Conquer Club

swiftred wrote:Thing is Mandy, even it is mysoginstiuc, free speech etc -you start banning music, where does that lead.

Oh, I agree - just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion.
I know bugger all about it really, as Snorri said - it reflects a culture I have nothing in common with.

Some of the stuff's ok, I suppose, and as an expression of discontent and despair within a society, it's a creative and no doubt appealing one.
And it does call attention to some of the social injustices within a society in need.
But, some of it does glamorize certain behaviours deemed socially unacceptable, the least of which is the misogynistic one.

A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.
Of course it's not the only art form that does this, but it seems a particularly influential one in terms of media entertainment.
And of course, it is a multi-million dollar industry and there will always be those ready to capitalize on and be rewarded by a culture in trouble.

So, no, it can't be banned, nor would I suggest it should be.
Just be nice if such powerful messages were more positive ones.

I will agree that a lot of rap is misogynistic/violent/glorifying drugs. But more of it isn't. It's unfortunate that some of the most popular artists (50 cent, for one) perpetrate this image so readily. 50 cent is a blight on rap music, not only for the content, but because he really isn't very good. 50 cent::rap as Simple Plan::rock Boring, meaningless bullshit.

mandyb wrote:

swiftred wrote:Thing is Mandy, even it is mysoginstiuc, free speech etc -you start banning music, where does that lead.

Oh, I agree - just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion.
I know bugger all about it really, as Snorri said - it reflects a culture I have nothing in common with.

Some of the stuff's ok, I suppose, and as an expression of discontent and despair within a society, it's a creative and no doubt appealing one.
And it does call attention to some of the social injustices within a society in need.
But, some of it does glamorize certain behaviours deemed socially unacceptable, the least of which is the misogynistic one.

A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.
Of course it's not the only art form that does this, but it seems a particularly influential one in terms of media entertainment.
And of course, it is a multi-million dollar industry and there will always be those ready to capitalize on and be rewarded by a culture in trouble.

So, no, it can't be banned, nor would I suggest it should be.
Just be nice if such powerful messages were more positive ones.

This is an incredibly weak argument. You waffle all over the place and have no set conclusion.

Rap is not intrinsically misogynistic.

But country is intrinsically lame.

mandyb wrote:A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.

It's a reaction, not an action. Rappers talk about what they've experienced. Violence and drugs were already normal when they grew up, and that's the reason why their music appealed to others.

pimpdave wrote:

mandyb wrote:

swiftred wrote:Thing is Mandy, even it is mysoginstiuc, free speech etc -you start banning music, where does that lead.

Oh, I agree - just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion.
I know bugger all about it really, as Snorri said - it reflects a culture I have nothing in common with.

Some of the stuff's ok, I suppose, and as an expression of discontent and despair within a society, it's a creative and no doubt appealing one.
And it does call attention to some of the social injustices within a society in need.
But, some of it does glamorize certain behaviours deemed socially unacceptable, the least of which is the misogynistic one.

A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.
Of course it's not the only art form that does this, but it seems a particularly influential one in terms of media entertainment.
And of course, it is a multi-million dollar industry and there will always be those ready to capitalize on and be rewarded by a culture in trouble.

So, no, it can't be banned, nor would I suggest it should be.
Just be nice if such powerful messages were more positive ones.

This is an incredibly weak argument. You waffle all over the place and have no set conclusion.

Rap is not intrinsically misogynistic.

But country is intrinsically lame.

I'm not arguing, merely putting forward a point of view.
And my only 'set conclusion', pimp, is that you're more intent on 'dissin' than discussin'.

Snorri1234 wrote:

mandyb wrote:A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.

It's a reaction, not an action. Rappers talk about what they've experienced. Violence and drugs were already normal when they grew up, and that's the reason why their music appealed to others.

Sure.
Doesn't it serve to perpetuate that lifestyle though?

