Printing Money vs Honest Value

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Phatscotty
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Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

The time where the Federal Reserve is going to have to actually print all of the "electronic credits" is getting closer. That is beyond dispute. (only 3% of the money supply is actually in paper bills. of that, over 90% of US dollars are held overseas.) The bailouts are only the beginning. Whatever they call the bailouts/liquidity injections in the future will be more of the same. Hell freezes over if all the USD's lose too much value and the world gets out of the dollar/sends them back to USA. That could equal 1 billion dollars for a loaf of bread, of which you have to stand in line for 3 hours and hope for the rain to turn into a slight drizzle...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Economists peddling dire warnings that the world's number one economy is on the brink of collapse, amid high rates of unemployment and a spiraling public deficit, are flourishing here.

The guru of this doomsday line of thinking may be economist Nouriel Roubini, thrust into the forefront after predicting the chaos wrought by the subprime mortgage crisis and the collapse of the housing bubble.

"The US has run out of bullets," Roubini told an economic forum in Italy earlier this month. "Any shock at this point can tip you back into recession."

But other economists, who have so far stayed out of the media limelight, are also proselytizing nightmarish visions of the future.

Boston University professor Laurence Kotlikoff, who warned as far back as the 1980s of the dangers of a public deficit, lent credence to such dark predictions in an International Monetary Fund publication last week. He unveiled a doomsday scenario -- which many dismiss as pure fantasy -- of an economic clash between superpowers the United States and China, which holds more than 843 billion dollars of US Treasury bonds.

"A minor trade dispute between the United States and China could make some people think that other people are going to sell US treasury bonds," he wrote in the IMF's Finance & Development review.

"That belief, coupled with major concern about inflation, could lead to a sell-off of government bonds that causes the public to withdraw their bank deposits and buy durable goods."

Kotlikoff warned such a move would spark a run on banks and money market funds as well as insurance companies as policy holders cash in their surrender values.

"In a short period of time, the Federal Reserve would have to print trillions of dollars to cover its explicit and implicit guarantees. All that new money could produce strong inflation, perhaps hyperinflation," he said.

"There are other less apocalyptic, perhaps more plausible, but still quite unpleasant, scenarios that could result from multiple equilibria."

According to a poll by the StrategyOne Institute published Friday, some 65 percent of Americans believe there will be a new recession.



IMO, People should get out of paper ahead of time and into things more tangible and stable. Some people like to buy silver dimes on Ebay. Some people like to sell them. You can still get a silver dime (any dime pre-1963/90% silver) for around $1.25 U.S. If you don't like the internets, there are coin shops everywhere, and coin shows every weekend.

Some people think it is a good idea to invest 2$ a week and grab a dime here and a quarter there. After a while, you might have a small pile of honest money with honest value. Whether it is worth more or less will depend on the strength of the US dollar, but it will NEVER, EVERRRR, be worth zero. AS a matter of fact, only paper can become worthless, losing 100% of it's value. How much can you get for a stock certificate from Enron today? How about GM bonds?

Given that we are having record deficits of 1.4 trillion/year, (on top of the old record 400 bil), and we are not doing anything to slow down, some might argue that is a very strong case that the silver will be worth more in the future.

I do not like to see my people, or ANY people, fleeced by central bankers just as much as I do not like my children born into impossible debt. This was one of Thomas Jefferson greatest concerns. IMO, Thomas Jefferson was the first Liberal. He emphasized absolute freedom to the highest degree possible. The only prohibitor of freedom would be when you cross into someone elses freedom. Just wanted to share some quotes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcWaCsvpikQ

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."


All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate which would be oppression

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government
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The ground of liberty is to be gained by inches, and we must be contented to secure what we can get from time to time and eternally press forward for what is yet to get.
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AAFitz
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Re: The Tail Will Wag the Dog

Post by AAFitz »

Perhaps its time for those who hold the majority of the wealth and resources to pay a more fair share then to avoid such things. Cheney suggested the deficit doesnt matter when defending his tax cuts on the super-rich. Seems like he was wrong.
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Re: The Tail Will Wag the Dog

Post by Phatscotty »

AAFitz wrote:Perhaps its time for those who hold the majority of the wealth and resources to pay a more fair share then to avoid such things. Cheney suggested the deficit doesnt matter when defending his tax cuts on the super-rich. Seems like he was wrong.


some people say whatever they need to say for whatever they want to get. welcome to politics. Please, leave the policy out of it. The person who said that is a lying piece of shit, and I will just leave it at that.

why would fair share have anything to do with it, when the topic at hand is printing money. When you print this much money, why pay ANY taxes??? There is no need for taxes. is there? Why would people work so hard and hand over 40-60% of their earning to produce the same amount that can be achieved with as little effort as pushing the enter key on a keyboard to print?

And can I ask you one thing. Would it not be more efficient for the wealth holders to share more of their profits with the employees? Why funnel it through the gov't. Every billion dollars you give them, they only get to use 400-700 million of it.

30%-60% is wasted.
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by nietzsche »

damn, I thought I'd find instructions to make phony bills.
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Phatscotty
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by Phatscotty »

nietzsche wrote:damn, I thought I'd find instructions to make phony bills.


