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Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:12 am
by Juan_Bottom
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (Nov.
- A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple or whether they decided to buy him a gun but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," said Sauter, who presided at the wedding of the father and stepmother.
Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:19 am
by DaGip
Juan_Bottom wrote:FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (Nov.
- A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple or whether they decided to buy him a gun but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," said Sauter, who presided at the wedding of the father and stepmother.
Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."
Mark 13:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
The sign of the times.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:03 am
by black elk speaks
I read that right after I took my boys out to shoot my 410 shot gun. I think its important for them to learn safe use of fire arms, but also the responsibility that comes with it. I read that there may have been abuse in the house. Sounds like a messy situation.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:22 am
by PLAYER57832
black elk speaks wrote:I read that right after I took my boys out to shoot my 410 shot gun. I think its important for them to learn safe use of fire arms, but also the responsibility that comes with it. I read that there may have been abuse in the house. Sounds like a messy situation.
I am the parent of a boy who is 8 and, further ADHD. Recently, PA law changed to allow youth hunting, with a mentor. I struggled a LOT with the idea of
my son learning to shoot, hunting. But, here is the thing. We have guns. Just about every house in our county has rifles for hunting (pretty literally). I cannot keep him away from guns. We keep ours LOCKED, but I know many who use "flimsy" gun cabinets and such. I don't let my son go to houses where I KNOW guns are not locked, but how can I really and truly tell? It is essentially inevitable that my son will come in contact with firearms in our area. I want him to know how to use them safely. I don't want it to be the "allure of the unkown".
He got his first turkey last year, at 7. He was proud as a peacock. AND, though school is always a struggle, his behavior has improved TREMENDOUSLY. He knows that if he "screws up" even a little ... NO GUNS!! He knows if he does not fully listen to his father regarding
anything about guns, he will not see them until he is perhaps 16.
And, here is another thing. I also have a relative who is a social worker in a big city. She had a case were a thirteen year old, subject to abuse, hid behind the door one day and stabbed his entire family with a
knife. An eight year old who (apparently intentionally) shoots is a child who was not protected or cared for the way he deserved.
I also, by-the-way, shared the story of the automatic gun that killed another 8 year old (another thread here). HIs immediate response? No responsible parent, no responsible gun dealer, never mind instructor could even think about letting an 8 year old handle
that gun. He (a BIG, burly line-backer of a guy and no weakling!) said HE would have a "hard time" (his words) handling that particular gun.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:47 am
by black elk speaks
The thing is, you have to know your own child. I called our local gun range a while back to see what age limit there was regarding youth access to the range. When the range operator said "Its up to you. You know your child better than we do. And you will be responsible for your child on the range." I was elated to hear that.
To me, it sounds to me like you are using guns to instill responsibility in your son. I think that is awesome. But if you think that your child is not in a position to understand that, then you have the obligation to keep guns from them.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:19 pm
by PLAYER57832
black elk speaks wrote:The thing is, you have to know your own child. I called our local gun range a while back to see what age limit there was regarding youth access to the range. When the range operator said "Its up to you. You know your child better than we do. And you will be responsible for your child on the range." I was elated to hear that.
To me, it sounds to me like you are using guns to instill responsibility in your son. I think that is awesome. But if you think that your child is not in a position to understand that, then you have the obligation to keep guns from them.
Part of the issue is that I have very mixed feelings about guns as a whole. (hunting is absolutely OK, when responsible, other uses I
sometimes question). But, the bottom line is that I married an avid hunter, know the realities of my community, and trust my husband to teach my son was is correct and proper. When it comes to guns and sports, I reserve "veto" power, but essentially leave it up to my husband, since those are his areas of expertise and not mine.
One thing, he is NEVER allowed to touch a gun unless my husband is right there with him. The state mentor hunting rules even specify that the mentor, not the child, carry the gun in and out. The child gets the gun when they are in "position", with the mentor right there.
And, he is being taught a healthy dose of wildlife biology and so forth in the process. (an area that is
both my husband's and my field of expertise)
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:43 pm
by black elk speaks
All people should be so responsible. Sadly, I think these freedoms are soon to be lost. Recent headlines such as the kid that shot himself with the uzi and the ex-con that opened up with an assault rifle on trick-or-treaters as BO (hehe get it, he stinks...) takes office, are going to be fodder for the liberal cannon (pun entirely intended) against an arms bearing society. I think that America is lost.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:32 pm
by GabonX
Juan_Bottom wrote:FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (Nov.
- A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple or whether they decided to buy him a gun but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," said Sauter, who presided at the wedding of the father and stepmother.
Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."
Next time a link would be nice, that way we know where this is coming from.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:53 pm
by PLAYER57832
black elk speaks wrote:All people should be so responsible. Sadly, I think these freedoms are soon to be lost. Recent headlines such as the kid that shot himself with the uzi and the ex-con that opened up with an assault rifle on trick-or-treaters as BO (hehe get it, he stinks...) takes office, are going to be fodder for the liberal cannon (pun entirely intended) against an arms bearing society. I think that America is lost.
I think you have to be
very careful not to lapse into extremism of any sort.
Guns are an excellent example. I am about as liberal as anyone. BUT, that means, among other things, that I
respect other people's right to do as they wish, as long as it does not harm me or others. YOu said it yourself .. not everyone IS responsible as they should be. THAT is what hurts all of us, not
reasonable limits on gun use.
Do I support gun regulations? I support laws that say adults, not kids, own guns and laws that keep people with certain criminal convictions or mental conditions away from guns. I support waiting periods, especially on certain types of guns because they DO reduce (not eliminate) unthinking crimes of passion (particularly in domestic violance situations) without seriously hurting law-abiding citizen's rights to carry. I support
some limits on automatic weapons. I support laws that say you need a permit to have a concealed weapon and, in
some cases (cities, particularly) I support limits on hand guns ... particularly certain hand guns that are used almost exclusively in crimes. AND, I think we are intelligent enough as a society to distinguish these uses from hunting, personal defense, etc.