Here's a quaint little ditty

I always wanted to be a ho

This goes out to all you ladies out there.
A lot of you won't grow up to be lawyers or doctors,
but you have a dream. And I think you should follow your dream.

When you was just a little girl, you used to love nice things
Pretty party dresses, candy and rings
You was your Momma's little angel, Daddy's little girl
They used to fix your hair up in pretty ribbons and curls
Your sex drive was much deeper than the rest of the girls
You used to freak your boyfriends, take them 'round the world
As a teen, you didn't like school that much
Your moms drank, your daddy likes to cuddle and touch
Too much, so you hit the street looking for love
Affection and devotion, met none of the above
Met me in the club working your fake id
Looked me in the face like a slave set free
I said walk into my eyes baby, come with me
I can show you things that you dream to see
Take you off the street get you something to eat
Something nice to wear and a place to sleep
My name is Ice, I'm the nicest guy you're ever gonna meet
Tell me what you want, I'll make your life complete
She said, I always wanted to be a ho
I always wanted to be a ho

You just had to find the player that was right for you,
Now you met the Ice baby, and your dreams came true

The first thing we're gonna do is buy yourself a new dress
Take some pictures, put you in the LA Express
Teach you how to walk in some high heeled shoes
Let you strut your stuff by the House of Blues
Or farther down Sunset where the tricks all cruise
"Are you my pimp?"
Oh dear God don't say that
I'm your manager, your boyfriend, you're agent, your mack
Now I'm a do my hair baby, I'll be right back
Because we gotta look good when we hits the track
Now your real name? "Shirl"
Yeah, we gotta change that
I think I'll call you Apple, cause your ass is kinda fat
How old are you? "16"
Well that's just right
But you're 18 if anybody asks tonight
I'm a teach you how to get this long paper right
Catch a trick, suck his dick, break his ass for life
Cause I love you, that's all you really need to know
I'm 'bout to miss my hair appointment, girl I got to go
She said, I always wanted to be a ho
I always wanted to be a ho

You just had to find the player that was right for you,
Now you met the Ice baby, and your dreams came true

"Now what if I meet a trick that got long cash?"
That's when I call the crew with the black ski masks
But right now we'll only worry 'bout the basic stroll
Hooking up my Cadillac, and upping my gold
A hundred for a full hit, 50 for a hand
Throw in a blow job, they'll f*ck off grands
I may even put you where the real johns at
Some call the strip club, I call the indoor track
They got lap dancers, table dancers, mad back rooms
And you can double up your profit if you take them home
"I wanna be the best"
Well this game's the test
G-string bikinis and silicone breasts
Suckas break themselves just to sniff your nest
And if you get tired, I got crystal meth
"I think I'm in love..."
Baby doll it's on
You were made for me baby, since the day you were born

mandyb wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

mandyb wrote:A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.

It's a reaction, not an action. Rappers talk about what they've experienced. Violence and drugs were already normal when they grew up, and that's the reason why their music appealed to others.

Sure.
Doesn't it serve to perpetuate that lifestyle though?

No, that's a ridiculous presupposition.

That's like saying that country serves to perpetuate poverty (and being a supercilious whiny dick about it). or that saying that Pop music serves to perpetuate longing and loss.

Artists will portray what they know, and if you knew more about the living situation of those people writing poetry about it, you'd understand where they were coming from, instead of constantly putting them down under the guise of "discussion".

None of this against you personally, mandyb, but this thread is so prejudiced I don't even know where to start. It's like the FOX news method of manipulation and no-so-subtle leading questions.

As a quick addendum:

mandyb, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and simply hope that you're ignorant of the reality the majority of these rappers come from. In fact, I'm sure of it, because of the kinds of questions you've posed and the conclusions you hold (that you've made transparent).

The only doubt in my mind is whether or not it is a willful ignorance. Whether or not it is formed by a lack of knowledge or whether it has been fostered, nourished, and developed from misinformation and prejudicial straw man arguments -- fed to you by pernicious personalities surrounding you.

