Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by hecter »

CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.


But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.

Right, but being forced to be Christian is different from being forced to be Roman Catholic.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.


But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.

Right, but being forced to be Christian is different from being forced to be Roman Catholic.


Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

Let's step back for a minute and clarify. I, in no way, hold any atheist on this site responsible for the goings on in North Korea. There are a bunch of decent guys here that just don't deserve to have the name of something they believe sullied in that manner. The North Korean government is a bunch of thugs that are using this idea to maintain power over their subjects. That idea of communism and Juche is helping. Like it or not Juche is atheistic, though.
Last edited by CrazyAnglican on Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by 2dimes »

hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.


But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.

Right, but being forced to be Christian is different from being forced to be Roman Catholic.
Here's one you may not understand until it's too late. I can force you to say you are what ever word I want under threat of nasty things. That won't make you anything in particular. If you come to know the true and living God through his only son Jesus Christ, words and threats will become trivial even if they include the death of your body. Regardless of how horrible that death may seem to a rational person.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

2dimes wrote:Here's one you may not understand until it's too late. I can force you to say you are what ever word I want under threat of nasty things. That won't make you anything in particular. If you come to know the true and living God through his only son Jesus Christ, words and threats will become trivial even if they include the death of your body. Regardless of how horrible that death may seem to a rational person.


absolutely.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by OnlyAmbrose »

I think what CA is getting at is this -

Ambrose paraphrasing CA wrote:the ideology put forth by the North Korean government necessarily includes a lack of belief in God. This belief in God which they lack being the same belief that you atheists lack. They, however, see fit to force that lack of belief on others, for the purposes of their increased power.


You know, that sounds an awful lot like what the Spanish government did to the Jews in the Middle Ages! Well I'll be darned! Let's change the words a little in above statement make it work for the middle ages:

Ambrose paraphrasing some atheist wrote:the ideology put forth by the medieval Spanish monarchy necessarily included a belief in Christianity. This belief in Christianity which they had being the same belief that you Christians have. They, however, saw fit to force that belief on others, for the purposes of their increased power.


Wow, it seems to work both ways!

But hey, you don't see Christians crying foul on atheists in general due to these atrocities in N Korea, so we'd very much appreciate it you'd go ahead and stop trying to smear our belief system for something that happened several hundred years ago.
Last edited by OnlyAmbrose on Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by luns101 »

lgoasklucyl wrote:Is Marxism being an atheist because they don't worship a God and have a set of ideals not based on a higher power?


I do understand that there are some slightly different interpretations of how Marxism should be worked out, but in essence, it is atheistic according to its founders and their later successors of the Marxist message:

"Philosophy makes no secret of it. Prometheus's admission: 'In sooth all gods I hate' is its own admission, its own motto against all gods, heavenly and earthly, who do not acknowledge the consciousness of man as the supreme divinity. There must be no god on a level with it." - Karl Marx, On Religion, Karl Marx & Frederick Engels, (New York: Schocken Books, 1974), pg. 15

"The criticism of religion ends with the teaching that man is the highest being for man" - Karl Marx, Karl Marx - Frederick Engels: Collected Works, 40 volumes (New York: International Publishers, 1976) vol. 3, pg. 182

"Absolute criticism still regards the abolition of religion, atheism, as the condition for civil equality" - Karl Marx, Ibid, vol. 4, pg. 89

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, as it is the spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opium of the people" - Karl Marx, Ibid, vol. 3, pg. 175

"We want to sweep away everything that claims to be supernatural and superhuman, for the root of all untruth and lying is the pretension of the human and the natural to be superhuman and supernatural. For that reason we have once and for all declared war on religion and religious ideas and care little whether we are called atheists or anything else" - Frederick Engels, Ibid, vol. 3, pg. 175

"All religion is nothing but a fantastic reflection in men's minds of those external forces which control their daily life, a reflection in which the terrestrial forces assume the form of supernatural forces." - Frederick Engels, Anti-Duhring, cited in Marx and Engels - On Religion, pgs. 147-148

"The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion." - V. I. Lenin, Complete Collected Works, (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1978) vol. 10, pg. 402

"Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism" - V.I. Lenin, Ibid, pg. 86

