no God is Omnipotent...

[NomadPatriot]

1st things 1st..
my favorite.. the Definition..

omnipotent - 1.(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

so I will present the perspective .. followed by a simple question.

if you believe in a God ( whatever religion you may be) & you believe your God is Omnipotent, then you should be able to answer the question easily...

Omnipotence on the Deity level entails the God is All-Powerful & able to do anything..
all-powerful.. & able to do anything. both of these things combined at once. there can not be a Omnipotent Being that is only all-powerful or only able to create anything..

so... if you think your God ( or any God ) is Omnipotent..
Can your God Create a rock so heavy that they can not lift it...?

[tzor]

It’s one of the reasons why I hate simple dictionary definitions. The notion of “able to do anything” is a bad summation; a person could be all powerful but not all knowing so not knowing how to do something means they cannot do that thing, even though the reason they can’t do it is not because they lack the power.

I’m going to put that thought on the parking lot because it’s a key notion to understand God. However, for the moment, I’ll stick to definitions.

The question is by its very nature flawed. First, there is the question of infinity, which is a principle of math. You’re effectively saying that is it possible to create a higher order of infinity in one case but not in the other?

But in the second case the question quickly turns into crazy town because of the question of “lift” which implies a gravitational surface to overcome. Once the masses get higher than the mass of the gravitational surface, the whole question is flipped on the head. Once the mass of the item is so great that the surface of the other mass is within the Schwarzschild radius of the mass to “lift” the whole thing collapses into a singularity of silliness.

Thus, the problem fails, not because of the inability to apply power but because of math and the laws of the universe.

And with that, I will head back to the parking lot. There are a lot of things God cannot do; not because he lacks power or knowledge, but because it is not in his nature. Since God created the universe, he cannot go against the laws of that universe he created. He can’t violate logic, or math.

In fact that’s a major constraint right there; if God puts in enough “power” into the universe to destroy the universe then that action would be against his nature and since he can’t violate his nature he would not even think of such a thing; therefore it is not a possibility.

[DoomYoshi]

In short, what tzor is trying to say...
omnipotence doesn't mean the ability to do logical impossibilities. God can't create a 4-sided triangle.
A rock too heavy to lift is a logical impossibility. God can create the largest conceivable rock, but even that can be lifted by Him.

[NomadPatriot]

so.. what your saying is I am correct..
no God is Omnipotent

the question is there to provoke the thought process about Omnipotence...
it could have been
"can God create something so small he cannot see it?"
or
" could God commit suicide?"

I do disagree with a few of your points..

--> 'You’re effectively saying that is it possible to create a higher order of infinity in one case but not in the other?' depends on how you view infinity.. infinity has 2 definitions.. Infinite & a vastly great number.. since nothing is infinite.. the only thing that can be applied is a vastly great number.. it can only be one or the other... not both ...either a God is all-Powerful or able to create anything

--> if God puts in enough “power” into the universe to destroy the universe then that action would be against his nature and since he can’t violate his nature he would not even think of such a thing; therefore it is not a possibility. you are assuming God is concerned with Laws.. or that he has a 'nature' that would prevent him from doing something.. making him .. controlled.. thus.. not a God at all..

[DoomYoshi]

So you only believe in a God that can create a 4-sided triangle?

[2dimes]

The other problem is trying to simplify God and thinking he's just some really old guy.

We can't imagine what God really is because it's beyond the capabilities of our brains but we don't like that, so we try to imagine and describe God but we fail, because it's not possible.

[NomadPatriot]

So you only believe in a God that can create a 4-sided triangle?

I do not believe in any God.. I Trust in the Singularity..

the word triangle is a human concept..
but in human terms.. it would depend on which dimension the triangle is being created within.. 2nd , 3rd or 4th dimension

if you are curious about what I mean by " I Trust in the Singularity".. it is also referred to as 'The Big Bounce' ..

this video explains what that entails starting at the 4:00 timestamp mark.. the video also explains how infinity isn't actually possible.. if you care to watch it all.. it's interesting enough..

[tzor]

so.. what your saying is I am correct..
no God is Omnipotent

No what we are saying is your definition of Omnipotent is inherently flawed. Try the understanding from the Catholic Encyclopedia, "Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible."

"God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power," says Hugh of St. Victor, "and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless."