The reality of growing up poor and black in urban America is that it really is a war zone. As soon as you understand that, and I mean REALLY understand it (live it, basically, don't just acknowledge that it exists from the safety of an antiseptic computer lab), then you'll begin to understand the reality behind the romanticism of the warriors portrayed in rap.

Most often, these are tragic heroes. Something the suburban affluent white audience doesn't understand. They aren't surrounded by enough death to get it.

Perhaps you are not either. I don't know your situation and won't presuppose that I do, but I have heard these exact same criticisms, comments, and questions coming from people who are (most often) sheltered and blissfully ignorant about the realities of the world.

Fact is, most rappers don't sugar coat the reality. It is that shocking and scary because it IS that shocking and scary. But to survive it, one must learn how to live with it. And part of living with death is acknowledging it in story and song. It's how we, as humans, process and understand it.

So, while there are plenty of examples of "thug 4 life" individuals, and those that truly do glorify a lifestyle that leads only to death, many of those artists write as many songs romanticizing the tragedies as outlining the consequences of that lifestyle. All too often, cautionary tales are misinterpreted, or willfully misinterpreted.

One more thought.

Why is it considered horrible for people to condemn what the US soldiers are doing in Iraq, and then flip out and get all upset over what the soldiers are doing in the economically depressed neighborhoods in a real life social Darwinism?

Why do US soldiers get a free ride on killing people, but kids that have even fewer options in life get condemned for doing the same thing in American cities?

Or, perhaps more poignantly, why is that the kids who actually manage to escape that world who write about that world, are then condemned for accurately portraying the reality of what is going on right under our noses?

Finally, why are we blaming RAPPERS for a reality they didn't create? Seems like such faulty logic to me.

mandyb wrote:Here's a quaint little ditty

I always wanted to be a ho

For example, this looks like a cautionary tale to me. Everyone knows this is the story of many, many tragically wasted lives.

I'm completely unconvinced that kids from economically depressed neighborhoods will listen to that song and think, "huh, that sounds like a great idea, I'ma go be a meth ho." Maybe affluent suburban white girls will, but only because they are naive, and don't know what a meth ho looks like, or what happens to people who become meth hoes.

See, the real issue here isn't the music, it's that idiot sheltered white kids imitate what was never meant to be imitated. And it's that kind of bullshit that gets headlines.

So maybe that's the crux. The suburbanites need to cloister themselves off even more to try and shut out the evil they only encourage by failing to recognize it's existence.

and, in response to your post, which indeed does include misogynistic themes (but to an end upon which we don't agree), here's a song that Nas did. (and I think this was on the radio quite a bit, back when it was released.)

Nas: I Can

[Kids]
I know I can (I know I can)
Be what I wanna be (be what I wanna be)
If I work hard at it (If I work hard at it)
I'll be where I wanna be (I'll be where I wanna be)

[Nas]
Be, B-Boys and girls, listen up
You can be anything in the world, in God we trust
An architect, doctor, maybe an actress
But nothing comes easy it takes much practice
Like, I met a woman who's becoming a star
She was very beautiful, leaving people in awe
Singing songs, Lina Horn, but the younger version
Hung with the wrong person
Got her strung on that
Heroin, cocaine, sniffin up drugs all in her nose...
Coulda died, so young, now looks ugly and old
No fun cause now when she reaches for hugs people hold they breath
Cause she smells of corrosion and death
Watch the company you keep and the crowd you bring
Cause they came to do drugs and you came to sing
So if you gonna be the best, I'ma tell you how,
Put your hands in the air, and take a vow

[Chorus - 2x (Nas and Kids)]
I know I can (I know I can)
Be what I wanna be (be what I wanna be)
If I work hard at it (If I work hard at it)
I'll be where I wanna be (I'll be where I wanna be)

