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What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.
This. 'Heaven' is a concept is specific to the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) which all teach that people can go to heaven even if they are not a follower of that religion.DoomYoshi wrote:What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.
riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
That's great, but a lot of non-religous families are falling apart. I know my own family needs 2 cottages because most of them can't stand to be in the same room at the same time. I am disowned by 1 family member, another hasn't spoken to me in years. I'm not allowed to talk to another, my sister pretends she doesn't have a mother, etc. That is from an "evangelistic atheist" family perspective.KoolBak wrote:Mine is the tightest, happiest family I've ever been exposed to.
On the eternity question, a lot of the misunderstanding stems from different worldviews. Classic Christian theologians would argue that you can't be a good person. However, many do disagree about this. Are people generally good or generally bad? I'm firmly in the camp that all people are generally disgusting, with a few exceptions. Some people think that people are generally good, with a few exceptions. I probably won't be able to convince you one way or the other.KoolBak wrote:Can't simply being a good person be a thing without the threat of eternal damnation?
riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
I don’t presume to be the judge, nor does my daughter.DoomYoshi wrote:What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.
Yeah... and they teach that the Truth is Jesus... and if you don;t accept Jesus you ain’t going to Heaven.HitRed wrote:The Catholic Church teaches it is the Fullness of Truth but not the sole holder of truth.Protestants still believe in The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments, Bapism to forgive sins, the Trinity and yes Jesus. Not the Eucharist (some exceptions). Same with Jewish believers, The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments.
The sad truth is not everyone is going to Heaven.
There are two main thoughts on this.
1) God judges you.
2) You or your heart choose your destination of Heaven or Hell.
Yes and No.mrswdk wrote:This. 'Heaven' is a concept is specific to the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) which all teach that people can go to heaven even if they are not a follower of that religion.DoomYoshi wrote:What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.
Basically agree with your world view here.KoolBak wrote:Interesting read.
I was raised, and am still firmly, agnostic. With no built in religious faith and my love of scientific knowledge of the universe (big fucking place), believing in the whole religion thing is a stretch.
However I chose to go to a private Catholic college. Sister school to Notre Dame. Quality of education plus my GF was going there....lol.
Anyhow, they required everyone to take theology and philosophy full time, all 4 years. I was quite nervous of the theology.
Turns out it was completely objective and covered all major religions known. The priest (father?) That taught the judeo christian portion began his class with "The Bible is a work of fiction and we can't prove Jesus existed". The rest of the class busted a nut while I immediately loved this guy. Comes down to faith. Very interesting 4 years if study. I got straight As. My best friend (still to this day), a devout Catholic born and bred, struggled....lol. All of them had a tough time with the other religions.
Close minded, uptight, tunnel visioned, holier than thou jackwagons for the most part. Sad. Religion sposed to make you a better person? Mine is the tightest, happiest family I've ever been exposed to. Can't simply being a good person be a thing without the threat of eternal damnation?
My youngest son's best friend growing up had to stop being friends as his batshit crazy Mormon parents deemed him not appropriate. Had words with them at the grocery store....that was fun. Poor kid now has no friends and us failing in school. Good job parents.
Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.jimboston wrote:I don’t presume to be the judge, nor does my daughter.DoomYoshi wrote:What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.
The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus... i.e. you must accept Jesus as the Son of God and your Savior.
(I don’t subscribe to this believe... just telling you what the Church says.)
I am the one true way to the Father. I am the gateway to Heaven.
I am the gateway, the key that unlocks Heaven for all that choose to seek the narrow way.
All must come to me in the end. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven.
I come to bring all to my one Sacred Heart, the true gateway to my Father in Heaven.
I am the way that all must seek. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven. No one goes to my Father except through the Son.
All must come through me. I am the gateway to the Father.
I don’t think I am arbiter or whether or not Gandhi should be in Heaven.DoomYoshi wrote: Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.
You said Gandhi not being Christian made you question your faith. I was just following this to mean that you think Gandhi "should be" in heaven. So the question becomes then, do you trust yourself to make that call? Or even better, do you trust the priest to make that call?
