Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

[radiojake]

I don't even see where the debate is.

North Korean government have simply devised a system of control that best suits it's situation, and when you have a dictorship like it does, you play around and make yourself more powerful than 'god' through said Juche system. - The point is not whether it is athiestic or based on 'God' - the point is that the people are under control

In the US, though, you don't get President's claiming they are all mighty and powerful, it just wouldn't go down in a society that is supposed to enjoy 'freedoms' - It can, however, claim that they 'hear + speak' to god, and that he is 'god's right hand man' - Either way the point is to control people, and in the US it's best to appeal to the Christian side of people


It's all a joke. You can't pin the North Korea atrocities on 'Athiesm' because everyone's non-belief in god is different. We don't go to a church or a hall to celebrate 'non-believing' - We just happen to not believe in a god. We've never picked up a book and said 'in the name of this doctrine, this is how things are going to happen' - (Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm - Communism has a book and doctrine (Marx) - Christianity has a book and doctrine (Bible) - they're both systems of control, and Junch falls into the same categories.

Athiesm falls out of those catergories because there is no driving force of a system control out of athiesm, it's only a lack of belief in a god or gods

[CrazyAnglican]

North Korean government have simply devised a system of control that best suits it's situation, and when you have a dictorship like it does, you play around and make yourself more powerful than 'god' through said Juche system. - The point is not whether it is athiestic or based on 'God' - the point is that the people are under control

Exactly, and since religions (at least Christianity) are not generally used for this type of atrocity and have not for two hundred years or so. We should focus on the methods of control that are being used. These atheists fell for one of those secular forms of control. We need to focus on where the greatest evil is being done today, not five hundred years ago.

In the US, though, you don't get President's claiming they are all mighty and powerful, it just wouldn't go down in a society that is supposed to enjoy 'freedoms' - It can, however, claim that they 'hear + speak' to god, and that he is 'god's right hand man' - Either way the point is to control people, and in the US it's best to appeal to the Christian side of people

Not at all, the "Bush talked to God" schtick is concocted by a Palestinian official and even other Palestinian officials who were in the room said he never claimed that. It wouldn't fly anyway. If it were to be used to "control" the populace, how come nobody ever heard of it?
See the bottom of the post for the cited refutation of that one.

It's all a joke. You can't pin the North Korea atrocities on 'Athiesm' because everyone's non-belief in god is different.

You a taking a general defense of atheism that does not work here. When Christians say that another Christian is not acting like a Christian should, they have a point. The teachings of Christ are clear about how you should treat others, even enemies.

These atheists have banded together and formed an atheistic ideology. They have attempted to force Christians to embrace this ideology. You may not agree with them, but it does not make them any less atheistic.

Athiesm falls out of those catergories because there is no driving force of a system control out of athiesm, it's only a lack of belief in a god or gods

That's taking the tack that the only atheists are the ones that do not ascribe to a specific atheistic doctrine. That's a narrow view of atheism when looking at the basic definition that an atheist is merely a person that doesn't believe in a god or gods. These people are most certainly atheists. Whether they have a codified system of conduct or not does not change the fact that they do not believe in a god or gods. Hence they most certainly are atheists. They are atheists who have embraced an ideology that you would deny and abhor, just as some theists have embraced religious stances that I would deny and abhor. They are still theists though; just as the ones who embrace Juche are still atheists. I certainly understand why you would want to diavow them (who wouldn't) but they are most certainly atheists. Like it or not their atheism has a part to play in their actions.

Look, if you want to deny that Bush talks to god, and thinks that god directs him, enjoy yourself. The rest of the world knows the man for the crazy evangelical that he is.

OK, I'll enjoy myself.

The White House denied Bush said it

Mahmoud Abbas denied Bush said it

Nabil Sha'ath is your source...the same man who claimed Israel forged documents seized from Yasser Arafat's office in Ramallah indicating that the Palestinian Authority was funding the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade.

[Backglass]

This is just silly. How can someone force you to be atheist (or christian for that matter)?

While I agree that North Korea is evil and people should be able to do as they wish with regard to religion, I don't see why it matters. You religious folks believe that there is another world beyond this one, so as long as you stay true in your heart you still win your big cosmic lottery anyway. Correct?