"Every religious idea, every idea of God, even flirting with the idea of God, is unutterable vileness...vileness of the most dangerous kind, 'contagion' of the most abominable kind. Millions of sins, filthy deeds, acts of violence and physical contagions...are far less dangerous than the subtle, spiritual idea of a God decked out in the smartest 'ideological' costumes. Every defense of justification of the idea of God, even the most refined, the best intentioned, is a justification of reaction" - V. I. Lenin, Ibid, pg. 122

"We Communists are atheists" - Chou En-lai at the Bandung Conference in April 1955, Communism: Faith and Fallacies, edited by James D. Bales, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1962), pg. 37

"fight for the full victory of atheism" - The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, (Moscow: 1950), cited in Bale's Communism: Faith and Fallacies, pg. 165

"If you are not a convinced atheist, you cannot be a good Communist. Atheism is indissolubly bound to Communism" - Young Communists League's 'Ten Commandments of Communism', Ibid, pg. 37

"Communism has not changed its attitude of opposition to religion. We are doing everything we can to eliminate the bewitching power of the opium of religion" - Nakita Kruschev in speech from September, 22, 1955, Ibid, pg. 165

"The Communist Party aims at doing away with the remnants of the old order, including the religious remnant. An intensification of scientifico-atheistic propaganda is needed in order to raise the cultural level of Soviet citizens and to further their education for communism" - M. T. Iovchuk, The Role of Socialist Ideology in the Struggle Against the Survivals of Capitalism, cited in Gustav A. Wetter, Dialectical Materialism, (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press Publishers, 1977), pgs. 245-246

"As a result of the victory of socialism in our country, the exploiter classes which spread and supported religion and religious and ecclesiastical organizations were destroyed. In this way, the social roots of religion were undermined. As a result of the cultural revolution which has taken place in our country and the spread of scientific atheist propaganda, the overwhelming majority of the population of the Soviet Union has made a complete break with religion and has adopted the position of atheism" - The Atheist's Handbook, (Moscow: 1959), reprinted in English by U.S. Joint Publications Research Service, pg. 117

"The party takes a position of militant atheism and an implacable aggressive ideological struggle against religious befuddlement" - Ibid, pg. 69

"Each party member must be an atheist and conduct active anti-religious propaganda among those not belonging to the party" - Ibid, pg. 222

"Marxists must adhere to atheism because: (1) clergy are anti-communist, (2) religion is philosophically wrong, thereby giving believers a false sense of reality, and (3) atheism supports the workers" - Boris M. Marjamov, cited in 'Face-to-Face Interview with Soviet Atheist Leaders, edited by Frederick Edwords, The Humanist, January/February 1987, pg. 9

"The main purpose of the institute [under the Academy of Social Sciences] is to spread the atheistic world view, the atheistic behavior pattern, the atheistic way of understanding life, understanding ethics, and so on. Beginning in school, we work to bring up all the people in the atheistic world view" - Dr. Victor D. Timofeyev, Institute for Scientific Atheism, Ibid, pg. 9

"Incorporated into every subject is education in the spirit of Marxism, of which atheistic ideas are a part...Besides their regular classes, there is also a program after school when children attend a special study club. Here the teachers utilize motives and slides and lectures on atheism" - Sinaida Vetschenko, Ibid, pg. 9

"The study of atheism is incorporated into the philosophy course." - Yevgenia Ossipova, Ibid, pg. 10

"Children 8 to 14 were enrolled in groups of 'Godless Youth'. These were disbanded before the War [WWII] though the League of Communist Youth continues its atheist indoctrination to this day" - Paul Kurtz, Militant Atheism Versus Freedom of Conscience, Free Inquiry, Fall 1989, pg. 28
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by Iliad »

CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.


But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.

Right, but being forced to be Christian is different from being forced to be Roman Catholic.


Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

Let's step back for a minute and clarify. I, in no way, hold any atheist on this site responsible for the goings on in North Korea. There are a bunch of decent guys here that just don't deserve to have the name of something they believe sullied in that manner. The North Korean government is a bunch of thugs that are using this idea to maintain power over their subjects. That idea of communism and Juche is helping. Like it or not Juche is atheistic, though.

