Logic dictates that there is a God!

[Guiscard]

You need an action to have a re-action. What caused the big bang? where did the conditions necessary for a "big bang" come from in order for it to happen? There must be something eternal that has the ability to create or nothing could exist!

The big bang is the beginning. It comes from all the energy and matter and everything being into a single infinitely small space. It is the beginning. Nothing comes before it. I'm pretty sure every telescope can attest to this with blackness.

You can't get something from nothing. So "something" has had to always exist.

Exactly. The singularity from which the Big Bang came. Or a childish evil God, or a pantheon of hundreds of Gods, or a chimp wearing a top hat...

All of these are equally valid answers, as is your Abahamic God. In fact, bearing in mind the fact that we are basic our debate on logic, the Abrahamic God is probably LESS likely than the Chimp, with or without top hat, because of the logical impossibility that is the problem of evil.

[Frigidus]

You need an action to have a re-action. What caused the big bang? where did the conditions necessary for a "big bang" come from in order for it to happen? There must be something eternal that has the ability to create or nothing could exist!

The big bang is the beginning. It comes from all the energy and matter and everything being into a single infinitely small space. It is the beginning. Nothing comes before it. I'm pretty sure every telescope can attest to this with blackness.

You can't get something from nothing. So "something" has had to always exist.

Exactly. The singularity from which the Big Bang came. Or a childish evil God, or a pantheon of hundreds of Gods, or a chimp wearing a top hat...

All of these are equally valid answers, as is your Abahamic God. In fact, bearing in mind the fact that we are basic our debate on logic, the Abrahamic God is probably LESS likely than the Chimp, with or without top hat, because of the logical impossibility that is the problem of evil.

Of course his argument is that there is a god, not necessarily the Abrahamic God. As I said earlier, the everything needs a creator argument doesn't cut it as the creator would need to be created. Because the theory assumes that nothing has ever simply always existed it technically rules out all forms of monotheism.

[Guiscard]

As I said earlier, the everything needs a creator argument doesn't cut it as the creator would need to be created.

Not if you believe in the Big Bang, I'm afraid...

[Frigidus]

As I said earlier, the everything needs a creator argument doesn't cut it as the creator would need to be created.

Not if you believe in the Big Bang, I'm afraid...

Oh, I do, I was referring more to the idea of a god than other possible origins of the universe. That said, is there really a "creator" in the Big Bang theory? I had been under the impression that it was theorized as a random phenomena.

[Lucky Se7en]

I see a lot of christians saying how the big bang theory couldn't have just happened because the matter and energy had to come from somewhere, but what about God? Where did he come from?

[Guiscard]

As I said earlier, the everything needs a creator argument doesn't cut it as the creator would need to be created.

Not if you believe in the Big Bang, I'm afraid...

Oh, I do, I was referring more to the idea of a god than other possible origins of the universe. That said, is there really a "creator" in the Big Bang theory? I had been under the impression that it was theorized as a random phenomena.

The problem with the 'creator needs a creator' attempt is that if we believe the singularity before the big bang to have existed infinitely we can't really logically denounce a creator who has existed infinitely... Ultimately all the cosmological argument is is a debate over whether causality is infinite (i.e. the Big Bang or God were caused by something else, which was caused by something else etc. etc.) or whether the 'original' state can have existed infinitely until creation. In the Big Bang theory the Bang IS the creator, just as God is, or any other 'first thing'. Ultimately, thats Jay's flaw. He simply doesn't understand the argument.

[Lucky Se7en]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory. It is like trying to comprehend a triangle with only two sides. The only thing I have figured out is that something doesn't have to be created by something to exist. If time is infinite, there was no beginning. If there was no beginning and there is something here now, there must have always been something here.

[Guiscard]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory. It is like trying to comprehend a triangle with only two sides. The only thing I have figured out is that something doesn't have to be created by something to exist. If time is infinite, there was no beginning. If there was no beginning and there is something here now, there must have always been something here.

Time was one of the things created by the Big Bang...

I know it is hard to imagine something without time, but thats what everything was before the Big Bang (or, potentially, before God). In fact, maybe its easier to comprehend infinity if we don't have to think of it as a number of years of centuries...

[Napoleon Ier]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

[suggs]

Sausage roll?

[Snorri1234]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

By it's very nature, infinity cannot be proven to exist or not. It's only useful in mathematical calculations.

[Guiscard]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

That poses significant problems for your catholic God then...

And as for existence, it is perfectly plausible for infinity to exist. Try black holes.

Although Wikipedia is never the best source, its all I could find quickley to illustrate what I've had explained to me by my brother in law, who studies astrophysics.

Physicists have verified that, when a star experiences gravitational collapse, it will eventually shrink down to a point of zero size, and thus have infinite density. This is an example of what is called a mathematical singularity, or a point where the laws of mathematics, and therefore of physics, break down. Physicists have given up hope on the singularity not being real, and have since turned their attention to finding new mathematics where infinities are possible.

[unriggable]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

Well I guess God, in his infinite wisdom, must be a concept too?

[unriggable]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

[Backglass]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

Magical gods don't exist. It's a concept.

[MeDeFe]

Infinity doesn't exist Guiscard.Its a concept.

Magical gods don't exist. It's a concept.

You were fastposted by 28 minutes.

[bryguy]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

Provable u say? then prove it, and what created the stuff for the big bang? what created that stuff? and what created the stuff that created the stuff for the big bang?