No, but there is a chance that people can be enslaved by the debt of their govt's phony bills
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by Johnny Rockets »

Not a bad Idea.

Friend of mine has 4000.00 in one ounce silver ingots. I keep my wealth in drums of honey.
This may sound fucking loony, but honey is an unspoilable food source that is the primary ingredient for many forms of alcohol so the barter value is very high. I already trade honey for milk, beef, pork, chicken, eggs, cheese and preserves. If the shit truly ever hits the fan, my position is pretty secure.

I remember when gold topped 500.00 an ounce and folks were going nuts melting down stuff and cashing it in for dollars. That was when I was 15 ... now its 1025.00 or so?

But you can't eat it....

Paper money was supposed to be backed by gold, now it's backed by collective speculation.

You can't eat that either.

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Phatscotty
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by Phatscotty »

Johnny Rockets wrote:Not a bad Idea.

Friend of mine has 4000.00 in one ounce silver ingots. I keep my wealth in drums of honey.
This may sound fucking loony, but honey is an unspoilable food source that is the primary ingredient for many forms of alcohol so the barter value is very high. I already trade honey for milk, beef, pork, chicken, eggs, cheese and preserves. If the shit truly ever hits the fan, my position is pretty secure.

I remember when gold topped 500.00 an ounce and folks were going nuts melting down stuff and cashing it in for dollars. That was when I was 15 ... now its 1025.00 or so?

But you can't eat it....

Paper money was supposed to be backed by gold, now it's backed by collective speculation.

You can't eat that either.

JRock


Nice reach around to the "you can't eat it". I cannot resist pointing out what else cannot be eaten!

Gold is like $1300/oz. Silver is at 20.

Image

Watch what happens if silver confirms 3% over its previous generational high. If it does....well, you can see the spikes.

Silvers all time high was 55$/oz, in 1981! Adjust that for inflation, which has been severely under reported and exported, silver could hit over $200/oz.
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by saxitoxin »

Phatscotty wrote:Silvers all time high was 55$/oz, in 1981! Adjust that for inflation, which has been severely under reported and exported, silver could hit over $200/oz.


... but just in point of perspective, 1981's silver prices were the result of a conspiracy by the Hunt family to corner the silver market which unraveled after it was exposed in a SEC investigation. Which is not to say silver is not a worthy investment, just that it's hard to imagine it ever eclipsing $15 or $20/oz. even in an apocalyptic, end-times scenario.
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Re: Printing Money...

Post by saxitoxin »

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Silvers all time high was 55$/oz, in 1981! Adjust that for inflation, which has been severely under reported and exported, silver could hit over $200/oz.


... but just in point of perspective, 1981's silver prices were the result of a conspiracy by the Hunt family to corner the silver market which unraveled after it was exposed in a SEC investigation. Which is not to say silver is not a worthy investment, just that it's hard to imagine it ever eclipsing $15 or $20/oz. even in an apocalyptic, end-times scenario.


http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/46843,new ... ichest-man

Driven by Bunker's fanatical belief that a coming apocalypse would spell the end for paper money, the 'Hunch brothers', as they were known in Texas, accumulated around $4.5bn worth of glittering silver, piled up in Swiss bank vaults.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Printing Money...

Post by Phatscotty »

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Silvers all time high was 55$/oz, in 1981! Adjust that for inflation, which has been severely under reported and exported, silver could hit over $200/oz.


... but just in point of perspective, 1981's silver prices were the result of a conspiracy by the Hunt family to corner the silver market which unraveled after it was exposed in a SEC investigation. Which is not to say silver is not a worthy investment, just that it's hard to imagine it ever eclipsing $15 or $20/oz. even in an apocalyptic, end-times scenario.


Yes yes of course. The hunt brothers. I admit I only have the perspective of history available, as I was not around to observe and study it as it happened.

However, $55 does serve a statistical and psychological barrier, right or wrong. Also, silver and it's historical ratio to gold is SEVERELY underpriced. If the silver ratio held, it would already be over 55$, from a gold/history perspective. As it stands, silver is well over 15$/oz. Provided that the deficits of the USGovt are only getting bigger, the fundamentals for gold, the dollars mirror opposite, only grow more bullish on the most fundamental level. Silver will go along for the ride.
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Re: Printing Money...

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Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Silvers all time high was 55$/oz, in 1981! Adjust that for inflation, which has been severely under reported and exported, silver could hit over $200/oz.


... but just in point of perspective, 1981's silver prices were the result of a conspiracy by the Hunt family to corner the silver market which unraveled after it was exposed in a SEC investigation. Which is not to say silver is not a worthy investment, just that it's hard to imagine it ever eclipsing $15 or $20/oz. even in an apocalyptic, end-times scenario.


Yes yes of course. The hunt brothers. I admit I only have the perspective of history available, as I was not around to observe and study it as it happened.