And that slight complication of being a religion. The reason this brainwashing "Obey Obey Obey" religion exists is that the people continue on working no matter how harsh the conditions. There may not be a god but it is a religion. A cult, if religion hits a soft spot for you :P . The horrible crimes are not being perpetuated because of atheism, and atheism is in now way justifying it, or anything of the sort. They are happening because the theocracy with a defacto God-Emperor does not tolerate any other religious beliefs and I'm sure that atheists and Christians are being persecuted alike.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

Iliad wrote:And that slight complication of being a religion. The reason this brainwashing "Obey Obey Obey" religion exists is that the people continue on working no matter how harsh the conditions. There may not be a god but it is a religion. A cult, if religion hits a soft spot for you :P . The horrible crimes are not being perpetuated because of atheism, and atheism is in now way justifying it, or anything of the sort. They are happening because the theocracy with a defacto God-Emperor does not tolerate any other religious beliefs and I'm sure that atheists and Christians are being persecuted alike.


I thought that somebody would get around to deifying Kim Jung Il (a frightening thought) but no in actuality no claim is made and such a claim would disqualify it as a communist (or at least Marxist) government. Kim Jung Il is no de-facto god emperor as ne has made no claim to be. As far as I know the only person to ever suggest his divinity is you, and that appears to be only another attempt to sidestep that Juche is an atheistic doctrine. There can be no theocracy without a god and Kim Jung Il is no god, not even he has publicly made that claim.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by hecter »

CrazyAnglican wrote:Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

See, but by simply calling them atheist is painting them with too broad a brush. You're including so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes a useless and silly way of describing what's actually going on. Hence why calling somebody an atheist is recessive. Sure, a Taoist is an atheist by definition, but it's just so inaccurate to call him that.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

See, but by simply calling them atheist is painting them with too broad a brush. You're including so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes a useless and silly way of describing what's actually going on. Hence why calling somebody an atheist is recessive. Sure, a Taoist is an atheist by definition, but it's just so inaccurate to call him that.


Yet its competely okay when the recipients of the broad brush are Christians? How are the Georgian Orthodox people responsible for acts carried out by the Puritans?
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by hecter »

CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

See, but by simply calling them atheist is painting them with too broad a brush. You're including so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes a useless and silly way of describing what's actually going on. Hence why calling somebody an atheist is recessive. Sure, a Taoist is an atheist by definition, but it's just so inaccurate to call him that.


Yet its competely okay when the recipients of the broad brush are Christians? How are the Georgian Orthodox people responsible for acts carried out by the Puritans?

I never said that. But, in defence of whoever did, the variations in the various denominations are generally subtle at best. You all follow the same religious text of the teachings of the same person(s) and same God. Where as with the atheistic religions there can be and are massive variations between the Buddhist, the Juche, the religionless, ect.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:Absolutely but being forced to be Roman Catholic is by definition being forced to be a Christian. Hence being forced to be Juche is by definition being forced to be an atheist.

See, but by simply calling them atheist is painting them with too broad a brush. You're including so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes a useless and silly way of describing what's actually going on. Hence why calling somebody an atheist is recessive. Sure, a Taoist is an atheist by definition, but it's just so inaccurate to call him that.


Yet its competely okay when the recipients of the broad brush are Christians? How are the Georgian Orthodox people responsible for acts carried out by the Puritans?

I never said that. But, in defence of whoever did, the variations in the various denominations are generally subtle at best. You all follow the same religious text of the teachings of the same person(s) and same God. Where as with the atheistic religions there can be and are massive variations between the Buddhist, the Juche, the religionless, ect.


The problem is that the religious text (especially the gospels) does not support the acts that are blamed on "organized religion" as a whole. On the other hand the people acting out the atrocities in the name of Juche are specifically following the doctrine. Which is more heinous?

Once again, we have an opportunity to talk about a real tragedy that's occurring while we speak. What suggestions do any of you have about how we could marshall support against this?
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by hecter »

Clearly Juche is a much worse religion than Christianity (though, take note, there have been far more deaths and general suffering attributed to Christianity than Juche, but that's more likely due to time than anything else) but you can hardly pin that fact on atheism as a whole. Once again, you'd be painting with too broad a brush. The problem with arguing "which organized religion is worse" with me is the fact that I don't agree with organized religion. Period. I don't like it one bit, as I feel it causes far more problems than it solves.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by got tonkaed »

to be honest neither. When we can come together and say people have done bad things from varying perspectives, its enough. This race to decide who has been worse and how they have done things is as i suggested earlier missing the forest through the trees. 2dimes may have made the best point in the thread when he said that someone can say you are all sorts of terrible things under the sun, it doesnt actually make it so.

