[CC7] TOFU (33) vs ATN (16) - TOFU Wins! - Final 8/8/17

[iAmCaffeine]

I just realised you're literally playing the maximum number of games.

[rockfist]

You made it closer than it should be after the first round so you won the prize.

And if that yields the results it should I'll win the prize of about a dozen games against josko

[iAmCaffeine]

I don't think it's closer than it should be, just closer than you gave us credit for.

[MTIceman41]

30-20 still looks good...tofu is gluten free; that's hot right now bud

If the final result is 30-20 in this war I'll give you £1mil. Legit.

You are right...rock lifts weights and you don't...
31-20 TOFU... I was undecided on who to give the tiebreaker win too...
Still want to do that wager?

[rockfist]

I'm in the volume phase of my year...I'll lift big weights in about 4-5 months, for. Ow I'm doing mini weights (sets of 12...yuck).

[rockfist]

I don't think it's closer than it should be, just closer than you gave us credit for.

You are playing us closer than Fallen did and as close as LHDD did. I wouldn't expect that you would beat either of them. Granted we had a few stupid errors in this war that we did not have in those wars, but still I'm surprised.

[iAmCaffeine]

30-20 still looks good...tofu is gluten free; that's hot right now bud

If the final result is 30-20 in this war I'll give you £1mil. Legit.

You are right...rock lifts weights and you don't...
31-20 TOFU... I was undecided on who to give the tiebreaker win too...
Still want to do that wager?

I'll wager anything with you right now. This is a 49 game war. Numpty.

I don't think it's closer than it should be, just closer than you gave us credit for.

You are playing us closer than Fallen did and as close as LHDD did. I wouldn't expect that you would beat either of them. Granted we had a few stupid errors in this war that we did not have in those wars, but still I'm surprised.

There have been errors on our side as well. We've been quiet and building lately, both with new and existing members, quite a few changes have been made in Aeternus. The League isn't a good representation of our capability because to be quite honest we just didn't care enough about it. I think we could give both LHDD and FALL at least as close as a run as we're giving you here. I doubt anyone would beat ATL on basic maps and settings much more handily than 16-5.

[Extreme Ways]

There have been errors on our side as well. We've been quiet and building lately, both with new and existing members, quite a few changes have been made in Aeternus. The League isn't a good representation of our capability because to be quite honest we just didn't care enough about it. I think we could give both LHDD and FALL at least as close as a run as we're giving you here. I doubt anyone would beat ATL on basic maps and settings much more handily than 16-5.

Much more? Definitely not, but what is the difference between 17-4 and 16-5 on basic maps and settings? Most likely it's mainly dice, a fight between two clans that are far apart in skill (such as ATN and ATL) isn't good to compare with. A GM in chess would beat an 1600 player just as much as an IM would.

I think you guys were unlucky with this year's bracket. I think if you guys would have ended up on the other side on the bracket you would have a good chance to make semis and perhaps even finals, something like 25%. On this bracket even if you win here, you still face S&M in absolute top form.

[IcePack]

That's extremes polite way of saying he thinks FALL is weak

[Extreme Ways]

That's extremes polite way of saying he thinks FALL is weak

Fall has yet to prove whether it was a one-and-a-half hit wonder. You won CC5, made finals in CC6 but it wasn't very convincing. Fall is a top/subtop clan, on that border. I think ATN deserves the same respect, even when I think the current standing is more TOFU playing worse than expected than ATN showing up big.

Has ATN proven themselves to be a top clan? No, they haven't. They are definitely subtop though and on a good day win vs both FALL and LHDD, hence why i gave them the 25%. Both LHDD and FALL 'should' win, but it wouldnt be the biggest upset ever.

[iAmCaffeine]

I don't think FALL are weak, I just don't think most people rate us as highly as they should. I've seen many top ten current rankings that don't even include ATN which, honestly, is ridiculous. I also don't believe you can attribute the closeness of this war to TOFU slightly under-performing. Last I checked there were two games we could've won but lost due to silly mistakes. It's quite insulting to say this war is close just because you're not playing your best, since neither are we.