I agree I don’ think humans can/should pass eternal judgement on other humans.DoomYoshi wrote: I don't think it is up for humans to decide the eternal destiny of other humans. However, it is up to you to decide. If you knowingly choose to reject Jesus, then you reject eternal life.
HitRed wrote:All the following include Jesus referring to himself as the gateway.
I am the one true way to the Father. I am the gateway to Heaven.
I am the gateway, the key that unlocks Heaven for all that choose to seek the narrow way.
All must come to me in the end. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven.
I come to bring all to my one Sacred Heart, the true gateway to my Father in Heaven.
I am the way that all must seek. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven. No one goes to my Father except through the Son.
All must come through me. I am the gateway to the Father.
... and your point?
He’s THE gateway. You gotta go through him. He’s your connection to the Big Guy.
Are you saying that my statement about Catholic Doctrine is wrong?
(Please note that my summary of Catholic Doctrine is just that... a summary... but the essential point is made... you gotta be Christian to go to Heaven. Furthermore note that my own feelings are NOT the same as the summary of Catholic Doctrine that I am writing.)
... also none of you has talked about the evolution of the Church. Are you saying it won’t evolve or will it?
I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.
I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.
There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.
Yes, Gandhi is lovely, in terms of humanity. There is a core problem with how humans define goodness though. We always look down the scale. People justify their own sins by looking at a worse sinner and saying "at least I'm not a criminal in jail" and the criminal in jail says "at least I'm not Hitler" and then Hitler says "At least I'm not NomadPatriot" and so on, and so on, until you get to Satan. However, when you look "up" the scale, you start to realize the problem with our human perspective looking down the ladder. At the top is the one, true, wholly holy and purely good God. His presence cannot abide with evil or sin of any kind and unfortunately, as good as Gandhi might be, he isn't good enough to be in God's presence without perishing. He just can't measure up. Nobody can, and that's why Jesus came, to cover our sins and allow us into the presence of God.jimboston wrote:I don’t think I am arbiter or whether or not Gandhi should be in Heaven.DoomYoshi wrote: Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.
You said Gandhi not being Christian made you question your faith. I was just following this to mean that you think Gandhi "should be" in heaven. So the question becomes then, do you trust yourself to make that call? Or even better, do you trust the priest to make that call?
I do think that he was, by nearly universal accounts, a “good” man. A who helped his people achieve independence and freedom from oppression by preaching peaceful methods. That’s a very laudable and Christ-like accomplishment.
That's fine for you to disagree with a priest. Perhaps Jesus is on your side on this one. One of Gandhi's favorite passages in the Bible was the Sermon on the Mount, which ends with this invitation:More specifically though I DON’T think he’s entrance into Heaven should be determine solely upon the fact that he wasn’t Christian and didn’t believe Jesus was the One True Savior.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Which parts specifically do you reject?I disagree that I am dooming myself to Hell because I ‘reject’ Christ. I don’t reject most of what the Bible states as the opinions of Christ and I accept what is stated as his teachings.... that we should (in general) love and be kind to our fellow humans. I just feel God (if there is a God) will give me a pass on disbelieving in Jesus if I am otherwise a mostly good person.
The head of the Catholic church (the 'Pope') says that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven:jimboston wrote:The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus...
So some atheist Italian journalist with a penchant for controversy surrounding the pope is now the source of Catholic doctrine?mrswdk wrote:The head of the Catholic church (the 'Pope') says that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven:jimboston wrote:The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus...
https://charterforcompassion.org/unders ... -to-heaven
inb4 jim "the pope can't control Catholics and therefore his statements are irrelevant"
Everyone must go through me to reach the Father of all.
Source?HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose
I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.
I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.
There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.
Godjonesthecurl wrote:Source?HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose
I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.
I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.
There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.
You gave this a quote mark. Where is it a quote from?HitRed wrote:Godjonesthecurl wrote:Source?HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose
I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.
I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.
There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.