The fact that at times people will go to such great lengths to defend people who their share next to no similarity to, outside of a loosely applied label, is rather distressing.

Also fwiw, im not here to say marx isnt atheist, but luns i suggest you read him instead of just getting a bibliography from a source that is heavily anti-marx. Im not saying it would change your mind or even that it should, but i wouldnt want people to learn everything they ever did about a person from a quick set of quotes that are provocative.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:Clearly Juche is a much worse religion than Christianity (though, take note, there have been far more deaths and general suffering attributed to Christianity than Juche, but that's more likely due to time than anything else) but you can hardly pin that fact on atheism as a whole.


The problem here is that it's the same as saying that the acts of a few Christians can hardly be attributed to theism as a whole. Whats theism but the belief in a god or gods? We both agree that Juche is bad (you say it's a religion, okay fine) and we agree that it's atheistic. That in and of itself isn't the problem. People will organize their beliefs and seek out others with similar ones, it's a natural pattern that has even worked itself out in this forum (hence the GH, JFC, etc.).

I don't care whether atheism is seen as the root of this problem. It is certainly not the result of inter-religious bickering among theists as Iliad would have us believe. Atheists clearly have a role in it as Juche is atheistic. Granted its a version of atheism that most if not all of us agree is clearly wrong. Therefore I'm not blaming you for what is going on there, but if you truly think that organized religion is bad; it's would be wise to ponder what might replace it. In the case of Juche it's something terrible. It has been something terrible in many instances other than North Korea.

I still wait for any idea about how to join our voices against this atrocity and stop wasting time trying to point fingers and wriggle free of them.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

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CrazyAnglican wrote:I don't care whether atheism is seen as the root of this problem.

But I do. I am an atheist and I don't want to feel like or have others feel like the things that I believe is the same things that are causing the problems in North Korea. And by saying that these people were forced to be athiests, by atheists, implies that it is.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I don't care whether atheism is seen as the root of this problem.

But I do. I am an atheist and I don't want to feel like or have others feel like the things that I believe is the same things that are causing the problems in North Korea. And by saying that these people were forced to be athiests, by atheists, implies that it is.


Exactly, yet thread after thread in this forum has been devoted to atrocities by Christians who believe things I actively oppose. I even clearly and patiently point out the difference. Yet another thread will come by in a week or so smearing my beliefs through association. The OP's of those threads clearly do care that religion shoud be seen as the root of the problem. To the point that they'd like to pin all conflict on it, a la Iliad.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by hecter »

I don't make those threads, and so, I have no answer for you.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by Iliad »

CrazyAnglican wrote:
hecter wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I don't care whether atheism is seen as the root of this problem.

But I do. I am an atheist and I don't want to feel like or have others feel like the things that I believe is the same things that are causing the problems in North Korea. And by saying that these people were forced to be athiests, by atheists, implies that it is.


Exactly, yet thread after thread in this forum has been devoted to atrocities by Christians who believe things I actively oppose. I even clearly and patiently point out the difference. Yet another thread will come by in a week or so smearing my beliefs through association. The OP's of those threads clearly do care that religion shoud be seen as the root of the problem. To the point that they'd like to pin all conflict on it, a la Iliad.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I did claim that religion was a major cause of atrocities. It is not the only cause, and when an atrocity happens there will be more than one cause and factor, but religion nonetheless has been used as a vessel for evil multiple times, and this is one prime example of that.

Nowhere did I say all conflict was because of it, in fact the opposite, but religion has been a major tool for evil. I am not claiming everyone that follows religion is evil, however I am stating that religion has been used to control the masses for horrendous deeds.

You tried to grab an example, but it was obvious you had a goal to pin persecution on atheists and you would grab anything that would come anywhere close.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

hecter wrote:I don't make those threads, and so, I have no answer for you.


I understand, until now I didn't either. In fact this is, to my knowledge, the first counter thread to those type that has been made. Which ought to count for something for the Christians on this site.
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by CrazyAnglican »

Iliad wrote: You tried to grab an example, but it was obvious you had a goal to pin persecution on atheists and you would grab anything that would come anywhere close.