I also wouldn't have thought you'd rate us as highly as you do EW, hence my comments about ATL. Our draw was pretty lame. Sure, we got a bye, then we played FaD which was basically a guaranteed win, with the next two matches lining up to be TOFU and S&M. I don't think anyone would get through the top two clans.

I guess we'll see what happens.

[Arama86n]

Last I checked there were two games we could've won but lost due to silly mistakes. It's quite insulting to say this war is close just because you're not playing your best, since neither are we.

Comparing performances between clans is a waste of time, because the reasons for our existence are not the same, nor the standards from which we judge ourselves, respectively.
He is not being insulting caff, just calling it like we see it. (regarding our poor performance)

We have performed at a level we are not pleased with. You, or others, may look upon our performance in this war how you wish.
For us, it is a disappointment.
Arguing the matter is pointless, for there is no truth to be had, simply different perspectives.

[Doc_Brown]

I've seen many top ten current rankings that don't even include ATN which, honestly, is ridiculous.

I'm not sure it's ridiculous to rank you outside the top ten, though at present time, an honest ranking shouldn't have you below 11th at worst I would think. I had a professor in college that had a unique way of curving exam grades. The 10 point scale was still in effect (>90 = A, >80 = B, etc...), but he went a step further. He would plot out a histogram of the grades and look for groupings. Inevitably, there would be a cluster of students scoring the top grades (say 85-100), with a decent gap between their scores and the next grouping. The next group might be from 78-82, and he would give all of the Bs. Then another group would score from 60-73, and they all got Cs.

I think we can do something similar with the F400:
There is a top-3 grouping of S&M, TOFU, and TOP. TOP's exact position might be debatable by some, but if you sit back and think about which clan you'd like to face, I think you'd put all three of these pretty close.
There is a pretty big gap in scores between the top 3 and the next 3: FALL, FOED, and LHDD. Based on recent results, this seems to fit too. Any one of these clans could come out on top of the others, and it wouldn't take much for any of them to beat a top 3 clan, though the odds (at present time) would be less than 50-50.
After that, there is another gap, followed by another grouping of 5 clans: OSA, LOW, PACK, ATN, and RET. To be fair, there is a gap between RET and the other 4, but it's a much smaller gap than between RET and the #12 clan. Again, this cluster of clans would seem to be similar in strength, and any one of them could come out on top at any given time. It wouldn't be a huge surprise to see any one of these clans have a really tight war with a 4-6 clan, but the expected odds would be pretty thin against a top 3 clan.

[iAmCaffeine]

We have performed at a level we are not pleased with. You, or others, may look upon our performance in this war how you wish.
For us, it is a disappointment.
Arguing the matter is pointless, for there is no truth to be had, simply different perspectives.

I haven't commented on your performance once and I don't particularly care if you're performing at your best or worst. You talk about looking at your performance when I am only commenting on ATN's performance, with which we are also disappointed. However, the way some members of your clan are talking insinuates they think it wouldn't be as close if TOFU had made less mistakes.

I think the current standing is more TOFU playing worse than expected than ATN showing up big.

Notice the difference? You can talk about your mistakes all you like, but so can we. Our mistakes cost us two wins. I don't know what your mistakes have cost you, but I didn't bring up our mistakes costing us wins because I don't make excuses. It's insulting for someone to suggest that they only lose, or win by a slight margin, because they have not performed well. For someone - who is by no means in the top tier of TOFU's players and had nothing to do with their highest points in history - to make a comment like the one I just quoted really is sad.

