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Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:19 pm
by lgoasklucyl
CrazyAnglican wrote:First of all, I'm sorry if this appears to be a smear of atheism. It is not intended to be, but the people carrying out these atrocities are atheists. Nobody does anything in the name of a disbelief. That alone makes the atrocities attack a convenient one, but the weakness is that people do tend to place their faith in other things once religion is out of the way. The atheists in North Korea have elected to place their faith in a madman. That does not mean that they are not atheists, nor does it mean that they are not engaged in a persecution of Christians on religious grounds. By no means are their actions to be construed as the actions of all atheists. They are, however, the actions of a secular government that exercises extreme regulation of religious activity within its borders. The example I cited was an attempt to make Christians give up their faith in God and to replace it with an athesitic doctrine. Hence it does reflect on atheism. Most atheists are peaceful just like most Christians are, but not all of them.
See, you still cannot pin this on their being atheist since, as you stated yourself, you can't perform acts specifically out of a disbelief in something. These individuals are acting based on the clouded, psychopathic judgment of their ruler not their lack of religion. Being religious or being an atheist are both blanket statements that cannot be applied to these individuals. While most of them may lack a stated religion, their utmost devotion is to Il and their government/'country'. Therefore, there actions are based on this devotion rather than a lack of devotion to a higher power. As you said, their faith is in the madman that is Il. It's that faith that leads them astray.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:22 pm
by 2dimes
There's a problem here with the word "Atheist" but what's that word mean?
Are russelites christian? They don't share the beliefs of most sects that are so one might argue they are not but I think it's fair to call them that. I don't see a problem with it anymore than calling the Juche athiests.
There's allways people in every christian church that are just there because they think they should be for what ever reason. They probably sit on the board of directors and make decisions on everything yet don't know Jesus. How do you know who's who? You don't so you just call them all christians. Of course it's wrong but it's unavoidable. It's just one of the many problems with labelling people.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:34 pm
by CrazyAnglican
lgoasklucyl wrote:See, you still cannot pin this on their being atheist since, as you stated yourself, you can't perform acts specifically out of a disbelief in something. These individuals are acting based on the clouded, psychopathic judgment of their ruler not their lack of religion. Being religious or being an atheist are both blanket statements that cannot be applied to these individuals. While most of them may lack a stated religion, their utmost devotion is to Il and their government/'country'. Therefore, there actions are based on this devotion rather than a lack of devotion to a higher power. As you said, their faith is in the madman that is Il. It's that faith that leads them astray.
By the same reasoning those who are memebrs of cults are not truly religious due to the devotion to one madman rather than placing most of their veneration on God. Are you comfortable with that idea?
By default, any organization that has at its core beliefs a rejection of the existence of a higher power, is an atheistic organization. Just as any organization that has as it's core beliefs that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and saviour could be said to be a Christian one (for better or ill). There is no sense trying to shake this. These people act in a way that you abhor and they should challenge your perception of atheism. If there is no core doctrine other than the belief that there is no god / gods then how do you separate yourself from them. From what I've seen so far it relies on focusing on some other aspect of their beliefs. For instance "They're Juche, Marxist, Stalinist, etc." but that is really little different than saying they're "Roman Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian". The above are all ideologies to which atheism is an integral part, just as the latter are all expressions of Christianity.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:39 pm
by lgoasklucyl
CrazyAnglican wrote:By the same reasoning those who are memebrs of cults are not truly religious due to the devotion to one madman rather than placing most of their veneration on God. Are you comfortable with that idea?
By default, any organization that has at its core beliefs a rejection of the existence of a higher power, is an atheistic organization. Just as any organization that has as it's core beliefs that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and saviour could be said to be a Christian one (for better or ill). There is no sense trying to shake this. These people act in a way that you abhor and they should challenge your perception of atheism. If there is no core doctrine other than the belief that there is no god / gods then how do you separate yourself from them.
I separate myself because I do not devote every aspect of my live to their government and ideals penned by their government. They do have a set of rules to abide by based in their beliefs and I do not. They are a group of individuals whose actions are governed by a set of ideals/rules by that which they are expected to worship: the government.