[CrazyAnglican]

I do not actually believe they are atheists, they are religious for Christ's Sake

Once again you are confusing atheist with non-religious. According to your definition lots of self-identified Christians could be considered atheists. The definition breaks down very quickly. Simply put, they do not believe in God or gods so they are atheists. If you don't like my use of the term then show how it's wrong (as I've been doing with your definitions), but until then I'll continue to use it as it's an appropriate term. I'm not saying that you or any other atheist on this site is responsible for this, but the people who are responsible are most certainly atheists

2) Other atheist doing evil things does not change my outlook on atheism. Humans will do evil, and some of those humans will be atheists.

Other Christians have done evil things which in no way colors my outlook on Christianity (nor should it). Humans will most certainly do evil and some of them will be Christians, but that does nothing to devalue the teachings of Christ.

[CrazyAnglican]

I don't see why it matters. You religious folks believe that there is another world beyond this one, so as long as you stay true in your heart you still win your big cosmic lottery anyway. Correct?

Are you really suggesting that pouring molten iron on a Christian shouldn't be considered that much of a crime because they believe in Heaven? Is it a greater crime to kill an atheist than a Christian?

2dimes has still made the best point about this and we shouldn't lose sight of it:

This thread is spectacular. "Wait they's not Athiests, we're the good guys. Religion's the thing that makes people bad."

Yeah kind of but everything's religion. It's easy to look on from the outside of it and identify the flaws of that ideology and it's religious componants. Yet there probably isn't even a Korean word for athiest so there's that. Now you know how a christian regardless of what their beliefs feels when you blame the things done by the Catholic church on them just because of the word Christian.


Now let's take a look at this because I'm amazed.

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

Wow, that's some intense stuff right there. Let's read that again.

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

Ok so if I'm seeing this right there's a line up of guys being told. "Renounce your faith and accept Juche."
(which no one would ever confuse with atheism :eye roll thingy:)
That's sounds pretty simple, then the security guys poured molten iron on them. One at a time.

Come on we better read that again, dimes must have it wrong.

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

Nope so far that's exactly what it said there. So they poured molten iron on them. One at a time. Which sounds bad but as someone in this thread pointed out at least is not nearly as bad as the things the "church" did in the inquisition. Luckly for me my feeble minds can't imagine what that could be but brother I hear it's a lot worse than pouring molten iron on guys. Did that say one at a time?


So after watching your five buddys get MOLTEN IRON POURED ON THEM. All you have to do is renounce your faith and accept Juche. Last guy stood strong. Makes me think those guys have something to believe in.

[muy_thaiguy]

I believe what CA is trying to do here, is show that atheism, like theism, can have more then one side to it, and not always a pleasant one at that. Merely him bringing up Juche (an atheistic ideal that is not, and he has said this, universally shared by other atheists), atheists on here actually start to get a similar feeling that Christians and other religious groups are forced to get whenever someone goes on about the crusades or the Inquisition, etc. The difference is, is that Christians have learned to cope with it and do not deny what happened 500 or 700 years ago, though you get atheists (like mpjh and Iliad) who will firmly deny that atheism is not being used in present day atrocities like what Juche is doing. It is though, under a different set of ideals then what they are more used to, just like the crusades and Inquisition, those were under a different set of ideals then what many people in todays world are used to. Just like the atheistic ideals of Maoist China and Stalinist Russia, both of these were other forms of atheism, but with different ideals attached to them then what most atheists would have.

[Backglass]

:shock:Are you really suggesting that pouring molten iron on a Christian shouldn't be considered that much of a crime because they believe in Heaven? Is it a greater crime to kill an atheist than a Christian?

Huh? Um...no, actually, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that even if I held a gun to YOUR babies head, I couldnt force YOU to to become an atheist. Oh, you might SAY you are to save your child's life, but you would always know that you aren't. And isn't that all that matters to get into your heaven?

Why, if you KNOW there is a wonderful heaven and you are going, are christians so terrified of death anyway?

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, I see this whole situation as just one more example of why throwing our economic power to others is not a great idea.