I think we can do something similar with the F400:
There is a top-3 grouping of S&M, TOFU, and TOP. TOP's exact position might be debatable by some, but if you sit back and think about which clan you'd like to face, I think you'd put all three of these pretty close.
There is a pretty big gap in scores between the top 3 and the next 3: FALL, FOED, and LHDD. Based on recent results, this seems to fit too. Any one of these clans could come out on top of the others, and it wouldn't take much for any of them to beat a top 3 clan, though the odds (at present time) would be less than 50-50.
After that, there is another gap, followed by another grouping of 5 clans: OSA, LOW, PACK, ATN, and RET. To be fair, there is a gap between RET and the other 4, but it's a much smaller gap than between RET and the #12 clan. Again, this cluster of clans would seem to be similar in strength, and any one of them could come out on top at any given time. It wouldn't be a huge surprise to see any one of these clans have a really tight war with a 4-6 clan, but the expected odds would be pretty thin against a top 3 clan.

Sounds like a good professor. I agree mostly with what you're saying, although I'd be more inclined to rank TOP below TOFU and S&M, and perhaps slightly above LHDD, FALL and FOED.

ATN are better than LoW, OSA, RET and PACK, despite frequently being ranked in the lower of that group quite often.

[IcePack]

That's extremes polite way of saying he thinks FALL is weak

Fall has yet to prove whether it was a one-and-a-half hit wonder. You won CC5, made finals in CC6 but it wasn't very convincing. Fall is a top/subtop clan, on that border.

Interesting, in order to get to the Finals we had to beat S&M which should say something. Not only that, but while TOFU restricts what they participate in, FALL has pretty much simeoutanously participated in many events and still managed to perform at a high level. We've finished top 1-3 in nearly each event we've signed up in for the last few years. Not only that, the CC6 finals was the first war in the last 3 years we lost. But while we've kept up with you guys, we've also been competing in RL7, MC3, MWC4, Tribes, etc...

We've beaten your clan twice now in wars (CC5 Finals, and POLY Finals) ...three times if you count CL7 (9-7 record in CL7, and 7-9 record in CL8.... so 16-16 over the last two leagues). While you did well in CC6 Finals vs us (in a war we performed poorly in, and admittedly nowhere near our CC5 shape) you performed just as poorly in the POLY finals where we won 26-15 in sets (with a game count win of 71-52). So I'm not sure how one loss for us consistitutes making us a one hit wonder, while one poor war on your part keeps you at the top of the rankings, when we actually have the much heavier game load?

As others have said, everyone has their different perspectives. Thats fine, but I also think its extremely overaggerating to say FALL is a one hit wonder just because we lost one war vs you last finals. You had to add significant amounts of players in CC6 to adjust your performance, while we've maintained most of our membership and continued to consistently perform well amongst many events. So for my perspective your analysis is pretty far off

[Extreme Ways]

That's extremes polite way of saying he thinks FALL is weak

Fall has yet to prove whether it was a one-and-a-half hit wonder. You won CC5, made finals in CC6 but it wasn't very convincing. Fall is a top/subtop clan, on that border.

Interesting, in order to get to the Finals we had to beat S&M which should say something. Not only that, but while TOFU restricts what they participate in, FALL has pretty much simeoutanously participated in many events and still managed to perform at a high level. We've finished top 1-3 in nearly each event we've signed up in for the last few years. Not only that, the CC6 finals was the first war in the last 3 years we lost. But while we've kept up with you guys, we've also been competing in RL7, MC3, MWC4, Tribes, etc...

Usually CL and CC are what people judge clans on. You won't face the same level of competition in MC because some top clans (like TOFU) don't participate in it. RL - I think everybody rates CL over RL and just like TOFU you didn't show up in CL. (36 points for S&M/TOP, 35 LHDD, 26 TOFU/FALL.) I dont know when you started losing points - we lost 0-4 against both S&M and TOP at the end in a period in which we were showing poor play already. Looking for excuses? Yes, are they legitimate excuses to excuse our poor play? Not up to me to decide.

We've beaten your clan twice now in wars (CC5 Finals, and POLY Finals) ...three times if you count CL7 (9-7 record in CL7, and 7-9 record in CL8.... so 16-16 over the last two leagues). While you did well in CC6 Finals vs us (in a war we performed poorly in, and admittedly nowhere near our CC5 shape) you performed just as poorly in the POLY finals where we won 26-15 in sets (with a game count win of 71-52). So I'm not sure how one loss for us consistitutes making us a one hit wonder, while one poor war on your part keeps you at the top of the rankings, when we actually have the much heavier game load?