This is no way speaks to atheism, and should in no way 'shake anyone's perception of atheism'. It should shake mine and others' views of North Korea and their state religion, not lack of belief in a higher power.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:40 pm
by hecter
See, again, going strictly by the definition they are atheists, there's no doubt about it. But they are Juche first and atheist last. They are not being forced to be atheist, they are being forced to be Juche, which is atheistic. If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:44 pm
by CrazyAnglican
hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.
But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:47 pm
by Iliad
CrazyAnglican wrote:Even if some might want to consider it a "religion" (as we've seen the definition of that word seems to shift depending on what the user wants to avoid being associated with) it is still an atheistic one. THese people were certainly being forced to give up the belief in God to be replaced with the belief in the material (hence no god- a- theos).
The telling thing here is the storm of protests:
1) They're not atheists (even though they don't believe in a god/gods)
2) They might be atheistic but they have a religion therefore they're not atheists (yet, their religion holds that the state and it's head are the proper place for veneration)
3) Okay, but it's not carried out in the name of atheism (big deal nothing is- they're still atheists)
If you deny the darkness within yourself, then nothing can save you from it.
Point after point in these threads I've acknowledged the evil done by Christians. I've done so with an eye to the good done by them as well, but you guys seem to want to disavow anyone that happens to be an atheist and is a really evil person. That is part of atheism. If you have the right to choose (in fact to make up) right and wrong for yourself, some people will use that freedom to dominate and perpetrate unspeakable evil. That goes for using religion to prepetrate evil too. We must stand together against evil if we are to be good. To say "religion" is responsible for this and that is just as nonsensical as saying "atheism" is responsible for this and that.
Bottom line:
Does the atrocity in North Korea bug you and are you willing to try to find something to do about it? Or shall we sit here and pointlessly bicker about five hundred year old problems while the ones of today go unanswered?
Big deal?
Okay-once again. There is a difference between atrocities done by people who happen to have this religious stance, and atrocities caused by said religious stance. That is the difference between the causes and fault behind that atrocity.
The atrocities are caused by that religion. North Korea is in no way secular, it actively persecutes all those not following its Juche religion. Yet you insist on pinning it on atheism or atheists, twisting semantics whereever you want.
Atheism is complete lack of any belief in gods or laws. You accuse me of moving the goalposts, but I was talking then about the traditional religions which have a god, unlike the Eastern ones which do not. They do not but they are undoubtedly not atheists, just like Buddhists, Confucianists and Taoists.
CA, there is no such thing as an atheistic religion. Religions vary and they may be about a set of values and beliefs. That is one reason why they are not atheists, atheists do not have unifying values or beliefs just like people who don't support a football team don't have a unifying values or beliefs. Juche's core beliefs are not the rejection of a higher being but self-reliance and the very questionable blind loyalty in the leader. You can try twisting semantics but these people are religious, and deeply so, and they are not atheists or performing this for atheism, this is another religious atrocity.
All you have done is proved me right, by giving example of a religion-induced persecution happening to this day. And for that I thank you.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:48 pm
by Iliad
CrazyAnglican wrote:hecter wrote: If they were forced to be atheist, then they could still practice whatever form of religion (or lack of) as long as it wasn't theistic, but they can't do that, and instead must follow the Juche doctrine.
But Juche is atheistic. If you were forced to be Roman Catholic then you would be forced to be Christian, right? So, thethe attempt was in fact made to force them to embrace an atheistic ideology so the attempt was made to force them to be atheists. It doesn't matter if you agree with the particular form their atheism takes.
It is not atheistic, it is an example of Eastern religions who are more insistent on a set of rules and values.
Your definition of atheism is warped at best.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:50 pm
by CrazyAnglican
lgoasklucyl wrote: I separate myself because I do not devote every aspect of my live to their government and ideals penned by their government. They do have a set of rules to abide by based in their beliefs and I do not. They are a group of individuals whose actions are governed by a set of ideals/rules by that which they are expected to worship: the government.
This is no way speaks to atheism, and should in no way 'shake anyone's perception of atheism'. It should shake mine and others' views of North Korea and their state religion, not lack of belief in a higher power.
Certainly and many, many items separate me from Mormons, Muslims, Zoroastrians, etc. THey are still theistic and many in this forum have devoted pages of diatribe against "organized religion" about items that I do not and would not advocate but still find myself tied to every time I enter the forum. Here is an atheistic doctrine that you disagree with and you should not even have to suffer the indignity of separating yourself from because you're a good guy that tries to be decent. Point made?
