INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Pikanchion]

OK pika,

Chap is on the clock. How much time does he get?

idk, 24 hours, 36 maybe?

[blacky365]

blacky,

You say your N1 result was "No Result". Was it worded like that or was it that you never got a chance to perform your night action because you were poisoned 1st?

The response was as I described earlier... I could see my target in the distance and as I was swimming towards it I felt a pain on the side and I was poisoned.

Ok, that's different than No Result. You never got to perform your action.

Oops, my bad... sorry

[Skoffin]

Lol if everyone gets possibly 38 hours to answer we'll literally run out the clock
also I'm not a joker

[Skoffin]

oops meant jester

Chap, how come you did not google the role traitor when you saw it appear?

[Skoffin]

Another reason I hate these mass claim methods - everyone takes it as an oppourtunity to go silent.
So anyone else here have more than one victory condition or bonuses?

[Ragian]

I have several bonuses. Weirdly, my win condition isn't in my role pm

[blacky365]

Lol if everyone gets possibly 38 hours to answer we'll literally run out the clock
also I'm not a joker

A very active Chap has suddenly gone quiet... I will be voting chap this time tomorrow if no response.

I have several bonuses. Weirdly, my win condition isn't in my role pm

Same here... I just presumed that it means town have to win

[Skoffin]

I have several bonuses. Weirdly, my win condition isn't in my role pm

You're on to me but don't tell anyone

[TX AG 90]

I have several bonuses. Weirdly, my win condition isn't in my role pm

Good catch Ragian.

I doubt many townies have a win condition other than Town Wins...

Doesn't make skoffin scum, but she is turning into another jfm with a little bit of dakky thrown in.

[Sirius Kase]

So, we have Pika wiretapper and Blacky the maybe cop. Who do we trust?

Why not trust aage, the confirmed Town?

I still don't like that answer. Because it's not an answer.

It's not about trusting aage, it's just without knowing WHY aage thought BJ was town, we don't know if he was mistaken or not (and he's too dead to ask). There have been tons of incorrect assumptions made so far and that could have been one of them.

Someone mentioned that scum may have targeted aage that night because he misaligned BJ and they wanted to lock in the dying man's last words as a misdirect play. Totally plausible.

My thoughts were similar, so I didn't express them at the time.

Trusting Pika depends on trusting Buj which depends on trusting Aage who might have been wrong. We have no way of questioning Aage, so we need to focus on whether we can trust Buj and Pika or whether we can trust Blacky. Trusting Pika relies on his demonstrated ability to read Buj's PM one night. Very convincing until you realize that scum can communicate in secret. We need another night, another PM, preferably from someone known to be town. Then there is Blacky. He claims to be an investigator, but he claimed to investigate Skoffin, who wasn't at all cooperative. He needs another try, he needs to investigate someone known to be town.

Claptrap and Rage also claim investigative abilities, but Rage is passive, and Claptrap needs a complicated bus driving scheme that might have only been good for one night. He was on the right track, with divide and conquer. But now, his tacit refusal to claim, I wish he'd outright state that he is refusing to claim. We can't do a mass claim without cooperation. If he interpret his silence as admission of scumminess and he flips town, then the mass claim thing falls apart.

So, I'm still focused on who do we trust between Pika and Blacky? It's not enough knowing what they can do, must know alignment, too. We should test them. I was tempted to suggest having them investigate each other, but surely one would lie and the other wouldn't, and we wouldn't have learned anything. I can see from my forum searches that Pika has been playing Mafia for years and Blacky hasn't. The ability to tell a believable lie correlates more with experience than with scumminess.

A better test would be for them to both investigate the same player, report their results, then have the investigated player make a claim or be lynched. Who to investigate? Claptrap? But that means we can't lynch him since investigations must be conducted at night. Or go ahead and lynch him, and investigate some other player of interest.

[blacky365]

Ok interesting post and obviously I would be up for this 100%
But what would happen in the very likely scenario that one of us is bussed? Or fails in the night action for whatever reason?
We have had 4 nights and I have only successfully investigated one time so I am not sure how it could turn out.
As much as I would have no problem with it, you are giving us both a free pass for the next 2 or 3 nights and I’m not sure that is a good idea for anyone

[ZaBeast]

@Sirius I'll ask again. Who do YOU trust between those? Who do YOU think is scum and who do YOU think is town? You can't forever go "we need to decide which one is scummy" without you expressing any kind of opinion on the matter

[blacky365]

@Sirius I'll ask again. Who do YOU trust between those? Who do YOU think is scum and who do YOU think is town? You can't forever go "we need to decide which one is scummy" without you expressing any kind of opinion on the matter

What about you ZaB?
I take it you believe chap over me?

[ZaBeast]

I think I'd be leaning slightly towards chap more than you, but I'm 60 pages away from making up my mind

[ZaBeast]

I think I'd be leaning slightly towards chap more than you, but I'm 60 pages away from making up my mind

being scum I mean

[Sirius Kase]

@Sirius I'll ask again. Who do YOU trust between those? Who do YOU think is scum and who do YOU think is town? You can't forever go "we need to decide which one is scummy" without you expressing any kind of opinion on the matter

If I knew, I wouldn't have asked. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. I rarely ask questions where I already know the answer. When I ask a question, I want to know something, and if I don't get a good answer, then I propose a test or an experiment. If there are flaws with my proposal, I don't mind modifying the plan. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to win a game.