Absolutely not, There have been many similar instances throughout history of officially atheistic governments carrying out heinous crimes. Religion by contrast has gotten much better over the past few centuries.

Iliad wrote:Nowhere did I say all conflict was because of it, in fact the opposite, but religion has been a major tool for evil. I am not claiming everyone that follows religion is evil, however I am stating that religion has been used to control the masses for horrendous deeds.


So have governments, yet I haven't seen you decrying them. Shouldn't we be decrying North Korea together? My voice is out here saying this is going on and it is wrong. I've stood up and said "Yeah those guys were Christians and did some terrible things" in the past. Why will you not say in return "Yeah, those guys are atheists and are doing terrible things"?

I cannot blame you for wanting to be separated from them. I just as much would like to be separated from the Crusades. Yet, a simple visit to this forum will see another thread in which Christians in particular and religions in general are responsible for "great evil". If I point out how much good is being done in the name of religon, well that's not even fit for conversation in most threads. The incriminations keep coming.


Once again:

Do you disagree with the treatment of people in North Korea and do you have any ideas about how to make our voices heard in decrying the situation?
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by Juan_Bottom »

Allow me to interject.

C'mon everyone!
One world, one people.

We all want to be rightious, but C'mon, you aren't responsible for any of the examples of the self-proclaimed religious or Atheist's crimes against humanity. So let's stop pointing fingers about something that doesn't even matter. You weren't even alive for 99% of it!


That said, I would also like to point out that there is an important difference between the "official" church-of-state carrying out crimes vs people with a specific faith carrying out crimes. And there's also a line between behaving badly in the name of a religion, and a government behaving badly.

For example, the Church of England burning witches VS lynch mobs of Protestants burning witches. Or the atheistic government of the Soviets killing their own people in labor camps VS The Crusaders torturing and killing heritics. Just because America is overwhelmingly Christian does not make the "War on Terror" a religious war. You get me.


While all the major denominations of Christianity all have had their share of "killing in the name of," I don't think you can say that Atheism has any history of "killing in the name of." BUT yeah, some Atheists do bad things too.

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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by MeDeFe »

Couldn't it be the case that the so-called atheistic regimes suppress religion among the population because they perceive it as a competing force that can serve to unify people under a banner other than their own, and that the fact that these religions have a god while the regime doesn't is merely incidental?
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Juan_Bottom
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by Juan_Bottom »

MeDeFe wrote:Couldn't it be the case that the so-called atheistic regimes suppress religion among the population because they perceive it as a competing force that can serve to unify people under a banner other than their own, and that the fact that these religions have a god while the regime doesn't is merely incidental?


Thus breeding loyalty to their regime and not to some deity?
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Iliad
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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

Post by Iliad »

CrazyAnglican wrote:
Iliad wrote: You tried to grab an example, but it was obvious you had a goal to pin persecution on atheists and you would grab anything that would come anywhere close.


Absolutely not, There have been many similar instances throughout history of officially atheistic governments carrying out heinous crimes. Religion by contrast has gotten much better over the past few centuries.

Iliad wrote:Nowhere did I say all conflict was because of it, in fact the opposite, but religion has been a major tool for evil. I am not claiming everyone that follows religion is evil, however I am stating that religion has been used to control the masses for horrendous deeds.


So have governments, yet I haven't seen you decrying them. Shouldn't we be decrying North Korea together? My voice is out here saying this is going on and it is wrong. I've stood up and said "Yeah those guys were Christians and did some terrible things" in the past. Why will you not say in return "Yeah, those guys are atheists and are doing terrible things"?

I cannot blame you for wanting to be separated from them. I just as much would like to be separated from the Crusades. Yet, a simple visit to this forum will see another thread in which Christians in particular and religions in general are responsible for "great evil". If I point out how much good is being done in the name of religon, well that's not even fit for conversation in most threads. The incriminations keep coming.


Once again:

Do you disagree with the treatment of people in North Korea and do you have any ideas about how to make our voices heard in decrying the situation?

Two things

1) I do not actually believe they are atheists, they are religious for Christ's Sake

2) Other atheist doing evil things does not change my outlook on atheism. Humans will do evil, and some of those humans will be atheists.
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