Iliad wrote: Your definition of atheism is warped at best.
My definition of atheism is the belief that there is no god or gods. If that is warped tell me how. Your definition of religion began with:
Iliad wrote:Let's see- Religion
[*]Claims that at its source is a holy being and you should not even try to dispute it
[*]Threatens that if you do no follow the god, or that you do not follow the rules set out, you will suffer a punishment nothing else can save you from
[*]Allures with promises of great things in the afterlife if you do follow the rules and the god
And then moved to
Iliad wrote: There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.
Which is clearly a shift in definition to attempt to separate atheism from this hideous, atheistic doctrine Juche.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:56 pm
by 2dimes
This thread is spectacular. "Wait they's not Athiests, we're the good guys. Religion's the thing that makes people bad."
Yeah kind of but everything's religion. It's easy to look on from the outside of it and identify the flaws of that ideology and it's religious componants. Yet there probably isn't even a Korean word for athiest so there's that. Now you know how a christian regardless of what their beliefs feels when you blame the things done by the Catholic church on them just because of the word Christian.
Now let's take a look at this because I'm amazed.
Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.
Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).
"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.
Wow, that's some intense stuff right there. Let's read that again.
Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.
Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).
"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.
Ok so if I'm seeing this right there's a line up of guys being told. "Renounce your faith and accept Juche."
(which no one would ever confuse with atheism :eye roll thingy:)
That's sounds pretty simple, then the security guys poured molten iron on them. One at a time.
Come on we better read that again, dimes must have it wrong.
Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.
Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).
"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.
Nope so far that's exactly what it said there. So they poured molten iron on them. One at a time. Which sounds bad but as someone in this thread pointed out at least is not nearly as bad as the things the "church" did in the inquisition. Luckly for me my feeble minds can't imagine what that could be but brother I hear it's a
lot worse than pouring molten iron on guys. Did that say one at a time?
So after watching your five buddys get
MOLTEN IRON POURED ON THEM. All you have to do is renounce your faith and accept Juche. Last guy stood strong. Makes me think those guys have something to believe in.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:59 pm
by Iliad
It is a religion. Let's not play word games. It is a religion and another example of religion-induced persecution.
You are vehemently opposed to it and I agree. And this is the carbon copy of atrocities carried out by other religions.
The problem is you try to somehow pin this on atheism. Atheism does not have unifying values. IT is simply the lack of religion.
Dimes-it is a religion. How are you trying to blame atheists for this? As I said this is another religious persecution by a different faith.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:00 am
by snufkin
Iliad wrote:There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.
Buddhists and Taoists believe in the supernatural and are of course religions so why bring them up at all?
Confucianism is a philosophy that can be combined with almost any religion.
Can Juche be combined with religious faith and do they believe in the supernatural?
If not then they are
NOT "just like other eastern religions"!
Stop claiming that - IT MAKES YOU LOOK EXTREMELY STUPID
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:02 am
by CrazyAnglican
Iliad wrote:It is a religion. Let's not play word games. It is a religion and another example of religion-induced persecution.
No it isn't, according to you before you learned about them. You quickly redifined religion to dissasociate yourself from them (who'd blame you) and who cares you've merely said that is it's a religion but it's an atheistic one that opens atheists up to the same kind of criticism that gets leveled against organized religions.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:05 am
by 2dimes
Iliad wrote:Dimes-it is a religion. How are you trying to blame atheists for this? As I said this is another religious persecution by a different faith.
Certainly, just like the Mormans are responsible for the crusades. Don't deny these two simple facts of life.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:06 am
by CrazyAnglican
2dimes wrote:So after watching your five buddys get MOLTEN IRON POURED ON THEM. All you have to do is renounce your faith and accept Juche. Last guy stood strong. Makes me think those guys have something to believe in.
amen
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:07 am
by OnlyAmbrose
How's this for a title change "Forced to not believe in god by people who also don't believe in god (and still refusing)"
If we're going to bitch about semantics, that is.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:08 am
by Iliad
snufkin wrote:Iliad wrote:There may not be a god, but it still has a set of beliefs and values just like other Eastern Religions such as Taoism, Confucianism or Buddhism.
Buddhists and Taoists believe in the supernatural and are of course religions so why bring them up at all?
Confucianism is a philosophy that can be combined with almost any religion.
Can Juche be combined with religious faith and do they believe in the supernatural?