Granted, North Korea is among the worst, and they are not precisely an economic power. Still, look at the underpinnings that created/allowed that belief system ... compare that to Russia AND Mao, and there is good reason to not just think everyone else will really look out for our interests and freedoms.

[PLAYER57832]

:shock:Are you really suggesting that pouring molten iron on a Christian shouldn't be considered that much of a crime because they believe in Heaven? Is it a greater crime to kill an atheist than a Christian?

Huh? Um...no, actually, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that even if I held a gun to YOUR babies head, I couldnt force YOU to to become an atheist. Oh, you might SAY you are to save your child's life, but you would always know that you aren't. And isn't that all that matters to get into your heaven?

Why, if you KNOW there is a wonderful heaven and you are going, are christians so terrified of death anyway?

Because we are human.

[Backglass]

Why, if you KNOW there is a wonderful heaven and you are going, are christians so terrified of death anyway?

Because we are human.

But you KNOW you have a wonderful party waiting for you. What are you afraid of?

[lgoasklucyl]

This thread makes my head spin. Honestly if you guys think that persecuting people in the name of whatever is wrong, you should be agreeing with CA, Christian, Athiest, smurf or whatever. North Korea treats their people terribly and no matter what the vessel for CA making the point its a correct one. A lot of people are missing the forest through the trees here.

Then you missed a few key statements. I have, in multiple posts, stated my agreement with CA on the fact that word needs to be spread of these atrocities and that individuals need be aware of them. The problem is, CA has blatantly made a thread in an attempt to attack atheism rather than promote awareness and that point needs to be made, especially since it's an illogical attack.

[lgoasklucyl]

The fact that you continue to try and pin these individuals' acts on their being atheists proved your post was an attack and not for awareness purposes.

It is absolutely for awareness purposes. I admittedly took a shock factor approach to get attention, but the basics are here. It is not I but other who attempt to wriggle with semantics. When a Christian is said to have committed a crime I acknowledge it. I do not typically say "They're not Christian" although I can absolutely say "They haven't followed the commandments of Christ". This thread has turned into a mad dash at redefining atheism and religion to make it somehow seem that Juche is religious. I'll even go there, Okay it's an atheistic religion (a religion that claims that their is no god is an atheistic religion-If I were you I'd take snuffkins' advice on that one Iliad).

A thread in which a bunch of long dead people are said to have done terrible things to other long dead people is an attack. We can and should be talking about how we could have a voice to decry this.

The post could have been titled something proper, pinning it on Juche, North Korea, or Il. Your use of semantics in choosing 'Atheists' over any of the more applicable terms is evidence enough that it was meant as an attack.

You know that I support the awareness you're trying to raise, but I do not support the means by which you're going about it. Yes we need to talk about what can be done, but in attacking a broad spectrum of people by using an entirely non-applicable term takes away from the thread. If you want people to discuss things logically and not debate these things, don't frame it as an attack. Quote the sources and use proper terms instead and you will receive a much more supportive and possible constructive response.

[CrazyAnglican]

I am saying that even if I held a gun to YOUR babies head, I couldnt force YOU to to become an atheist. Oh, you might SAY you are to save your child's life, but you would always know that you aren't. And isn't that all that matters to get into your heaven?

Why, if you KNOW there is a wonderful heaven and you are going, are christians so terrified of death anyway?

Obviously the people who were imolated in molten iron were not terrified to the point that they would renounce their faith. While I can see your point about just saying X and living, it doesn't apply for those Christians, who believe that verbally renouncing our faith is turning our backs on Christ. That's a big no-no, and realizing that made possible the persecution of lots of Christians over the years.

[CrazyAnglican]

The post could have been titled something proper, pinning it on Juche, North Korea, or Il. Your use of semantics in choosing 'Atheists' over any of the more applicable terms is evidence enough that it was meant as an attack.

It is evidence of nothing of the sort. I certainly wish to put a spotlight on the atrocities in North Korea, right now. It is certainly more useful that rehashing the Middle Ages ....again. This is an atrocity that we can (and should) all speak out against. If I have put your back against the wall, I apologize, but then think about the Christians whose backs are routinely against the wall when such charges as the following are leveled at us

I have never spoken to or heard an individual speak out against homosexuality publicly on any grounds except religion. That's where my basis comes from. The day I see someone on the picket lines with a sign stating "I hate fags" and not "God Hates Fags" I'll accept someone else being responsible.