[Nas]
Be, B-Boys and girls, listen again
This is for grown looking girls who's only ten
The ones who watch videos and do what they see
As cute as can be, up in the club with fake ID
Careful, 'fore you meet a man with HIV
You can host the TV like Oprah Winfrey
Whatever you decide, be careful, some men be
Rapists, so act your age, don't pretend to be
Older than you are, give yourself time to grow
You thinking he can give you wealth, but so
Young boys, you can use a lot of help, you know
You thinkin life's all about smokin weed and ice
You don't wanna be my age and can't read and write
Begging different women for a place to sleep at night
Smart boys turn to men and do whatever they wish
If you believe you can achieve, then say it like this

[Chorus]

[Nas]
Be, be, 'fore we came to this country
We were kings and queens, never porch monkeys
There was empires in Africa called Kush
Timbuktu, where every race came to get books
To learn from black teachers who taught Greeks and Romans
Asian Arabs and gave them gold when
Gold was converted to money it all changed
Money then became empowerment for Europeans
The Persian military invaded
They heard about the gold, the teachings, and everything sacred
Africa was almost robbed naked
Slavery was money, so they began making slave ships
Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went
He was so shocked at the mountains with black faces
Shot up they nose to impose what basically
Still goes on today, you see?
If the truth is told, the youth can grow
Then learn to survive until they gain control
Nobody says you have to be gangstas, hoes
Read more learn more, change the globe
Ghetto children, do your thing
Hold your head up, little man, you're a king
Young Princess when you get your wedding ring
Your man is saying "She's my queen"

[Chorus]

Save the music y'all, save the music y'all
Save the music y'all, save the music y'all
Save the music

pimpdave wrote:

mandyb wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

mandyb wrote:A lot of it though, (the violence, the drugs, the deaths), especially in gangsta rap can only serve to make worse a feeling of hoplessness already pervasive in urban youth.
It's easy to become de-sensitized and accept escalating trends as normal - they're only lyrics in a song after all, but to many they are gospel..sentiments to be emulated, lifestyles to be admired and words to live and die by.

It's a reaction, not an action. Rappers talk about what they've experienced. Violence and drugs were already normal when they grew up, and that's the reason why their music appealed to others.

Sure.
Doesn't it serve to perpetuate that lifestyle though?

No, that's a ridiculous presupposition.

That's like saying that country serves to perpetuate poverty (and being a supercilious whiny dick about it). or that saying that Pop music serves to perpetuate longing and loss.

Artists will portray what they know, and if you knew more about the living situation of those people writing poetry about it, you'd understand where they were coming from, instead of constantly putting them down under the guise of "discussion".
.

I seem to have touched a nerve with you dave.
As I said before, I don't have anything in common with Rap, rappers or the life it depicts. I have no idea if you do either, so, let's hear it from someone who's been there and done that.
And let's hear it from the kids under it's influence.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uYqTvRixDkU

pimpdave wrote:As a quick addendum:

mandyb, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and simply hope that you're ignorant of the reality the majority of these rappers come from. .

Perhaps you're the one ignorant of the reality, dave.
There is no doubt in my mind that for many, growing up in black, urban America really is a war zone...seems some rappers are living pretty well off the misery of others and are in no way helping an already tragic situation.
I find it naive that you underestimate the influence these 'role models' have on kids.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=8N_4N6z0g ... re=related

That was a reasonably well thought out and put together reply.

Thank you, mandyb.

However, you're still missing the forest for the trees. You're still lumping everyone together into one blanket category. You are still making an argument that would be analogous to claiming that Sports promote Steroid Abuse.

Because a bunch of the people there are "fake" athletes. Same way a bunch of rappers are "fake".


To try and equate this to something else, perhaps something with which you ARE familiar (since I am still having a hard time accepting your condemnations and consistent sitting in judgment of something you are UNFAMILIAR with), would you agree that Rock and Roll is Satanic?