Game load is also about what you want to play. I've said to you in the past that, while I wasn't around when the decision was made, participating in POLY was a mistake. TOFU doesnt participate in much, and has never done so. TOFU has reached the finals of CC more times than any other clan(?), hence why one poor war, which isn't even with teamgames but rather with polymorphic games, keeps us at the top. If you're looking for reasons to discredit TOFU's current standing, look no further than CL8.

As others have said, everyone has their different perspectives. Thats fine, but I also think its extremely overaggerating to say FALL is a one hit wonder just because we lost one war vs you last finals. You had to add significant amounts of players in CC6 to adjust your performance, while we've maintained most of our membership and continued to consistently perform well amongst many events. So for my perspective your analysis is pretty far off

I can't comment on this as I am one of the new guys, but I dont think roster adjustments is a good argument for skill disparity. The reason why I discredit CC6 is because the individual wars you played weren't that impressive. Of course, beating S&M is ALWAYS an achievement but it should be noted that it couldve swung the other way with just dice. Early rounds are harder to argue because I don't expect you to play your best maps if they take a lot of effort, but I would still expect a better showing than 24-19 vs ATL. The same goes for CC5: You won 31-29 (TOFU), 31-30 (LHDD) and 31-30 (ACE), it is easy to see that while the achievements are very much there, it doesn't look that convincing. It should be noted that as of F400 May 2016, ACE was ranked 9th and LHDD 3th - the draw wasn't the easiest.

tldr: it's not just that one war and I dont really care about events that aren't CC/CL.

[iAmCaffeine]

The fact that a clan chooses to participate in so much and still achieve high rankings in basically everything is impressive. I'm not sure how you're trying to argue otherwise. Also, yes, Fallen had three extremely close wins that could have gone either way, but so has every clan. I think most other clans would've burned out playing TOFU, LHDD and then ACE, but Fallen fought strong until the end. You can't take away from what they achieved, which is something you seem to have developed a habit for across the board.

[Extreme Ways]

We have performed at a level we are not pleased with. You, or others, may look upon our performance in this war how you wish.
For us, it is a disappointment.
Arguing the matter is pointless, for there is no truth to be had, simply different perspectives.

I haven't commented on your performance once and I don't particularly care if you're performing at your best or worst. You talk about looking at your performance when I am only commenting on ATN's performance, with which we are also disappointed. However, the way some members of your clan are talking insinuates they think it wouldn't be as close if TOFU had made less mistakes.

I think the current standing is more TOFU playing worse than expected than ATN showing up big.

Notice the difference? You can talk about your mistakes all you like, but so can we. Our mistakes cost us two wins. I don't know what your mistakes have cost you, but I didn't bring up our mistakes costing us wins because I don't make excuses. It's insulting for someone to suggest that they only lose, or win by a slight margin, because they have not performed well. For someone - who is by no means in the top tier of TOFU's players and had nothing to do with their highest points in history - to make a comment like the one I just quoted really is sad.

I've been saying TOFU has not been living up to expectations since the end of CC6. This is just stating it again, because everybody seems to think that since we're TOFU we'll have it easy. See our results after CC6 finals, we should still be a top3 clan but that is subpar for TOFU standards. I never said we made mistakes, just that the expectations of us were too high.

Also, TOFU doesn't discriminate based on how long you've been in TOFU. If you think I just made it to the top clans, you're wrong. I'm not the most influential or best player in TOFU, we have (had) some very dedicated and skilled players, but what has that to do with me stating that TOFU is not living up to (other's) expectations? TOFU's legacy is impressive and one I didn't contribute much to, I even played for their rivals a short while, but I am still in TOFU and that simple fact is enough to comment on TOFU performances.