If not then they are
NOT "just like other eastern religions"!
Stop claiming that - IT MAKES YOU LOOK EXTREMELY STUPID
CAPS LOCK KEY! UNLEASH THE FURY!! IMPROVE YOUR ARGUMENTS!
Seriously though
By CA's logic all religions that do not believe in a higher power are automatically atheistic. I was just naming some of the less conventional eastern religions
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:08 am
by lgoasklucyl
Bottom line:
They prosecute those individuals NOT abiding by the Juche ideals. If an individual were to say "I refuse to abide by your ideals because my personal ideals as an atheist are conflicting" they would be punished in the same way an individual who came along and said "I refuse to abide because I am a Christian". You cannot tell me atheists do not have ideals, because that's just idiotic. Plain and simple: they prosecute anyone not JUCHE, not anyone no an atheist.
Also, is paganism and/or any other organized religion that worships nature and other objects not religion simply because they do not have a 'God'? Juche expects a devotion and worshiping of the state and a direct following of its policies. That would be called a 'State Religion' rather than atheism. The fact that you continue to try and pin these individuals' acts on their being atheists proved your post was an attack and not for awareness purposes.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:10 am
by 2dimes
I wish I had a dime for every time some buddist or unitarian goes off killin' folk. I'd have more than two then wouldn't I? Religion is bad bad news nothin' but persicution.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:11 am
by muy_thaiguy
OnlyAmbrose wrote:How's this for a title change "Forced to not believe in god by people who also don't believe in god (and still refusing)"
If we're going to bitch about semantics, that is.
Don't think that would fit though.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:12 am
by got tonkaed
This thread makes my head spin. Honestly if you guys think that persecuting people in the name of whatever is wrong, you should be agreeing with CA, Christian, Athiest, smurf or whatever. North Korea treats their people terribly and no matter what the vessel for CA making the point its a correct one. A lot of people are missing the forest through the trees here.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:13 am
by CrazyAnglican
And yet Christians have persecuted and gone to war against other Christians. An athiest who disagreed with Juche would be persecuted (an equally heinous crime), but that does not make Juche any less atheistic. It is an expression of atheism. You may not like the choice that these ahteists make. but they are atheists that have replaced theism with something far more sinister.
got tonkaed wrote:This thread makes my head spin. Honestly if you guys think that persecuting people in the name of whatever is wrong, you should be agreeing with CA, Christian, Athiest, smurf or whatever. North Korea treats their people terribly and no matter what the vessel for CA making the point its a correct one. A lot of people are missing the forest through the trees here.
Thanks GT, a voice of reason as always.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:15 am
by 2dimes
There's the problem with persicution. You need a cause. People love to label things and in some cases it's a little tough to narrow things down neatly.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:17 am
by Iliad
got tonkaed wrote:This thread makes my head spin. Honestly if you guys think that persecuting people in the name of whatever is wrong, you should be agreeing with CA, Christian, Athiest, smurf or whatever. North Korea treats their people terribly and no matter what the vessel for CA making the point its a correct one. A lot of people are missing the forest through the trees here.
Actually this is CA trying to pin atrocities on atheism after the debate about religion causing atrocities. This debate has taken away from the horrible crimes perpetuated by the Norh Korean government.
However CA's only point is to pin this down on atheism, where in fact it is a religion. Not all religions have gods. The government is actively persecuting all those not following its state religion. Any other religions and atheism alike will be persecuted.
Re: Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:23 am
by CrazyAnglican
lgoasklucyl wrote: The fact that you continue to try and pin these individuals' acts on their being atheists proved your post was an attack and not for awareness purposes.
It is absolutely for awareness purposes. I admittedly took a shock factor approach to get attention, but the basics are here. It is not I but other who attempt to wriggle with semantics. When a Christian is said to have committed a crime I acknowledge it. I do not typically say "They're not Christian" although I can absolutely say "They haven't followed the commandments of Christ". This thread has turned into a mad dash at redefining atheism and religion to make it somehow seem that Juche is religious. I'll even go there, Okay it's an atheistic religion (a religion that claims that their is no god is an atheistic religion-If I were you I'd take snuffkins' advice on that one Iliad).
A thread in which a bunch of long dead people are said to have done terrible things to other long dead people is an attack. We can and should be talking about how we could have a voice to decry this.