Immigration

[Guiscard]

Norse, check out the unemployment figures, and the immigration figures, and do the maths. Its not difficult.

And how has the immigration issue affected the British economy, which is enjoing its most sustained peiod of growth since 1945?

Exactly. I think inward migration adds something like 10-15% economic growth each year. Migrant works categorically do not 'steal' jobs from 'native' workers. If that were the case then we'd see spikes in 'native' unemployment in the areas where migrant workers are highest, demographically. We don't.

To an extent true. My liberal principles do make room for economic immigration, however Guiscard, bear in mind the vast majority of "immigrants" to the UK are American and Australian skilled workers who come purely for the job, you then get lots of hardworking indians etc,then you get lots of araab leeches (though I shant say all, forfear of making unjustified generalistaions)

No. I'm talking about A8 migrants specifically (the ones Norse hates with such a passion). The vast majority are not American and Australian skilled workers, they are A8 migrants.

And I really don't wanna hear anymore of what you think about Muslims. It isn't sensible and reasoned debate, its simple hatred and xenophobia.

[Napoleon Ier]

Norse, check out the unemployment figures, and the immigration figures, and do the maths. Its not difficult.

And how has the immigration issue affected the British economy, which is enjoing its most sustained peiod of growth since 1945?

Exactly. I think inward migration adds something like 10-15% economic growth each year. Migrant works categorically do not 'steal' jobs from 'native' workers. If that were the case then we'd see spikes in 'native' unemployment in the areas where migrant workers are highest, demographically. We don't.

To an extent true. My liberal principles do make room for economic immigration, however Guiscard, bear in mind the vast majority of "immigrants" to the UK are American and Australian skilled workers who come purely for the job, you then get lots of hardworking indians etc,then you get lots of araab leeches (though I shant say all, forfear of making unjustified generalistaions)

No. I'm talking about A8 migrants specifically (the ones Norse hates with such a passion). The vast majority are not American and Australian skilled workers, they are A8 migrants.

And I really don't wanna hear anymore of what you think about Muslims. It isn't sensible and reasoned debate, its simple hatred and xenophobia.

I never specified muslim, and I think the question of muslim integrism os relevant in a debate aout imigration anyway. I stated a reality, which is that arab immigrants do not have net contributions to the economy.

I believe A8 immigrants are however some of the more contributing economically, even though the fact is, they bring cheap labour at undeniable detriment to British employment

[Snorri1234]

I believe A8 immigrants are however some of the more contributing economically, even though the fact is, they bring cheap labour at undeniable detriment to British employment

But nobody else wants those jobs. Those illegals take whatever job they can find because for them it is so much better than staying in their country and being unbelievably poor.

[Guiscard]

I believe A8 immigrants are however some of the more contributing economically, even though the fact is, they bring cheap labour at undeniable detriment to British employment

But nobody else wants those jobs. Those illegals take whatever job they can find because for them it is so much better than staying in their country and being unbelievably poor.

They bring cheap labour because of criminal employers, not because of being migrants. They also re-vitalise industries such as areas of agriculture which rely on seasonal employment (for example, my Auntie lives in Norfolk where most of the farmers rely on seasonal migrant labour for their livelihood, and would go out of business if it were not present). I'm afraid that abuse of the system by employers is a simple result of the 'more money is better, end of' philosophy of which Norse seems such a fan (just another untenable part of his whole ludicrous outlook).

[Napoleon Ier]

I believe A8 immigrants are however some of the more contributing economically, even though the fact is, they bring cheap labour at undeniable detriment to British employment

But nobody else wants those jobs. Those illegals take whatever job they can find because for them it is so much better than staying in their country and being unbelievably poor.

They're perfectly legal
their professions are definitely wanted, they wrk usually as builders and in agriculture

[Norse]

I'm afraid that abuse of the system by employers is a simple result of the 'more money is better, end of' philosophy of which Norse seems such a fan (just another untenable part of his whole ludicrous outlook).

I fail to see what people have got against money on these forums.

It's baffling.

[got tonkaed]

I'm afraid that abuse of the system by employers is a simple result of the 'more money is better, end of' philosophy of which Norse seems such a fan (just another untenable part of his whole ludicrous outlook).

I fail to see what people have got against money on these forums.

It's baffling.

