atheists look bad.

[OnlyAmbrose]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

You're correct in that this is atheistic, but it is not atheism.

So you can peg atrocities committed hundreds of years ago by Christians on "religion" but we can't peg atrocities committed today by "atheistic people" on "atheism"?

[lgoasklucyl]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

You're correct in that this is atheistic, but it is not atheism.

So you can peg atrocities committed hundreds of years ago by Christians on "religion" but we can't peg atrocities committed today by "atheistic people" on "atheism"?

Is Marxism being an atheist because they don't worship a God and have a set of ideals not based on a higher power?

[Iliad]

I'd like to make the point that they aren't being forced to be atheists, they're being forced to be Juche.

But Juche is atheistic. Atheism isn't a well defined doctrine, and atheists do not agree on everything. Juche is an ideology that focuses on the state not any higher power. The Christians in question were to give up their belief in God and have it replaced by a bellief in the strictly material. This can be said to be atheistic.

You're correct in that this is atheistic, but it is not atheism.

So you can peg atrocities committed hundreds of years ago by Christians on "religion" but we can't peg atrocities committed today by "atheistic people" on "atheism"?

And you continue to miss the point.

Yes we can peg the atrocities done by Christians on religion when the atrocities were done with religion as the justification, spark that started the conflict or served as reasons for it. There is a difference, which you still have not grasped, between an atrocity done by a person who happened to be Christian or atheist, and atrocities who were caused by religion or atheism.

And no they are not atheistic people.

[CrazyAnglican]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"? Heck yeah Marxism is atheistic, and many Marxists are atheists. I'd disagree with you on this because the main defense of atheism is that it's not a defined set of ideals. This makes it difficult to say "Well atheists believe this" and "atheists do that". Therefore its very handy rhetorically to be an ill-defined group with only one distinguishing characteristic. The weakness of this defense is that you cannot now redefine it to exclude these atheists. The Christians who say "They weren't acting according to the teachings of Christ" have a doctrine that they can point to which supports their claim. To say "These people aren't atheists" when they don't believe in any god doesn't hold water. Marxists certainly tend toward atheism. The doctrine of Juche is a doctrine which holds Kim Jung Il up as the icon of the state and Christians were commanded to give up their religon (not their philosophical or political leanings) to conform to it. Hence it is atheistic, just as hecter agreed.

[lgoasklucyl]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"? Heck yeah Marxism is atheistic, and many Marxists are atheists. I'd disagree with you on this because the main defense of atheism is that it's not a defined set of ideals. This makes it difficult to say "Well atheists believe this" and "atheists do that". Therefore its very handy rhetorically to be an ill-defined group with only one distinguishing characteristic. The weakness of this defense is that you cannot now redefine it to exclude these atheists. The Christians who say "They weren't acting according to the teachings of Christ" have a doctrine that they can point to which supports their claim. To say "These people aren't atheists" when they don't believe in any god is doesn't hold water. Marxists certainly tend toward atheism. The doctrine of Juche is a doctrine which holds Kim Jung Il up as the icon of the state and Christians were commanded to give up their religon (not their philosophical or political leanings) to conform to it. Hence it is atheistic, just as hecter agreed.

Hecter made that point but myself and others have stated that it is not atheistic.

There's a glaring gap between something being set in action by the state/government and a group of people performing actions due their beliefs (or non-beliefs). If a religious individuals commits an atrocity in the name of a religion it is stated as such. They are stated as following a higher power or obeying the laws/guidelines of their religion. What's happening in North Korea is not being perpetuated by Atheists, but rather Il and the North Korean state. Yes they are obeying (or choosing not to obey) ideals written and forced upon them by Il and his regime and not a God or higher power. This shows devotion/force by the state, not Atheism. The state is what fears Christianity and persecutes for it. This is not an 'atheistic' ideal (you stated yourself such things do not exist...), and therefore cannot be pinned on atheism. Pin it on North Korea and Il's reign or terror, not atheism.

[CrazyAnglican]

And no they are not atheistic people.

It is a religion. A more material religion, and worse at hiding its attempts at controlling the masses, but still a religion. There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.

Let's see- Religion

Claims that it knows exactly how the world came about

• Claims that at its source is a holy being and you should not even try to dispute it
• Knows exactly how you should behave
  
• Threatens that if you do no follow the god, or that you do not follow the rules set out, you will suffer a punishment nothing else can save you from
  
• Allures with promises of great things in the afterlife if you do follow the rules and the god
• Denounces any other religions

Iliad you have adjusted your own definition of religion to accomodate these people. They are not a religion by your own estimation. They are atheistc by definition in that they do not believe in a god or gods. Please cite some evidence to the contrary.

[CrazyAnglican]

There's a glaring gap between something being set in action by the state/government and a group of people performing actions due their beliefs (or non-beliefs). If a religious individuals commits an atrocity in the name of a religion it is stated as such. They are stated as following a higher power or obeying the laws/guidelines of their religion. What's happening in North Korea is not being perpetuated by Atheists, but rather Il and the North Korean state. Yes they are obeying (or choosing not to obey) ideals written and forced upon them by Il and his regime and not a God or higher power. This shows devotion/force by the state, not Atheism. The state is what fears Christianity and persecutes for it. This is not an 'atheistic' ideal (you stated yourself such things do not exist...), and therefore cannot be pinned on atheism. Pin it on North Korea and Il's reign or terror, not atheism.