How are the Mennonites, the Episcopal Church, The Quakers, or any number of completely peace loving or humanistic (in the religious context) churches to be held accountable for the attitudes of others who merely profess a like faith? That is what is done routinely in this forum. If you guys do not like the spotlight being shone on atrocities according to atheistic doctrine then perhaps you (collectively) should be a bit more careful about the entirely non-applicable terms that you have been using.

I at least have the desire to talk about something that is current and we should know and speak out against. It isn't another thread dredging up crimes that are hundreds of years old.

You know that I support the awareness you're trying to raise, but I do not support the means by which you're going about it. Yes we need to talk about what can be done, but in attacking a broad spectrum of people by using an entirely non-applicable term takes away from the thread. If you want people to discuss things logically and not debate these things, don't frame it as an attack. Quote the sources and use proper terms instead and you will receive a much more supportive and possible constructive response.

A: It is applicable. They are atheists; they are merely atheists who disagree with you on many issues. The fact that there is no universally agreed upon atheistic dogma prohibits you from saying “this is and that is not atheism”. They deny the existence of a god or gods. When you set the bar that low, you can't complain about the quality of the others that join the club.

B: A broad spectrum of people are routinely attacked in these threads, I’m sorry if you object when the broad spectrum includes a group to which you belong. I would like for us to agree not to attack broad spectrums of people at all, but if one group can level the charges then that group can certainly have some leveled at them in kind.

C: I absolutely want the word out about the atrocities in N. Korea. I also want to shock people into hearing themselves and paying closer attention to what they say about other groups based on stereotypes. Both are worthy causes in my opinion.

[brooksieb]

Normally I respect your posts CA and thoroughly enjoy debating with you, but in this case it's pretty obvious you're using the term 'atheism' to try and deter arguments against the wrong-doings of religion, when in fact it is not atheists in any way committing the atrocities. Don't get me wrong, it is horrible what's going on and agree with you that word needs to get out. But when it's posted in the way you did and you continue to argue it's atheists who are wrong, I cannot help but be disappointed in you for having posted this as an attempt to make atheists look bad.

Well ultimately Kim Jong IS a Athiest, he is responsible for all of this as head of state.
Atheism is a Religion/Lack of religon, Duche is a ideology, North Korea is using Atheism and Juche to go side by side.

[CrazyAnglican]

Basically yes and in this case it's a bad mix. Once again I'm not attempting to cast a bad light on the majority of atheists who go about their lives trying to be decent. These guys certainly do not fit the bill as decent though.

[sailorseal]

There is nothing wrong with being atheist

[CrazyAnglican]

I've never said there was, not in this thread or any other. I have merely made the factual statement that certain people in North Korea are attempting to force others to embrace an atheistic doctrine through violence, imprisonment, torture, and execution if they refuse.

On both sides of the border, Dobbs heard horror stories from underground Christians about recent North Korean persecution. Executions and torture may occur in large part in North Korea's prison camp—the gulag holds an estimated 200,000 political prisoners—but they also happen in public. Dobbs gleaned one estimate that the regime kills 300 people a year for their faith. Other well-connected activists report arrests of Christians were higher last year than in 2005, with perhaps 50,000 believers languishing in prison.

Some examples of persecution that Dobbs learned about:

In one prison, a warden hung a Christian man upside down and ordered him to deny his beliefs. Eventually the warden stabbed at him and pushed him to the ground, ordering 6,000 prisoners to trample him to death.
Eight prisoners stayed silent when told to deny the existence of heaven, so an infuriated prison official ordered other inmates to pour molten iron over them.
Some reports say Christian prisoners are deliberately crippled so they cannot walk; others are left naked and so starved they eat the rats scampering in their prison cells raw.

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/2007/0 ... s-in-n.php

The atheists that are carrying out these atrocities are very much wrong, and as such I do see the need in speaking out about it.