The fact that a clan chooses to participate in so much and still achieve high rankings in basically everything is impressive. I'm not sure how you're trying to argue otherwise. Also, yes, Fallen had three extremely close wins that could have gone either way, but so has every clan. I think most other clans would've burned out playing TOFU, LHDD and then ACE, but Fallen fought strong until the end. You can't take away from what they achieved, which is something you seem to have developed a habit for across the board.

It is impressive, but it shouldn't decide whether we have 3 top dogs or 4. Also you got the order around, but point still stands. I also dont see how I downplay anything else other than FALL atm. I downplayed TOFU's current level a while ago, so maybe my own clan too. If anything I seem to be one of the few that actually includes your clan in Doc's second list.

[Extreme Ways]

For someone - who is by no means in the top tier of TOFU's players

Where would you rate me actually? Average? Above average? Deadweight?

[IcePack]

That's extremes polite way of saying he thinks FALL is weak

Fall has yet to prove whether it was a one-and-a-half hit wonder. You won CC5, made finals in CC6 but it wasn't very convincing. Fall is a top/subtop clan, on that border.

Interesting, in order to get to the Finals we had to beat S&M which should say something. Not only that, but while TOFU restricts what they participate in, FALL has pretty much simeoutanously participated in many events and still managed to perform at a high level. We've finished top 1-3 in nearly each event we've signed up in for the last few years. Not only that, the CC6 finals was the first war in the last 3 years we lost. But while we've kept up with you guys, we've also been competing in RL7, MC3, MWC4, Tribes, etc...

Usually CL and CC are what people judge clans on. You won't face the same level of competition in MC because some top clans (like TOFU) don't participate in it. RL - I think everybody rates CL over RL and just like TOFU you didn't show up in CL. (36 points for S&M/TOP, 35 LHDD, 26 TOFU/FALL.) I dont know when you started losing points - we lost 0-4 against both S&M and TOP at the end in a period in which we were showing poor play already. Looking for excuses? Yes, are they legitimate excuses to excuse our poor play? Not up to me to decide.

We've beaten your clan twice now in wars (CC5 Finals, and POLY Finals) ...three times if you count CL7 (9-7 record in CL7, and 7-9 record in CL8.... so 16-16 over the last two leagues). While you did well in CC6 Finals vs us (in a war we performed poorly in, and admittedly nowhere near our CC5 shape) you performed just as poorly in the POLY finals where we won 26-15 in sets (with a game count win of 71-52). So I'm not sure how one loss for us consistitutes making us a one hit wonder, while one poor war on your part keeps you at the top of the rankings, when we actually have the much heavier game load?

Game load is also about what you want to play. I've said to you in the past that, while I wasn't around when the decision was made, participating in POLY was a mistake. TOFU doesnt participate in much, and has never done so. TOFU has reached the finals of CC more times than any other clan(?), hence why one poor war, which isn't even with teamgames but rather with polymorphic games, keeps us at the top. If you're looking for reasons to discredit TOFU's current standing, look no further than CL8.

As others have said, everyone has their different perspectives. Thats fine, but I also think its extremely overaggerating to say FALL is a one hit wonder just because we lost one war vs you last finals. You had to add significant amounts of players in CC6 to adjust your performance, while we've maintained most of our membership and continued to consistently perform well amongst many events. So for my perspective your analysis is pretty far off

I can't comment on this as I am one of the new guys, but I dont think roster adjustments is a good argument for skill disparity. The reason why I discredit CC6 is because the individual wars you played weren't that impressive. Of course, beating S&M is ALWAYS an achievement but it should be noted that it couldve swung the other way with just dice. Early rounds are harder to argue because I don't expect you to play your best maps if they take a lot of effort, but I would still expect a better showing than 24-19 vs ATL. The same goes for CC5: You won 31-29 (TOFU), 31-30 (LHDD) and 31-30 (ACE), it is easy to see that while the achievements are very much there, it doesn't look that convincing. It should be noted that as of F400 May 2016, ACE was ranked 9th and LHDD 3th - the draw wasn't the easiest.

tldr: it's not just that one war and I dont really care about events that aren't CC/CL.