First of all, I'm sorry if this appears to be a smear of atheism. It is not intended to be, but the people carrying out these atrocities are atheists. Nobody does anything in the name of a disbelief. That alone makes the atrocities attack a convenient one, but the weakness is that people do tend to place their faith in other things once religion is out of the way. The atheists in North Korea have elected to place their faith in a madman. That does not mean that they are not atheists, nor does it mean that they are not engaged in a persecution of Christians on religious grounds. By no means are their actions to be construed as the actions of all atheists. They are, however, the actions of a secular government that exercises extreme regulation of religious activity within its borders. The example I cited was an attempt to make Christians give up their faith in God and to replace it with an athesitic doctrine. Hence it does reflect on atheism. Most atheists are peaceful just like most Christians are, but not all of them.

[Iliad]

And no they are not atheistic people.

It is a religion. A more material religion, and worse at hiding its attempts at controlling the masses, but still a religion. There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.

Let's see- Religion

Claims that it knows exactly how the world came about

• Claims that at its source is a holy being and you should not even try to dispute it
• Knows exactly how you should behave
  
• Threatens that if you do no follow the god, or that you do not follow the rules set out, you will suffer a punishment nothing else can save you from
  
• Allures with promises of great things in the afterlife if you do follow the rules and the god
• Denounces any other religions

Iliad you have adjusted your own definition of religion to accomodate these people. They are not a religion by your own estimation. They are atheistc by definition in that they do not believe in a god or gods. Please cite some evidence to the contrary.

Last time I checked Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and other large Eastern religions were not atheistic.

CA, I would suggest you stop embarassing yourself. They are not atheists-they are Juche. That is not a secular government if it persecutes other religions, that is a theocracy. In your attempt to somehow show religion in a better light you are only showing today's religious fanatics. The christians are not abandoning their beliefs for atheistic doctrine, but rather one that is another religion.

You are only showing religion's evil in today's world.

[CrazyAnglican]

Iliad,

I find it reprehensible that either of us would bandy semantics about the very real suffering that is going on in that country. You're ever shifting definition of religion seems a desperate attempt to keep atheism pristine and distinct from the actions of atheists. The government of North Korea a theocracy (just a theocracy with no god- Theos means God)? I'd suggest that I'm not the one who is embarrasing myself.

[hecter]

Going strictly by the definition of atheism, they are atheist, most certainly atheistic, but it's generally considered that the presence of a religion overrules the fact that they would be considered atheists. It's recessive. You wouldn't call somebody with brown eyes blue eyed simply because they've got a blue eye gene and a brown eye gene, would you? No, it just doesn't make sense. As such, you shouldn't be calling these people atheists because they aren't, they're Juche.

[CrazyAnglican]

Nor is it breaking news that North Korea operates a vicious prison gulag -- "not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century," as NBC News reported more than a year ago. Some 200,000 men, women, and children are held in these slave-labor camps; hundreds of thousands of others have perished in them over the years. Some of the camps are so hellish that 20 percent or more of their prisoners die from torture and abuse each year. The dead can be of any age: North Korea's longstanding policy is to imprison not only those accused of such "crimes" as practicing Christianity or complaining about North Korean life, but their entire families, grandparents and grandchildren included

.

There is nothing recessive about it when a person renounce their belief in God and instead embrace a philosophy in which they must see the secular (not having to do with religion) state as sovereign. The problem here is that these are atheists that you disagree with on some issues other than the non-existence of God. They are still atheists and they are spreading their particular variety through violence.

[mpjh]

Thomas J. Belke has written a book describing Juche as the newest world religion, with "more adherents than Judaism, Sikhism, Jainism or Zoroastrianism" (JUCHE: A Christian Study of North Korea's State Religion, Publisher: Living Sacrifice Books, Bartlesville, OK; published July 1999; available at Amazon.com. Note: Any researchers interested in Juche or religion in North Korea will need to read this volume, but be aware that the "Christian Study" part of the title is not to be taken lightly. This book is not an objective ethnographic survey of Juche. Belke presents a wealth of fascinating factual information you won't find anywhere else, but the perspective is overtly Evangelical. Some readers who are not Evangelicals -- and some who are -- may be annoyed by this approach, but most serious researchers will recognize that the book has value to sociologists both in the unprecedented window it opens into contemporary North Korea, as well as the glimpse into Evangelical apologetic thought.).

[CrazyAnglican]

Even if some might want to consider it a "religion" (as we've seen the definition of that word seems to shift depending on what the user wants to avoid being associated with) it is still an atheistic one. THese people were certainly being forced to give up the belief in God to be replaced with the belief in the material (hence no god- a- theos).


The telling thing here is the storm of protests:

1) They're not atheists (even though they don't believe in a god/gods)
2) They might be atheistic but they have a religion therefore they're not atheists (yet, their religion holds that the state and it's head are the proper place for veneration)
3) Okay, but it's not carried out in the name of atheism (big deal nothing is- they're still atheists)


If you deny the darkness within yourself, then nothing can save you from it.

Point after point in these threads I've acknowledged the evil done by Christians. I've done so with an eye to the good done by them as well, but you guys seem to want to disavow anyone that happens to be an atheist and is a really evil person. That is part of atheism. If you have the right to choose (in fact to make up) right and wrong for yourself, some people will use that freedom to dominate and perpetrate unspeakable evil. That goes for using religion to prepetrate evil too. We must stand together against evil if we are to be good. To say "religion" is responsible for this and that is just as nonsensical as saying "atheism" is responsible for this and that.

Bottom line:

Does the atrocity in North Korea bug you and are you willing to try to find something to do about it? Or shall we sit here and pointlessly bicker about five hundred year old problems while the ones of today go unanswered?