(because, you know there are some bands that are, apparently)

Or, go to jonesthecurl's astute thread, Are the Blues Depressing. I don't know if it has kicked off with discussion, but his question is a near perfect analogy for faults in this thread. You are attempting to generalize about a huge group from the sampling of only a few, and within which, interpretations will vary as greatly as the number of people who interpret.



---


One last thing. Of course there are a lot of low class and degenerate rappers out there who disrespect women and rap about misogynistic themes. Also, of course, kids should not listen to that garbage and should be taught the benefits of having a respectful attitude towards women.

Finally, there are more rappers that rap about respecting women and surviving/thriving despite the huge obstacles laid out for kids in life than those who rap about less virtuous themes.

I haven't said that I see your perspective, mandyb, and I would be remiss not to say that I do. I just can't throw out the art form with the bath water, is all.

mandyb wrote:I seem to have touched a nerve with you dave.
As I said before, I don't have anything in common with Rap, rappers or the life it depicts. I have no idea if you do either, so, let's hear it from someone who's been there and done that.
And let's hear it from the kids under it's influence.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uYqTvRixDkU

Most rappers don't do that shit anymore, true. However, ignoring shit like 50 or T.I., a lot of rappers really don't claim to be involved in it anymore either. Most of them ridicule those who still act like that, for example Ice Cube who said: "If your coke-bussines is doing so well, why are you rapping?" Honestly, you really sound like someone who has never heard rap other than that shit 50 Cent and other fake gangsters who are popular spout.

pimpdave wrote:That was a reasonably well thought out and put together reply.

Thank you, mandyb.
.

No, thank you dave. (I can call you dave can't I, or would you prefer pimp?)
I love a bit of magnanimity with my condescension - you're the best!

However, you're still missing the forest for the trees. You're still lumping everyone together into one blanket category. You are still making an argument that would be analogous to claiming that Sports promote Steroid Abuse.

At the risk of sounding like DM, go back and re-read, I think both you and Snore will find that I used key words such as some rappers, especially gangsta rap...etc - these words infer that I'm not lumping all rappers together.
I mean, I would never say that all men were bastards, for example, or all Belgians are shite drivers (actually, that may be one I would say). But anyway, you get my point .
I'm sure you've heard a lot more rap than I have or would want to - doesn't mean that I can't share an opinion...I'm not a chef either, but that doesn0t mean I haven't the right to discuss my likes and dislikes in food.

I haven't said that I see your perspective, mandyb, and I would be remiss not to say that I do. I just can't throw out the art form with the bath water, is all.

Ok.
I hear ya.

Snorri1234 wrote: Honestly, you really sound like someone who has never heard rap other than that shit 50 Cent and other fake gangsters who are popular spout.

So the popular stuff is shit huh?
Is it popular because it's shit? Are these fake gangsters the ones with the fame because of their depiction of women/violence/drugs?
I wonder...

I like rappers honesty -they set a good tone. Singing about just wanting to shag women, and make lots of money -its what a lot of men like doing. Good for them.

so, mandyb,

I see you have begun back tracking and using the "re-read" defense.

I remember reading your vague qualifiers earlier in the thread, but if you recall, I also wrote that it was a waffling argument with no conclusion.

All it did was serve to make generalizing, misguided, sweeping insinuations without ever providing a counter example and assuming that the use of vague qualifiers could absolve one of actually taking a position.

It is classic bad argument, and the kind of drivel better suited for FOX and the manipulation they call news than something you should bother trying to defend now.

You're just trolling. You take no side, and back track when proven overwhelmingly wrong, then accuse the people who demonstrate you wrong of being reactionary. I call shenanigans. Just admit that you're wrong (or mistaken, if you want to save a little face) and drop it.

Then maybe start a thread about a topic you DO understand, or if you don't understand, state that you don't understand and skip making detrimental insinuations (the topic of this thread and it's first post go a LONG way to showing your obvious bias, which discredits any claims you could make to your qualifying vagaries).