[NomadPatriot]

so.. what your saying is I am correct..
no God is Omnipotent

No what we are saying is your definition of Omnipotent is inherently flawed. Try the understanding from the Catholic Encyclopedia, "Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible."

"God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power," says Hugh of St. Victor, "and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless."

being non-religious allows me to use definitions from a world view... not one from a single religion's viewpoint. .
denoting a definition from 1 single religion - Catholic - as you are doing entails you are basing your definition of an Omnipotent God from the Catholic perspective...

I am sure you could retrieve a definition of omnipotence of God from every religion. some might be similar. mostly I would guess they are different definitions of the omnipotence of their own God.

but if you are saying the Catholic God does not have the power to do something that is intrinsically impossible... like say turning an apple into an 747 passenger jet .. then he is not all-powerful... a all-powerful God would not be limited in what he can do... irregardless of internal or external factors..

[Dukasaur]

"ill-regardless"?

[NomadPatriot]

"ill-regardless"?

ok you got me on that one. maybe the 3rd time I have ever actually used the word..

[DoomYoshi]

so.. what your saying is I am correct..
no God is Omnipotent

No what we are saying is your definition of Omnipotent is inherently flawed. Try the understanding from the Catholic Encyclopedia, "Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible."

"God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power," says Hugh of St. Victor, "and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless."

being non-religious allows me to use definitions from a world view... not one from a single religion's viewpoint. .
denoting a definition from 1 single religion - Catholic - as you are doing entails you are basing your definition of an Omnipotent God from the Catholic perspective...

I am sure you could retrieve a definition of omnipotence of God from every religion. some might be similar. mostly I would guess they are different definitions of the omnipotence of their own God.

but if you are saying the Catholic God does not have the power to do something that is intrinsically impossible... like say turning an apple into an 747 passenger jet .. then he is not all-powerful... a all-powerful God would not be limited in what he can do... irregardless of internal or external factors..

Why not try the dictionary definition of omnipotence? "Having unlimited or very great power"? Even unlimited power does not allow the logically impossible to occur.

[NomadPatriot]

Why not try the dictionary definition of omnipotence? "Having unlimited or very great power"? Even unlimited power does not allow the logically impossible to occur.

Unlimited
ADJECTIVE
not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent.

"the range of possible adaptations was unlimited"

synonyms:

inexhaustible · limitless · illimitable · boundless · unbounded · immense · vast · great · extensive · immeasurable · incalculable · untold · unfailing · everlasting · infinite · endless · never-ending · bottomless · measureless · inestimable · cosmic · unrestricted · unconstrained · uncontrolled · unrestrained · unchecked · unhindered · unhampered · unimpeded · unfettered · untrammeled · unbridled · uncurbed · total · unqualified · unconditional · absolute · full · utter · ultimate · supreme · sovereign · omnipotent

[tzor]

being non-religious allows me to use definitions from a world view... not one from a single religion's viewpoint. .

I don't care if you worship nothing or the flying spaghetti monster. If you are complaining about someone's term you need to use the definition of that term by that someone's group, not some other group. And since the term is generally used in Christianity, using their definitions is important. If we want to discuss Hindu "Omnipotent" we need to use their definition of the term.

A "world view" can often lead to paradoxes because such definitions are often oversimplified.

[NomadPatriot]

being non-religious allows me to use definitions from a world view... not one from a single religion's viewpoint. .

I don't care if you worship nothing or the flying spaghetti monster. If you are complaining about someone's term you need to use the definition of that term by that someone's group, not some other group. And since the term is generally used in Christianity, using their definitions is important. If we want to discuss Hindu "Omnipotent" we need to use their definition of the term.

A "world view" can often lead to paradoxes because such definitions are often oversimplified.

not sure how you got I was complaining about anything.

I used the generalized definition of Omnipotent on the 'deity' level as to not insist one religions definition was of greater importance to reference than another religions.

you referenced the Catholic definition. I responded to that definition from that religion noting that if the Catholic God was all-powerful / almighty. then nothing would be intrinsically impossible for him to do. ..

you did not dispute that

you only want to point out the importance of defining each religions omnipotence definition.. you referenced the Hindu religion..

the Hindi definition is --> the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power

'unlimited power' can not be limited by ones own nature or the notion something is intrinsically impossible.

[jonesthecurl]

The "heavy stone" question is a silly one.To begin with, the weight of the stone would be in relation to the planet (or whatever) it's lifted from. Which would obviously have more masss than the "heavy stone". The question itself doesn't really mean anything.
As I've said in these fora before, a better question for an omnipotent god would be "Could he create a universe which he was then unable to interfere in?" - the corollary to which is "...and did he?"