I agree that CC and CL are the two most clans are judged on. So lets look at those?
We won CC5, and if you look at the rankings when we started the wars we had to go through these in order to win. (I dont care what the score was, we won)

[SEP 15] FALL vs TOFU: 31-29 WIN [TOFU #1 Ranked Clan]
[JUN 15] FALL vs LHDD: 31-30 WIN [LHDD #2 Ranked Clan]
[FEB 15] FALL vs ACE: 31-30 WIN [ACE #3 Ranked Clan]

Right around the same time, CL6 was running. Where did we finish? A pretty close third:


Say what you will, we were solid that entire year. At the same time, we also finished 3rd in RL6.

Rank Participant Match W-L-T
(wins +2.0, ties +1.0) Score TB Pts Diff
1 FOED 11 - 2 - 3 25.0 0 46
2 S&M 11 - 2 - 3 25.0 0 40
3 FALL 11 - 4 - 1 23.0 1 38

At the same time doing other events and pick up wars. While you only judge the two events, my point is we were solid and won competitions even though we had a heavy game load. You point out we only won 31-30 or whatever, I'm pointing out if we acted like TOFU and didn't have the heavy load, we might do even better (yet, we are still winning) I'm not trying to discredit TOFU, I'm trying to point out how strong our performance really was, the performance you are trying to discredit.

Whether its a mistake or not (we felt the same about joining POLY) you still joined and you still lost to FALL. So regardless of whether you should have or should not have joined it, you did. You lost. Again, I'm not trying to "take you out of the top group" rather pointing out you shouldn't be so dismissive about FALL's achievements. Poly while is 1vs1, is still team style so it does show strength of team play unlike traditional 1vs1 games.

CC6, again we took on more than "usual" top clans work load and still made it to finals. You can look at individual wars all you want, but our goal is to win, not blow every clan out of the water. We balance our performance to ensure we advance while still moving forward and winning other wars and competitions. We also know those wars are less important, so guys take breaks during that time. So you point to 24-19 vs ATL, all I care about is did we win and advance? The only war that truly mattered was our performance in the final wasn't up to par, but that was one war. In the grand scheme of things, we still did well.

We were #1 clan overall for nearly the entire calendar year as well (2016)

At the same time, CL7 was running. Where did we finish? Runner up:


So you can justify or ignore whatever results as you like, our performance in those two events has been strong. Since 2015, we've been achieving excellent results on a regular basis.
That doesn't take away anything TOFU has done, but again just highlighting what FALL has done. You did achieve CC finals four years in a row, more then any others. But if you want to start putting the magnifying glass to start discrediting performances, there are plenty within those 4 years of CC you can start looking at TOFU's finishes to do the exact same thing you're doing to FALL and picking things apart.

In the end, what do people remember? You've been to 4 finals in a row. So for you to discredit the achievements for petty stuff like the above, is really just disregarding a lot of vital info and could easily be reversed to you.

[iAmCaffeine]

I've been saying TOFU has not been living up to expectations since the end of CC6. This is just stating it again, because everybody seems to think that since we're TOFU we'll have it easy. See our results after CC6 finals, we should still be a top3 clan but that is subpar for TOFU standards. I never said we made mistakes, just that the expectations of us were too high.

Also, TOFU doesn't discriminate based on how long you've been in TOFU. If you think I just made it to the top clans, you're wrong. I'm not the most influential or best player in TOFU, we have (had) some very dedicated and skilled players, but what has that to do with me stating that TOFU is not living up to (other's) expectations? TOFU's legacy is impressive and one I didn't contribute much to, I even played for their rivals a short while, but I am still in TOFU and that simple fact is enough to comment on TOFU performances.

