Balance Not Included Come Back Mafia End Game: Mod Down!!!

[nagerous]

I targeted mets night three but the mod got my night action wrong and thought I said fircoal.

Night one I didn't send a night action

[nagerous]

I'll also note that chu is not clear. My earlier theory hinged on the fact that a redirector existed, and they swapped dakky's target with nag. So someone could have moved my hider target. Unless dakky lied about his results and no redirector exists, which seems unlikely.

Wasn't it surmised already that the gifts changed the night actions on night two?

Mets how many gifts do you have available and what have you got left ?

I take it you have no idea what they do.

[nagerous]

Night two the deduction has to be that either mafia targeted mets or fircoal OR legion sent the kill and was roleblocked

Night three dakky got a redirect heat seeking missile and used it on me to dj fireside which means that I would have used my night action onDJ instead. This would have meant whoever he targeted in the night would have been me because that's how my night action operates. So dj wouldn't have sent the NK as I would have redirected it to myself and if he sent the kill I would then have died.

FOS skoffin for suggesting the two best targets are DJ and fircoal when both are likely cleared from being scum by the reported night actions. One by yourself inadvertently, did you scum slip by clearing your lynch target fircoal?

[nagerous]

Also skoffin you have excluded Tim's night actions

[Skoffin]

The redirect/swap ability was N3, not N2 which I was referring to. Dakky used his power on DDS, but he was diverted to you. Who diverted Dakky? Dakky did not divert himself. I take this to mean that someone (a redirector/driver) swapped DDS and you around.

Why do you assume those options for N2? They can't have targeted Chu as he would have lost his vest. They could have targeted mets, myself or legion was blocked.

Funny that you say that DJ can't have made the NK because you took his power from him... which is exactly what I said to defend Sam from lynching yesterday Forgive me when I say that it feels like people just aren't listening to me.
But ultimately we can't be certain your ability redirects the mafia kill and not just the particular member's role ability.

I said the best candidates are mets and DJ, not mets and chu. DJ might not have made the kill, but he and chu are the best contender for being the redirector. DJ, Chu and DDS are really the only people that haven't had their actual role abilities in some way verified.
Mets is also a contender for scum simply due to being one of the few people able to make a kill action happen.
Chu has not been cleared by me as I'm certain there is a redirector in the game and they could alter who I hid behind.

[Metsfanmax]

Mets how many gifts do you have available and what have you got left ?

I take it you have no idea what they do.

I started with four gifts, and I have gifted one each of the first three nights. I have no idea what they do. Pretty much the only latitude I had with my role was to decide whether or not to even give the gifts, and if so, to pick essentially randomly among them.

[nagerous]

The redirect/swap ability was N3, not N2 which I was referring to. Dakky used his power on DDS, but he was diverted to you. Who diverted Dakky? Dakky did not divert himself. I take this to mean that someone (a redirector/driver) swapped DDS and you around.

Why do you assume those options for N2? They can't have targeted Chu as he would have lost his vest. They could have targeted mets, myself or legion was blocked.

Funny that you say that DJ can't have made the NK because you took his power from him... which is exactly what I said to defend Sam from lynching yesterday Forgive me when I say that it feels like people just aren't listening to me.
But ultimately we can't be certain your ability redirects the mafia kill and not just the particular member's role ability.

I said the best candidates are mets and DJ, not mets and chu. DJ might not have made the kill, but he and chu are the best contender for being the redirector. DJ, Chu and DDS are really the only people that haven't had their actual role abilities in some way verified.
Mets is also a contender for scum simply due to being one of the few people able to make a kill action happen.
Chu has not been cleared by me as I'm certain there is a redirector in the game and they could alter who I hid behind.

The big difference between night two and night three is there was a death night three, there was no death night two.
My taking his night action therefore didn't clear him.

Ok so night two, dakky did you get explained what the alarm clock did? It sounds like the heat seeking missile was explained and how it operated and the hot potato was explained pretty much as a ticking time bomb. The alarm clock was used on DDS right? It turned his watching to a role block (maybe) and you got the response I visited Samlen? I figured the alarm clock must have done that, I don't think dakky could have been redirected that night as otherwise how would that explain the DDS turning into a role blocker rather than a watcher? I redirected Sam into targeting me - which did nothing as it turns out he had no night action.

[nagerous]

But ultimately we can't be certain your ability redirects the mafia kill and not just the particular member's role ability.

People who I target at night get so distracted by me that they target me if they have a night action rather than their original target. I don't think it could be any clearer really.

[nagerous]

I said the best candidates are mets and DJ, not mets and chu.

Then why continue to vote him?

Nag I would assume would have stolen DJ's kill if he were a killer

Funny that you say that DJ can't have made the NK because you took his power from him... which is exactly what I said to defend Sam from lynching yesterday Forgive me when I say that it feels like people just aren't listening to me.

I am listening, you said it yourself so why the 180 on DJ now that the pinning it on chu plan is out the window?

I just find it suss that you were super protective of sam when you hid behind him to the point of saying below:

It's very important that Samlen reveals his role before any lynch, I'm not going to specify why that is until he claims. I ask that no one else vote for him at the moment to get his claim out otherwise I will have to assume you are scum for it.

All because you hid behind him? What were you thinking exactly if you didn't understand the hider role and the fact that hiders die when they hide behind scum?

Then when the new day phase begins you're instantly on Chu again, saying you hid behind him, which is the opposite stance you took defending Sam when you hid behind him (suggesting you had evidence that cleared him but never actually producing anything until the deadline and also backing out because of the miller claim)... then also show that you don't understand how the role actually operates. I would expect also that if this was a true claim the moderator would tell you this detail... it is an important element of the role.