I think its the idea that money eventually is valued higher than humanity, large amounts of humanity really that some people think is a little disconcerting, even if you realize the practical necessity in the world we live in.

Im not arguing that money is a bad thing, but i think any decent human being should think that having money shouldnt be valued over humanity. Its the fact that im seemingly incredibly in the minority about this that suprises i think.

[Norse]

I hear what you sat tonky, so let me give you 2 examples:

Tell me which you agree with in these examples..

1. If you walk past a pond and find a child drowning

would you ..

A) jump in to save it and ruin the 100 dollars in your jean pockets

B) ignore it and keep your money safe.

2. If a person is dying on a hospital bed and needs 10,000 bucks for an operation, would you..

A) Commit a serious act of fraud, and steal 10,000 bucks from a "middle-of-the road" person, to save the patient

B) let the patient die.



Now, I hope this doesnt fall onto deaf ears.

Have a good one
Twill

[got tonkaed]

I hear what you sat tonky, so let me give you 2 examples:

Tell me which you agree with in these examples..

1. If you walk past a pond and find a child drowning

would you ..

A) jump in to save it and ruin the 100 dollars in your jean pockets

B) ignore it and keep your money safe.

2. If a person is dying on a hospital bed and needs 10,000 bucks for an operation, would you..

A) Commit a serious act of fraud, and steal 10,000 bucks from a "middle-of-the road" person, to save the patient

B) let the patient die.



Now, I hope this doesnt fall onto deaf ears.

Have a good one
Twill

lol what if my answers were B and then A...

i do understand what your saying. But what if i got 10,000 people to give up 1 dollar?

still on my cynical days (which today is rapidly falling into) i realize tis probably all but a dream.

[Snorri1234]

I believe A8 immigrants are however some of the more contributing economically, even though the fact is, they bring cheap labour at undeniable detriment to British employment

But nobody else wants those jobs. Those illegals take whatever job they can find because for them it is so much better than staying in their country and being unbelievably poor.

They're perfectly legal
their professions are definitely wanted, they wrk usually as builders and in agriculture

And in cleaning toilets and stuff nobody really wants to do. It's not like there is a shortage on jobs in our countries. Immigrants are just way cheaper for the employer which means they get more money.

I think the main problem is not that "they took er jerbs!" but the ridiculous and retarded immigration policy. We let these people in and then don't give them legal status; after which we complain that they're employed for less than minimum wage. The solution consists of 2 parts, we have to do something about them getting in uncontrolled and we have to do something about the ones that are already here. We also need a solution to the problem of them wanting to go here in the first place. Most of them flee because their own country is basically shit, they're poor and often come from highly unstable regions full of war.

[Norse]

What's a dream?

Man, you gotta find hope and love in the paper man. The paper is your friend.

[heavycola]

Norse, check out the unemployment figures, and the immigration figures, and do the maths. Its not difficult.

And how has the immigration issue affected the British economy, which is enjoing its most sustained peiod of growth since 1945?

Exactly. I think inward migration adds something like 10-15% economic growth each year. Migrant works categorically do not 'steal' jobs from 'native' workers. If that were the case then we'd see spikes in 'native' unemployment in the areas where migrant workers are highest, demographically. We don't.

To an extent true. My liberal principles do make room for economic immigration, however Guiscard, bear in mind the vast majority of "immigrants" to the UK are American and Australian skilled workers who come purely for the job, you then get lots of hardworking indians etc,then you get lots of araab leeches (though I shant say all, forfear of making unjustified generalistaions)

The arab world thanks you for your semantic wizardry. Twat.

Guiscard is right. The system that the 'kick em out, string em up, the wogs start at calais' crowd value above all else - free market capitalism, i guess - is the system that has attracted migrant workers here and has created jobs for them to do. Railing against immigration at the same time is nonsensical.

[got tonkaed]

ask me tuesday....im usually quite idealistic on tuesdays...all ready to change the world and like.

the paper probably is my friend, but im not sure hes the type of friend i want to admit to being my friend.

[Snorri1234]

I hear what you sat tonky, so let me give you 2 examples:

Tell me which you agree with in these examples..

1. If you walk past a pond and find a child drowning

would you ..

A) jump in to save it and ruin the 100 dollars in your jean pockets

B) ignore it and keep your money safe.