[NomadPatriot]

The "heavy stone" question is a silly one.To begin with, the weight of the stone would be in relation to the planet (or whatever) it's lifted from. Which would obviously have more masss than the "heavy stone". The question itself doesn't really mean anything.
As I've said in these fora before, a better question for an omnipotent god would be "Could he create a universe which he was then unable to interfere in?" - the corollary to which is "...and did he?"

you can call my question silly all you want..
but your question has it's own problem..
your question asks " could he create A universe..."
THE Universe is what we currently live within..

A Universe can be defined as --> •a particular sphere of activity, interest, or experience .. or the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated.

so yes .. he could if that God was indeed Omnipotent..

technically any forum thread here on CC.. can be A Universe.. by that definition..

[jonesthecurl]

I'm not always entirely sure that all CC members inhabit the same universe that I do.

[mookiemcgee]

I fail to see why anyone assumes an omnipotent god couldn't do something that seems intrinsically impossible to humans. Doesn't believing in an omnipotent god require believing that he knows more than we do and is presumable capable of things we can't even comprehend. Presumably things we 'discover', 'learn', or 'begin to comprehend" are things god was already aware of.

Faith is by definition belief in something that cannot or is not proven. Creating some logic trap only proves humans aren't capable of rationally understanding this god's power, it does not in any way disprove this god has said power.

I say this from the perspective of a non-believer...

Also in regards to the definition of universe, i would add the following Bill Hicks quote to the discussion

Did you know that every time a guy comes, he comes two-hundred million sperm? One out of two-hundred million – that load, we're only talking about one load. What are the fucking odds? Do you know what that means? I've wiped nations off of my chest with a grey gym sock. Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel! I've tossed universes in my underpants while napping. Boom! A Milky way shoots into my jockey shorts: "Unngh … what's for fucking breakfast?!"

[NomadPatriot]

religion says their god is omnipotent. then their own doctrines argue why he isn't.. as Tzor pointed out with the Catholic intrinsically impossible notion..

a rock is such a simple thing.. yet it destroys so much....

[jonesthecurl]

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone so heavy God can't pick it up.

[DoomYoshi]

Why not try the dictionary definition of omnipotence? "Having unlimited or very great power"? Even unlimited power does not allow the logically impossible to occur.

Unlimited
ADJECTIVE
not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent.

That is precisely what the word means. It means there is no limit to the powers. All possible powers would exist in an omnipotent God (if there is an omnipotent God). Doing a logically impossible thing is not a possible power.

Your straw man argument is not very original."religion" is not a person who says things.

It is also curiously the exact same discussion my friends and I had in grade 10, which is why I find it difficult to believe you are actually an adult.

[mookiemcgee]

Why not try the dictionary definition of omnipotence? "Having unlimited or very great power"? Even unlimited power does not allow the logically impossible to occur.

Unlimited
ADJECTIVE
not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent.

That is precisely what the word means. It means there is no limit to the powers. All possible powers would exist in an omnipotent God (if there is an omnipotent God). Doing a logically impossible thing is not a possible power.

Your straw man argument is not very original."religion" is not a person who says things.

It is also curiously the exact same discussion my friends and I had in grade 10, which is why I find it difficult to believe you are actually an adult.

InB4 Llama awards thread-win to Doom Yoshi.

[mookiemcgee]

a rock is such a simple thing.. yet it destroys so much....

So this thread is now about your mom's crack addiction? Can we stay on topic please!

[NomadPatriot]

https://www.listia.com/profile/1696556
That is precisely what the word means. It means there is no limit to the powers. All possible powers would exist in an omnipotent God (if there is an omnipotent God). Doing a logically impossible thing is not a possible power.

.

How is Unlimited 'limited' to only what is possible...?
you are inserting 'Possible" into the definition in order to maintain your narrative. you contradict yourself in the very next sentence you wrote.

1st you wrote " It means there is no limit to the powers"
then in the very next sentence you say " All possible powers would exist in an omnipotent God"

unlimited can not be 'limited' to what is possible .. read the definition --> "not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent."

not limited or restricted in terms of extent.

saying 'unlimited power' is a power to do only what is 'possible' is limiting it.. it is restricting the extent of that power.