Yeah, rockfist mentioned you've made mistakes and you've stated at least twice that TOFU are under-performing, specifically in this war. Why do you need to make that comment? As I said earlier, we lost two games to you because of poor performance / mistakes, but I didn't bring it up at the time or since, until you made your comments. You quite literally said the reason this war is close is because TOFU haven't put on their best performance. However, ATN haven't either so what becomes your excuse now? Your poor performance is greater than ours?

The point is this war has been close - still is - and perhaps had we not made certain mistakes or missed key turns, you would lose this war. Northwest Passage was only lost because Patrick missed a key turn when he had a 12 stack hidden in the fog to break your bonus. That's just one example. That is our fault as a clan and not something I'm afraid to admit.

You repeatedly make comments about how you're under-performing or whatever else, both to me and Jason. All it does is undermine what others have accomplished and make you sound arrogant. I highly doubt you want to come off in that way so I'd suggest you think about what you say. It's almost on par who consistently blames their losses on dice. You can see how quite clearly how biased or incorrect your arguments are just by looking at all the counter-arguments to what you've said.

I feel like you don't understand what I'm saying. I never said anything about how TOFU rates their players and I don't care about how you got into top clans. Four years ago I was playing games with CoF, catnip, comic and others. They told me I was good enough to join the clan, so what? I'd probably say you're above average going off memory of the current lineup. However, I do believe that without rockfist and loutil TOFU would struggle to be a top three clan.

[rockfist]

TOFU does not rank our players within our clan. Those outside of TOFU don't know what the contibutions of individual players are. EW played in the CC finals for us and did very well.

I say that, on behalf of our clan.

TOFU was a top clan before I joined, before Lou joined. I know what Lou contributes to the clan and it's significant. I'd like to think I earn my keep too, but TOFU is so much more than two people.

My contribution to when TOFU won CL??? A 4-6 record. Yup. Lou wasn't here.

[iAmCaffeine]

Good for you. I never said otherwise. The only issue I have is trying to take away from others accomplishments in such a blind fashion.

[Extreme Ways]

TOFU does not rank our players within our clan. Those outside of TOFU don't know what the contibutions of individual players are. EW played in the CC finals for us and did very well.

I say that, on behalf of our clan.

TOFU was a top clan before I joined, before Lou joined. I know what Lou contributes to the clan and it's significant. I'd like to think I earn my keep too, but TOFU is so much more than two people.

My contribution to when TOFU won CL??? A 4-6 record. Yup. Lou wasn't here.

I wanted to post something similar, that I'm just a TOFU member and wouldnt even know how I would compare in skill, but anyway you got me to post other stuff.

At the moment, you leaving would leave big shoes to fill. We would recover, but it would take a bit, maybe a while. Same with lou, same with other what some would call 'core' players. We have lost 'core' players before and even recently, such as Doc, Kexor. TOFU leadership is strong and has always managed to attract new members to build on the future, to compensate for our losses. Right now those people are for example jghost, shocked and gambler.

Might respond to my other discussions tomorrow, but have to sleep.

[rockfist]

Good for you. I never said otherwise. The only issue I have is trying to take away from others accomplishments in such a blind fashion.

I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. Winning CC5 was a great accomplishment for Fallen. Winning CL7 was a great accomplishment for LHDD. Nothing anyone says or does now will remove them.

I think winning Poly is a good accomplishment and Fallen can be proud of that. It gives them some measure of revenge against us for CC6.

Based on past history, I'd say both Fallen and LHDD have accomplished more than ATN. You can disagree with that.

I would never go into a war thinking it would be easy to beat Fallen, or LHDD, or ATN. Do I expect to win, yes. I think we are very good and I always expect to win, until we get consistently beaten that will be my position. If I enter a competition expecting to lose, I've likely lost already.

The nature of TOFU is to have an ever changing roster with fluid teams . It's always been that way. It doesn't make us better or worse, just different than Fallen or some others.

I personally rate Fallen and LHDD above TOP. I get all the PAP crap that went down but Maybe just maybe they were looking at playing S&M for the right to play TOFU for the right to play Fallen (or LHDD) and thought nah.