[OnlyAmbrose]

This thread makes my head spin. Honestly if you guys think that persecuting people in the name of whatever is wrong, you should be agreeing with CA, Christian, Athiest, smurf or whatever. North Korea treats their people terribly and no matter what the vessel for CA making the point its a correct one. A lot of people are missing the forest through the trees here.

Then you missed a few key statements. I have, in multiple posts, stated my agreement with CA on the fact that word needs to be spread of these atrocities and that individuals need be aware of them. The problem is, CA has blatantly made a thread in an attempt to attack atheism rather than promote awareness and that point needs to be made, especially since it's an illogical attack.

My understanding is that CA made this thread as a parallel to mpjh's "Forced to be Christians" thread. I quote myself, and CA can correct me if I'm wrong:

I think what CA is getting at is this -

the ideology put forth by the North Korean government necessarily includes a lack of belief in God. This belief in God which they lack being the same belief that you atheists lack. They, however, see fit to force that lack of belief on others, for the purposes of their increased power.

You know, that sounds an awful lot like what the Spanish government did to the Jews in the Middle Ages! Well I'll be darned! Let's change the words a little in above statement make it work for the middle ages:

the ideology put forth by the medieval Spanish monarchy necessarily included a belief in Christianity. This belief in Christianity which they had being the same belief that you Christians have. They, however, saw fit to force that belief on others, for the purposes of their increased power.

Wow, it seems to work both ways!

But hey, you don't see Christians crying foul on atheists in general due to these atrocities in N Korea, so we'd very much appreciate it you'd go ahead and stop trying to smear our belief system for something that happened several hundred years ago.

[CrazyAnglican]

Yeah that's very similar on one level to what I was getting at. I do, however, think that as we've gotten more consensus on the situation we should be shifting to what we could do about it. If nothing else making sure that it's not forgotten and allowed to carry on would be as good a start as any.

[Neoteny]

I'm going to have to agree with tonka on this one. While we spend our time debating the pros and cons of theism or atheism, we expect the "loyal opposition" to take some sort of responsibility in condemning the atrocities committed by the extremist pits of the systems. The Juche system, regardless of how debatable it might be, can be described as atheistic, and, as such, we, as atheists, are obliged to recognize and violently resist the worldview. If we do not, we fail to rise above the moderates of theistic religions who tolerate their own extremists, the very people we are usually criticizing. We may not like it, but as atheists, we are going to be associated with the atrocities of this regime, much as we are with Stalin's. Only via leading by example by accepting a fair share of the responsibility for discouraging the methods of Juche adherents can we be justified in our criticism of others. If we cannot accept our own shortcomings, we can't begin to try to help others see theirs.

[CrazyAnglican]

Absolutely, well spoken. The same can be said for any group. It is only in realizing our capacity for evil that we can hope to avoid sucumbing to it. Constant vigilance is needed among all people in fighting against atrocities. How many people in the past have mistakenly thought "That's only possible in ... not here"?

[Frigidus]

Having read the first three pages, I have a question. Are we talking about athiest as in no god or athiest as in no religion? I don't think there's any athiest that attributes attrocities to a god (hell, they wouldn't be athiests). That seems to be a stumbling point for this argument.

[CrazyAnglican]

I'm not sure where you got that, I sure that nobody is attributing anything to a god, since the ideology is one that recognizes no gods. The attempt is being made to force people to give up their religion in favor of it. It is atheistic in nature, some made the argument that it was a state cult, but it is one without a god or gods. Therefore it is an atheistic one. As I've said I'm not blaming any atheist on this site for the existence of this ideology, but still want people to know what's going on.

[CrazyAnglican]

I'm going to have to agree with tonka on this one. While we spend our time debating the pros and cons of theism or atheism, we expect the "loyal opposition" to take some sort of responsibility in condemning the atrocities committed by the extremist pits of the systems. The Juche system, regardless of how debatable it might be, can be described as atheistic, and, as such, we, as atheists, are obliged to recognize and violently resist the worldview.

Well Neo, it does seem that the other atheists on the site seem to be more gung-ho to criticize Christian atrocities of 500 years ago than this one now. I admire your stance of leadership in this regard along with GT, hopefully they'll listen to you. It's the curse of reformers, that it's hard to get people to recognize your point early on. The Reformation was a tough process in the Christian churches, as well.