[blacky365]

I think I'd be leaning slightly towards chap more than you, but I'm 60 pages away from making up my mind

being scum I mean

Interesting... I thought you had voted me earlier, perhaps I was wrong

I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to win a game.

That’s one hell of a line

[Sirius Kase]

Ok interesting post and obviously I would be up for this 100%
But what would happen in the very likely scenario that one of us is bussed? Or fails in the night action for whatever reason?
We have had 4 nights and I have only successfully investigated one time so I am not sure how it could turn out.
As much as I would have no problem with it, you are giving us both a free pass for the next 2 or 3 nights and I’m not sure that is a good idea for anyone

Pika has had only one successful wiretapping. It's certainly not an efficient process. We need more nights. All we can do in the daytime is talk, and much of the talk is lies and misdirection. The only time we can actually investigate is at night. It's hard for a wiretapper or an investigator to establish a reputation with only one investigation. Is amazing how much Pika has gotten out of that one wiretapping. Can it all be true?

@ZaBeast, I guess that answers your question, too, I think Pika is too good to be true. He's gotten so much out of that one wiretapping, some of it must have been manufactured.

oh yeah, the downside, if we let it go to night so that our investigators can get to work, scum will also get to work, and we will risk another night kill. Fortunately, scum, with only 1 night kill, isn't working very efficiently either. Most deaths so far, are due to daytime lynchings.

To use a real world analogy, day time is like wasting time in a meeting, night time is going into the lab and actually doing stuff. But, it's risky. You might break something. But, at least you have something new to talk about at the next meeting.

fp blacky, yeah, it's a line that works in business, too, when the credit seeking egomaniacs take over the meetings. Credit seeking is the flip side of fault finding, it's a waste. Take a look at politics for more examples.

[Sirius Kase]

Yeah, only one night kill, but then there is that unattributed poisoning. There were other poisonings, but only one death. Considering passive poisoning and misdirection, I don't know who to blame. Might even blame the doctor for not healing him.

Multiple doctors, multiple poisoners, multiple investigators. Probably a scum and town version of each. We need more data!

[Pikanchion]

So, I'm still focused on who do we trust between Pika and Blacky? It's not enough knowing what they can do, must know alignment, too. We should test them. I was tempted to suggest having them investigate each other, but surely one would lie and the other wouldn't, and we wouldn't have learned anything. I can see from my forum searches that Pika has been playing Mafia for years and Blacky hasn't. The ability to tell a believable lie correlates more with experience than with scumminess.

A better test would be for them to both investigate the same player, report their results, then have the investigated player make a claim or be lynched. Who to investigate? Claptrap? But that means we can't lynch him since investigations must be conducted at night. Or go ahead and lynch him, and investigate some other player of interest.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the nature of my role. Besides, even if everything you assume about me is true: blacky365 has not claimed any ability capable of categorically identifying alignment. We still have two players claiming to be misdirection roles also, neither of whom are verified in any way, making any publicly stated plan a fool's errand.

[Sirius Kase]

@Sirius I'll ask again. Who do YOU trust between those? Who do YOU think is scum and who do YOU think is town? You can't forever go "we need to decide which one is scummy" without you expressing any kind of opinion on the matter

If I knew, I wouldn't have asked. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. I rarely ask questions where I already know the answer. When I ask a question, I want to know something, and if I don't get a good answer, then I propose a test or an experiment. If there are flaws with my proposal, I don't mind modifying the plan. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to win a game.

I guess it doesn't hurt to give an opinion. Hard evidence is good. But, investigation has a risk, a cost, and it's up to the group to decide whether it is willing to risk a night kill. Words and behavior, that's evidence, too.

I'm leaning towards chap as scum. His plan fell apart under questioning, he was dead set against Pika's plan, and now he's up and disappeared. . If he's not scum, he should explain why an honest person wouldn't want to claim. Even if we aren't persuaded, he should still maintain a presence, to remind us that his position hasn't changed. If he doesn't make even a minimal attempt, that's scummy. He could at least pop in and say "Hi".

[strike wolf]

It may just be because I'm having difficulty focusing and missed it but Sirius what about Pika and Blacky's claims make them mutually exclusive?

[blacky365]

It may just be because I'm having difficulty focusing and missed it but Sirius what about Pika and Blacky's claims make them mutually exclusive?

Don’t you mean me and chap?

Rage has claimed that from his night action, one of me and chap are scum

I know I may have been on some ppls scum list and then rages comment confirmed it for them.
However, I will obviously defend myself but I’m not sure why chap has gone silent.

It is also very conceivable that rage is wrong about me and chap. Either because his result was inaccurate due to the randomness of last nights targets or because he is scum and is inventing bs to get town to lynch more townies and shift focus away from the scum
It stands to reason that if either of us are lynched today and flip town then he will try to convince you that the other must be scum and so an easy and obvious lynch... thus eliminating two more townsfolk

[blacky365]

@sirius
Btw, since you were mia when pikas plan was being discussed... for the record, would you have agreed to it? And if so, who would you have nominated to go first?

[strike wolf]

No. Sirius mentioned not being sure who to trust between Pika and Blacky. Either he got mixed up on who Rage targeted or he saw something I don't recall seeing that would make their claims incompatible for both being town. I was asking him to elaborate.

Also Razor read my question in PM but did not respond.