2. If a person is dying on a hospital bed and needs 10,000 bucks for an operation, would you..

A) Commit a serious act of fraud, and steal 10,000 bucks from a "middle-of-the road" person, to save the patient

B) let the patient die.



Now, I hope this doesnt fall onto deaf ears.

Have a good one
Twill

Interresting case (the second one ofcourse:P). But who says there are only 2 options?

[Guiscard]

I'm afraid that abuse of the system by employers is a simple result of the 'more money is better, end of' philosophy of which Norse seems such a fan (just another untenable part of his whole ludicrous outlook).

I fail to see what people have got against money on these forums.

It's baffling.

Miss the point much?

Cola seems to have given you a hand:

Guiscard is right. The system that the 'kick em out, string em up, the wogs start at calais' crowd value above all else - free market capitalism, i guess - is the system that has attracted migrant workers here and has created jobs for them to do. Railing against immigration at the same time is nonsensical.

I wasn't disagreeing with pure market-driven capitalism in this debate, just pointing out the inherent irony in arguing against mass economic migration and greater migratory freedom within the EU whilst maintaining your attraction to wealth acquisition...

[suggs]

get the blacks out

[Tyr]

what about the jews?

[Guiscard]

what about the jews?

Nah... Its not OK to hate the Jews anymore.

Muslims and Poles, they're fine... Daily-Mail-approved prejudice FTW!

[radiojake]

Hey Norse,

Arn't you immigrating out to Australia soon? Hypocrite??


So much hate and xenophobia in this thread, really sad.

[Nobunaga]

... Build the wall (with razor-wire fences, etc..) across the Texas/Mexico border. Enforce severe security checks at border crossings. Arrest folks attempting to sneak across (sure, deport them straight away, but get their photos and prints for future reference).

... So... who's going to clean toilets, pick fruit and carry stuff around, cheap? Hmmmm... High school kids? No, that'll never work.

...

[Utafar]

... Build the wall (with razor-wire fences, etc..) across the Texas/Mexico border. Enforce severe security checks at border crossings. Arrest folks attempting to sneak across (sure, deport them straight away, but get their photos and prints for future reference).

... So... who's going to clean toilets, pick fruit and carry stuff around, cheap? Hmmmm... High school kids? No, that'll never work.

...

Practical idea FTW

[Norse]

Muslims and Poles, they're fine... Daily-Mail-approved prejudice FTW!

Do you ever find yourself yawning when you read through your responses? I do.

Guissy, among your limited refutation and attack strategies, this is possibly the best. However, I think you will find that you use it in a sweeping and untimely way. I thought we were talking about illegal immigration here? Such as the illegal entry of somalians/algerians etc.

Now, I am sure that even you are aware that polish people are fully allowed to roam wherever they like within the UKsince the expansion of the EU. I find that polish/czech people are, broadly speaking, the best of a bad situation, as they tend to meld into british society slightly better than most other wonderful arrays of other backward, slovenly cultures.

Now, as you should be fully aware, the great majority of illegal immigration results in a long delayed process of housing and benefits before the fuckers are finally deported or allowed to stay. Particularly work-shy cultures such as somali's, sudanese and (generally speaking) the muslim world add nothing positive to our nation. They have large, hungry families that are looked after, fed and watered by soft-touched benefit service. They make very little effort to become a part of society, and prefer to loiter around with their bretheren, jobless, living off of johnny english.

The difference between myself and yourself guissy, you leachourous no-gooder, is that me and my ancestoral lineage has contributed and built towards this economically thriving nation, whereas you and your lay-about lazy-assed waster family has contributed nowt, which would also explain why you have little of no pride in your country, and are willing to give everything away. I suppose it is a vague hope for yourself that one day, when every useful and industrious person has had enough of the UK and left, that this will be not quite so apparant, as your new country men are as inadequate as yourself.

hey Norse,

Arn't you immigrating out to Australia soon? Hypocrite??

Maybe if I were an illegal immigrant jake, you silly little bearded freak.

I am coming over to work and prosper, yes. Apparantly, the indigenous population of OZ seems to have a problem with working. You are missing vital trades-people that are neccessary for the expansion of your country.

I am sure that you will be happy to know that I only come to improve it, it wouldn't be possible for me to claim anything off of the government, except the odd medical check-up.