That is the beauty of being human. We can make choices and distinctions. The beauty of our country is that we celebrate those differances, for good and ill. It is when we lose site of that ability to distinguish situations that problems occur.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:43 am
by Phil1580
Player....very eloquent, bravo. Without getting into the ins & outs of these particular situations, I agree with your points....I am also on the liberal side of things; fiscally and economically conservative/centrist, but socially very liberal. I drive around with my Obama bumper sticker, but I also go out and about armed. RESPONSIBILITY is the key word, and I have no issue with the government (that we have elected) regulating firearms, and keeping those that have no business owning one from obtaining one.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:29 am
by dewey316
PLAYER57832 wrote:I support laws that say adults, not kids, own guns and laws that keep people with certain criminal convictions or mental conditions away from guns.
Already law. and I agree.
I support waiting periods, especially on certain types of guns because they DO reduce (not eliminate) unthinking crimes of passion (particularly in domestic violance situations) without seriously hurting law-abiding citizen's rights to carry.
I am really mixed on this. According to the FBI (Source:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/fuo.txt). 80% of guns used in any sort of crime, are either purchased illegaly on the street, or are obtained by a family member or friend. Only 8% are even purchased at any sort of retail location. Less than 1% are bought at gun shows. I would much rather see our time spent on curbing the illegal/stolen gun trade, then going after the very small number of guns that are purchased through normal chanels. I don't know how much truth there is to the idea that having a waiting period of X number of days is really going to reduce crime at all. I am not able to find really good stats on crimes commited on same day gun purchases, so I can't speak to that.
I support some limits on automatic weapons.
Already law. I for the most part agree, although I really doubt that ciminals are going to spend the type of money needed for fully automatic guns. I will say, those two guys in LA did show us the scary side of what can happen when ciminals do get ahold of them.
I support laws that say you need a permit to have a concealed weapon and, in some cases (cities, particularly) I support limits on hand guns ... particularly certain hand guns that are used almost exclusively in crimes. AND, I think we are intelligent enough as a society to distinguish these uses from hunting, personal defense, etc.
You already need a permit for concealed carry in basicly all states were it is legal. I am a little concerned with limiting hand guns in cities, as we saw in the Hellar case, a handgun is probably the most common home defense weapon. What factor are you using to make a distinction between a handgun that is used "exclusively" in crimes? If you look through the DOJ report in my link above, the types of firearms that ciminals are using, are the dirt cheap, illegaly traded stuff. Most of these are revolvers, or low capacity semi-auto handguns.
That is the beauty of being human. We can make choices and distinctions. The beauty of our country is that we celebrate those differances, for good and ill. It is when we lose site of that ability to distinguish situations that problems occur.
I very much agree. I just hope that the new administration takes the time to look at the statistics available. If they pass any sort of firearms related legislation, I hope that it targets ciminals, and their access to weapons. I fear though, that instead we will get further restrictions and further loss of rights, in the name of keeping the honest, honest.
--John
(since I can't argue with you in the FT, I'll have to do it here.
)
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:52 am
by black elk speaks
For those of you that think you are liberal democrats (voted for obama, but love your guns and expect fiscal conservatism), you are really a libertarian. You should check out Ron Paul. </political plug>
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:12 am
by Skittles!
black elk speaks wrote:For those of you that think you are liberal democrats (voted for obama, but love your guns and expect fiscal conservatism), you are really a libertarian. You should check out Ron Paul. </political plug>
Oh hang on a minute, what's this?
http://stuffgeekslove.wordpress.com/200 ... tarianism/
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:19 am
by black elk speaks
Skittles! wrote:black elk speaks wrote:For those of you that think you are liberal democrats (voted for obama, but love your guns and expect fiscal conservatism), you are really a libertarian. You should check out Ron Paul. </political plug>
Oh hang on a minute, what's this?
http://stuffgeekslove.wordpress.com/200 ... tarianism/
I don't much care for canceled tv shows or zombies.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:32 am
by heavycola
Juan_Bottom wrote:FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (Nov.
- A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple or whether they decided to buy him a gun but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," said Sauter, who presided at the wedding of the father and stepmother.
Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."
Now if more people had guns, none of this would have happened.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:08 pm
by PLAYER57832
black elk speaks wrote:For those of you that think you are liberal democrats (voted for obama, but love your guns and expect fiscal conservatism), you are really a libertarian. You should check out Ron Paul. </political plug>
I was a "card-carrying" liberaterian for a few years, but I firmly believe in public education, national health care, other issues they don't support. "Liberal" best describes me.
My party affiliation is based on the primary in which I want to vote .
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:24 am
by Juan_Bottom
PLAYER57832 wrote:black elk speaks wrote:For those of you that think you are liberal democrats (voted for obama, but love your guns and expect fiscal conservatism), you are really a libertarian. You should check out Ron Paul. </political plug>
I was a "card-carrying" liberaterian for a few years, but I firmly believe in public education, national health care, other issues they don't support. "Liberal" best describes me.
My party affiliation is based on the primary in which I want to vote .
Hear hear!
or "here here!"
Whatever.
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:19 am
by Juan_Bottom
Boy Admits Double Shooting in Videohttp://news.aol.com/?feature=241912Bumpidy bump bump
Re: Slain Dad Taught Boy, 8, to Use Guns
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:52 am
by PLAYER57832
Eight year olds have incredible capability of self-deception. Remember, most kids only really understand lying at about age 5-6 (they seem to understand before then, but don't really).
Beyond that, this is obviously a troubled kid.