(this question can go back as far as u like )

[MeDeFe]

As can the question "who or what created god"?

[Neoteny]

The question of infinity is a tired one. What is infinite, the universe or god? Pick what you want, but there is more physical evidence for the big bang than for god, so I'll stick with the universe (or at least some form of non-supernatural existence).

[Guiscard]

The question of infinity is a tired one. What is infinite, the universe or god? Pick what you want, but there is more physical evidence for the big bang than for god, so I'll stick with the universe (or at least some form of non-supernatural existence).

Exactly.

[unriggable]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

Provable u say? then prove it, and what created the stuff for the big bang? what created that stuff? and what created the stuff that created the stuff for the big bang?


(this question can go back as far as u like )

There's a ton of physics involved. It is really hard to say for a newb like you who doesn't know shit about modern science, but we start with a primordial atom. Understand that there are no dimensions, including time, and the instability of this atom causes the big bang. Everything ever to exist, and all the energy everywhere is compressed into this infinitely small space (they, matter and energy, are actually the same thing at this point).

Now you've got to understand that there are four forces of the universe, gravity electromagnetism and the two nuclear forces, and they were combined into a single force embedded into this primordial atom before the big bang. Within a billionth of a second, gravity breaks off and does its own thing, and not much after that the other three forces break off as well. The big bang happens, and with this release of energy comes things like matter and antimatter (since the two can essentially 'make' each other in equal amounts) along with dark energy and other weird and exotic forces we don't understand.

Now you can deny this all you want, but mathematically this makes as much sense as the idea that water is made up of H2O.

[jay_a2j]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

Provable u say? then prove it, and what created the stuff for the big bang? what created that stuff? and what created the stuff that created the stuff for the big bang?


(this question can go back as far as u like )

There's a ton of physics involved. It is really hard to say for a newb like you who doesn't know shit about modern science, but we start with a primordial atom. Understand that there are no dimensions, including time, and the instability of this atom causes the big bang. Everything ever to exist, and all the energy everywhere is compressed into this infinitely small space (they, matter and energy, are actually the same thing at this point).

Now you've got to understand that there are four forces of the universe, gravity electromagnetism and the two nuclear forces, and they were combined into a single force embedded into this primordial atom before the big bang. Within a billionth of a second, gravity breaks off and does its own thing, and not much after that the other three forces break off as well. The big bang happens, and with this release of energy comes things like matter and antimatter (since the two can essentially 'make' each other in equal amounts) along with dark energy and other weird and exotic forces we don't understand.

Now you can deny this all you want, but mathematically this makes as much sense as the idea that water is made up of H2O.

And where did this "energy" come from?

[unriggable]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

Provable u say? then prove it, and what created the stuff for the big bang? what created that stuff? and what created the stuff that created the stuff for the big bang?


(this question can go back as far as u like )

There's a ton of physics involved. It is really hard to say for a newb like you who doesn't know shit about modern science, but we start with a primordial atom. Understand that there are no dimensions, including time, and the instability of this atom causes the big bang. Everything ever to exist, and all the energy everywhere is compressed into this infinitely small space (they, matter and energy, are actually the same thing at this point).

Now you've got to understand that there are four forces of the universe, gravity electromagnetism and the two nuclear forces, and they were combined into a single force embedded into this primordial atom before the big bang. Within a billionth of a second, gravity breaks off and does its own thing, and not much after that the other three forces break off as well. The big bang happens, and with this release of energy comes things like matter and antimatter (since the two can essentially 'make' each other in equal amounts) along with dark energy and other weird and exotic forces we don't understand.

Now you can deny this all you want, but mathematically this makes as much sense as the idea that water is made up of H2O.

And where did this "energy" come from?

It was there since time began. See, since time is a dimension and there were no dimensions of the universe, it (the ooze of everything) was frozen in space until time, the big bang, and everything began. It was there since the beginning of everything, and everything has a beginning.

[Guiscard]

After an intense couple minutes of thinking, I have come to a conclusion that logic cannot dictate anything about God or the"big bang" theory.

The big bang is perfectly provable - all you need is to look through a telescope and know how far back you look. It seems illogical to us but mathematically it is infallible and may as well be fact.

Provable u say? then prove it, and what created the stuff for the big bang? what created that stuff? and what created the stuff that created the stuff for the big bang?


(this question can go back as far as u like )

There's a ton of physics involved. It is really hard to say for a newb like you who doesn't know shit about modern science, but we start with a primordial atom. Understand that there are no dimensions, including time, and the instability of this atom causes the big bang. Everything ever to exist, and all the energy everywhere is compressed into this infinitely small space (they, matter and energy, are actually the same thing at this point).

Now you've got to understand that there are four forces of the universe, gravity electromagnetism and the two nuclear forces, and they were combined into a single force embedded into this primordial atom before the big bang. Within a billionth of a second, gravity breaks off and does its own thing, and not much after that the other three forces break off as well. The big bang happens, and with this release of energy comes things like matter and antimatter (since the two can essentially 'make' each other in equal amounts) along with dark energy and other weird and exotic forces we don't understand.

Now you can deny this all you want, but mathematically this makes as much sense as the idea that water is made up of H2O.

And where did this "god" come from?

[Backglass]

And where did this "energy" come from?

Jay...we have been through this several times in this thread.

Why is it that YOU can say your magical gods are "eternal and have always been here", yet when an atheist claims the universe is "eternal and has always been here" you roll your eyes.

A double standard amigo.