Your topic here isn't "Is Some Rap Misogynistic". Just look up and read what it says. Re-read your own first post.

And now I'm done with this thread, it's only going to get people upset and etc. And I'm not trying to make any enemies here, so I'm going to bow out before anyone gets upset and throws a fit (like, perhaps, in the obvious satire of the Random Observations of the Irish thread)

pimpdave wrote:so, mandyb,

I see you have begun back tracking and using the "re-read" defense.

I remember reading your vague qualifiers earlier in the thread, but if you recall, I also wrote that it was a waffling argument with no conclusion.

All it did was serve to make generalizing, misguided, sweeping insinuations without ever providing a counter example and assuming that the use of vague qualifiers could absolve one of actually taking a position.

It is classic bad argument, and the kind of drivel better suited for FOX and the manipulation they call news than something you should bother trying to defend now.

You're just trolling. You take no side, and back track when proven overwhelmingly wrong, then accuse the people who demonstrate you wrong of being reactionary. I call shenanigans. Just admit that you're wrong (or mistaken, if you want to save a little face) and drop it.

Then maybe start a thread about a topic you DO understand, or if you don't understand, state that you don't understand and skip making detrimental insinuations (the topic of this thread and it's first post go a LONG way to showing your obvious bias, which discredits any claims you could make to your qualifying vagaries).

Your topic here isn't "Is Some Rap Misogynistic". Just look up and read what it says. Re-read your own first post.

And now I'm done with this thread, it's only going to get people upset and etc. And I'm not trying to make any enemies here, so I'm going to bow out before anyone gets upset and throws a fit (like, perhaps, in the obvious satire of the Random Observations of the Irish thread)

You are sorely in need of a sense of humour dave.
As for this thread, I started, not because I know all about it, but because I thought it was an interesting subject for discussion.
Seems you're the one taking it all to heart, poor soul.
You have done nothing towards proving me overwhelmingly wrong whatsoever, but you have proven yourself to be exceedingly petty and easily upset when someone fails to agree with you.
I think you should drop it pimpdave (good ides), you're getting yourself into a right little tiz over it - I'd hate for you to be up all night ranting.

You honestly think I was throwing a fit in the Irish thread?
Just throwing some of your flawed logic back at ya, dave - though I did it out of playfulness rather than vindictivness...sorry you couldn't see that.
Suggest you lighten up a tad.

I keep looking at this thread and thinking it says "rape"

mandyb wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote: Honestly, you really sound like someone who has never heard rap other than that shit 50 Cent and other fake gangsters who are popular spout.

So the popular stuff is shit huh?
Is it popular because it's shit? Are these fake gangsters the ones with the fame because of their depiction of women/violence/drugs?
I wonder...

Popular music is almost always shit.

mandyb wrote: I'm sure you've heard a lot more rap than I have or would want to - doesn't mean that I can't share an opinion...I'm not a chef either, but that doesn0t mean I haven't the right to discuss my likes and dislikes in food.

Sure. But you can't go around saying that all food from a certain country is shit just because you've had a few bad snacks.

mandyb wrote:As for this thread, I started, not because I know all about it, but because I thought it was an interesting subject for discussion.

Making blanket statements on something you know nothing about is generally a bad idea for a thread. There was no discussion in your original post, it was a statement saying "lol, rappers hate broads".

You have done nothing towards proving me overwhelmingly wrong whatsoever,

In regards to the "Is Rap misogynisitc?"-question, yes he has.

I can't be arsed to read the thread but generalisations - tut tut

pimpdave wrote:You're just trolling. You take no side, and back track when proven overwhelmingly wrong, then accuse the people who demonstrate you wrong of being reactionary. I call shenanigans. Just admit that you're wrong (or mistaken, if you want to save a little face) and drop it.

Not wishing to take any sides here, but failing to understand how one can backtrack from taking no side, or indeed be proven wrong .