I was a spritely young lad of 44 in my second year as staff counselor at Hohenschönhausen special needs facility. That's the year Blondie's The Tide is High hit the top 5 on the Austrian singles chart. Nostalgia ... :cry:
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

Image

Silver closed over 20$ today. We'll see.
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Real estate seems more worthy in value. People will always need a place to stay, regardless of this economy.

Land is where it's at, and when value is down for it, boy, it's great to have saved ahead of time, waited, then buy.

Gold and silver don't really seem where it's at--especially considering it's past "panic attacks, buy more/sell more schemes."
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

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BigBallinStalin wrote:Real estate seems more worthy in value. People will always need a place to stay, regardless of this economy.

Land is where it's at, and when value is down for it, boy, it's great to have saved ahead of time, waited, then buy.

Gold and silver don't really seem where it's at--especially considering it's past "panic attacks, buy more/sell more schemes."


some may have been parking a little bit of money in gold and silver and "saving" it there, as opposed to 1% interest at a bank or 2.5% interest in MM or 3% interest in CD (if you are lucky). What is inflation....4-6%???

I know a person who invested 3,000 in the gold sector, and used that to buy a house for 86,000. They really only paid 3,000 for it though....

The bank is the last place some people would ever put their money, especially in years when banks are setting records for failure, and fast food restaurants are making it trendy to promote their latest bailout burger and stimulus salad bowls...

I would agree land is becoming more attractive, and it is something tangible, but, Fannie and Freddie, which back over 90% of mortgages in America, are about to go belly up. Uncertainty is a bitch. Too much gov't involvement in real estate now days. Free market rules do not apply as much as they used to...

Home ownership is going to drop for a while. Technically yes that would indicate a buyers market, however, you need the banks to loan a bunch of money, which they may, or very well may not choose to do.
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Certainly, gold does have its advantages, but at this point is it really worth investing into?

Hasn't gold ever dropped in value?
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

BigBallinStalin wrote:Certainly, gold does have its advantages, but at this point is it really worth investing into?

Hasn't gold ever dropped in value?


Sure it has. The kicker is the fundamentals. Gold will most likely only fall when the Dollar starts to show fundamental strength. That aint happening any time soon...

Silver is the way to go. with a dime costing $1.25, how much can you really lose? That why I think silver is better. There is less risk. Plus nobopdy is suggesting to sink your life saving into it. Only about 2 dollar/week



Look what happened to the strength of the US common share of stock (USD) when the budget was balanced in the mid 90's. Look what happened when we starting setting record deficits again in 2006
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Interesting. Thanks, Phatscotty.
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by nietzsche »

Bah, I can turn anything into gold.

Seriously tho, we should put our money together and buy this http://cgi.ebay.com/6200-Oz-Gold-Mix-Bars-Gold-American-Eagles-/330471115774?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf19d0bfe
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

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nietzsche wrote:Bah, I can turn anything into gold.

Seriously tho, we should put our money together and buy this http://cgi.ebay.com/6200-Oz-Gold-Mix-Bars-Gold-American-Eagles-/330471115774?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf19d0bfe


yes, but did you notice how, in 1933, they were partying and singing to the massed about the depression being over(everyone has heard that song). Doubly interesting, this was from 1933, the same year the gov't took everyones gold....

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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by nietzsche »

Phatscotty


I assume you don't needed to, but did you watch The Money Masters documentary?
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty


I assume you don't needed to, but did you watch The Money Masters documentary?


Yes, the whole thing. None of that was news to me.

and BBS, I saw you liked that chart and found another that fills in 08-10. Check the low in 08 compared to the 20 year support levels in the chart below, and you will understand which reality my economics are based in.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by nietzsche »

Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty


I assume you don't needed to, but did you watch The Money Masters documentary?


Yes, the whole thing. None of that was news to me.


How can you stay so calm then?

How can people know that and don't abhor *them* enough to stone them?

In my defense it's too hot in the summer here.
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty


I assume you don't needed to, but did you watch The Money Masters documentary?


Yes, the whole thing. None of that was news to me.


How can you stay so calm then?

How can people know that and don't abhor *them* enough to stone them?

In my defense it's too hot in the summer here.


:lol: There are a few things preventing them. #1, nobody even would believe ya about the subject at hand #2 not many more would even care anyways #3 "they" are wicked brilliant in a whole different level

Sometimes I wonder why even bother with it all. Really, if people are this apathetic, you can't achieve much anyways. To break that chain is going to take a long, LONG time. However, I 100% believe the tea party can be the shot across the bow, at least for the reasons I believe in it.

A lot of these things probably would not happen in an economically fiscal environment that severely punishes cheaters, or at least they will be greatly reduced. That is where I focus. Don't forget, the TEA party is home base for ENDtheFED'ers...

I am calm because I am ready. I am ready because I saw it coming. I saw it coming because somebody gave a shit enough to take some time to explain a few things to me. I have watched and tested and re-tested the theories. No red flags in over 10 years. I say all these things in full awareness that "once you find the key, they change the lock". I am always, ALWAYS watching for the first hint they will change the lock. I don't see anything except for them laughing about how many people don't have keys.
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Re: Printing Money vs Honest Value

Post by Phatscotty »

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