Not that these particular issues are of concern to a naive airhead like yourself, as you probably dont contribute a great deal to the tax system of your country.... thus substantiating your cripplingly poor foresight.

[heavycola]

I find that polish/czech people are, broadly speaking, the best of a bad situation, as they tend to meld into british society slightly better than most other wonderful arrays of other backward, slovenly cultures.

hahaha yes, the stiff upper lipped englishman is a beacon of self-control, tidiness, hard work and he never ever scrounges off benefits. It must be his german/french/nordic/celtic roots.

Now, as you should be fully aware, the great majority of illegal immigration results in a long delayed process of housing and benefits before the fuckers are finally deported or allowed to stay.

Failed asylum seekers (about 80-90% of applicants fail, if i remember correctly) and illegal immigrants are given a roof over their heads - often in gated compounds or scabby B&Bs - and a paltry amount of food tokens each week provided they agree to be deported. It's called section 4 supprort and if they argue they forfeit all benefits. It provides an absolute bare minimum standard of living, and if you think that is an easy, Royle Family-type life then i don't quite know what to say. I interviewed a failed asylum seeker from Darfur last year, he was sleeping rough in Leeds and dependent on handouts from a church. I had never seen actual destitution in this country before then. If you're homeless, you get medical care, drop-in centres, support if you need it. This guy had nothing, and yet he was still too terrified of the janjaweed militias to return home. Slovenly? A work-shy fucker? Er, no.

Particularly work-shy cultures such as somali's, sudanese and (generally speaking) the muslim world add nothing positive to our nation. They have large, hungry families that are looked after, fed and watered by soft-touched benefit service. They make very little effort to become a part of society, and prefer to loiter around with their bretheren, jobless, living off of johnny english.

a) how many somalis or sudanese have you actually met? And have you really extrapolated these characteristic out to an entire country? The same way you have decided that englishmen are industrious, honest, and never slovenly or backward?

[radiojake]

hey Norse,

Arn't you immigrating out to Australia soon? Hypocrite??

Maybe if I were an illegal immigrant jake, you silly little bearded freak.

I am coming over to work and prosper, yes. Apparantly, the indigenous population of OZ seems to have a problem with working. You are missing vital trades-people that are neccessary for the expansion of your country.

I am sure that you will be happy to know that I only come to improve it, it wouldn't be possible for me to claim anything off of the government, except the odd medical check-up.

Not that these particular issues are of concern to a naive airhead like yourself, as you probably dont contribute a great deal to the tax system of your country.... thus substantiating your cripplingly poor foresight.

That's twice now you've mentioned my facial hair, hardly see the relevance. As for me contributing to the tax system, well that again is irrelevant. You have no idea if I work or not, or how much or little I consume (hence paying more taxes) - I don't consider monetary or industrial output to be a measure of someone's worth.

As for the indigenous aboriginals 'problem' with working here, as you put it. I think there are other 'problems' that this country has to sort out first with reconceliation. Apparently Prime Minister Elect Rudd has said that he will make a formal apology for the stolen generation of the 1950's, and about fucking time too. I think we (and by that I mean the Australian Government and population) have to sort out the horrible mess we have made of their culture, considering this is their country (You would understand that right, Norse?)

This topic is stupid. I guess i'm another those 'bleeding hearts' viewing the world through 'rose tinted glasses' - I'd rather be that than an asshole

[Guiscard]

The difference between myself and yourself guissy, you leachourous no-gooder, is that me and my ancestoral lineage has contributed and built towards this economically thriving nation, whereas you and your lay-about lazy-assed waster family has contributed nowt, which would also explain why you have little of no pride in your country, and are willing to give everything away. I suppose it is a vague hope for yourself that one day, when every useful and industrious person has had enough of the UK and left, that this will be not quite so apparant, as your new country men are as inadequate as yourself.

Nope. The difference between myself and yourself, Norsey, is that I'm not a racist f*ck.

Until last year I lived on an estate in central Leeds where the community was something like 75% Somalian. Can you guess whether these people made up the majority of those dossing in pubs whilst claiming incapacity benefit or jobseekers? I'll help you out... No. They weren't. The majority of the unemployed where us solvenly whites. Some admirable culture we have, eh?