If you had told us you hid behind Sam earlier instead of literally hours before the deadline, we might not have actually lynched Sam as this evidence could have been taken into consideration. However, you chose until the last minute to claim and also confessed to lying about being NK immune - which would have been possibly seen as counter-claiming Fircoal's role

I can see there is a case against others but there are just a few inconsistencies / question marks about this play which I can't ignore at the moment.

vote skoffin

[Skoffin]

The redirect/swap ability was N3, not N2 which I was referring to. Dakky used his power on DDS, but he was diverted to you. Who diverted Dakky? Dakky did not divert himself. I take this to mean that someone (a redirector/driver) swapped DDS and you around.

Why do you assume those options for N2? They can't have targeted Chu as he would have lost his vest. They could have targeted mets, myself or legion was blocked.

Funny that you say that DJ can't have made the NK because you took his power from him... which is exactly what I said to defend Sam from lynching yesterday Forgive me when I say that it feels like people just aren't listening to me.
But ultimately we can't be certain your ability redirects the mafia kill and not just the particular member's role ability.

I said the best candidates are mets and DJ, not mets and chu. DJ might not have made the kill, but he and chu are the best contender for being the redirector. DJ, Chu and DDS are really the only people that haven't had their actual role abilities in some way verified.
Mets is also a contender for scum simply due to being one of the few people able to make a kill action happen.
Chu has not been cleared by me as I'm certain there is a redirector in the game and they could alter who I hid behind.

The big difference between night two and night three is there was a death night three, there was no death night two.
My taking his night action therefore didn't clear him.

Ok so night two, dakky did you get explained what the alarm clock did? It sounds like the heat seeking missile was explained and how it operated and the hot potato was explained pretty much as a ticking time bomb. The alarm clock was used on DDS right? It turned his watching to a role block (maybe) and you got the response I visited Samlen? I figured the alarm clock must have done that, I don't think dakky could have been redirected that night as otherwise how would that explain the DDS turning into a role blocker rather than a watcher? I redirected Sam into targeting me - which did nothing as it turns out he had no night action.

That's if you assume that mafia actively chose not to make a kill N2. They could have been blocked or targeted mets or myself who could not be killed. You pulled Sam's actions to you which meant he did not try to kill anyone, which you are stating now in defence of DJ, because you would have died as you had no protections. so yeah I find it ridiculous this argument wasn't good enough when I used it to defend Sam yesterday but suddenly it's good enough now for DJ.

I don't know how the alarm clock thing worked, I assumed it would have a limit on how many people it can affect. So yes, double checking with dakky as to what he knows of the item would be useful at this point.

But ultimately we can't be certain your ability redirects the mafia kill and not just the particular member's role ability.

People who I target at night get so distracted by me that they target me if they have a night action rather than their original target. I don't think it could be any clearer really.

Previously you just stated you pull someones action to you, which can go two ways - you pull their individual power, or the team kill if they sent it for the team. The 'they get so distracted' gives further context that can imply that all actions do indeed go your way. Soz but I don't know the intricacies of your role. Ultimately, however, it still does not clear DJ - it just means he did not send in the kill.

I said the best candidates are mets and DJ, not mets and chu.

Then why continue to vote him?

Soz Unvote

Nag I would assume would have stolen DJ's kill if he were a killer

Funny that you say that DJ can't have made the NK because you took his power from him... which is exactly what I said to defend Sam from lynching yesterday Forgive me when I say that it feels like people just aren't listening to me.

I am listening, you said it yourself so why the 180 on DJ now that the pinning it on chu plan is out the window?

I just find it suss that you were super protective of sam when you hid behind him to the point of saying below:

It's very important that Samlen reveals his role before any lynch, I'm not going to specify why that is until he claims. I ask that no one else vote for him at the moment to get his claim out otherwise I will have to assume you are scum for it.

All because you hid behind him? What were you thinking exactly if you didn't understand the hider role and the fact that hiders die when they hide behind scum?

Then when the new day phase begins you're instantly on Chu again, saying you hid behind him, which is the opposite stance you took defending Sam when you hid behind him (suggesting you had evidence that cleared him but never actually producing anything until the deadline and also backing out because of the miller claim)... then also show that you don't understand how the role actually operates. I would expect also that if this was a true claim the moderator would tell you this detail... it is an important element of the role.

If you had told us you hid behind Sam earlier instead of literally hours before the deadline, we might not have actually lynched Sam as this evidence could have been taken into consideration. However, you chose until the last minute to claim and also confessed to lying about being NK immune - which would have been possibly seen as counter-claiming Fircoal's role

I can see there is a case against others but there are just a few inconsistencies / question marks about this play which I can't ignore at the moment.

vote skoffin

I changed my mind on something I stated; you seemingly ignored it and then used my own argument later. I think there is a key difference there.

I was super protective of Sam because I was convinced he was not scum, and even backed up why I believed that. No one was interested in listening or considering any other target besides Sam.

I thought Sam was going to claim to be a Vig, and had it done so I would have instantly voted DJ. My reason being at the time is that if we had a vig in the game then scum could have a doctor on their team, whereas if there is no vig then scum can't have a doctor on their team (as per the mod OP). If Sam claimed Vig I would have 100% believed DJ was the scum doctor just claiming to be a town doctor.

You argument here is basically that I am retarded and did not properly google the role before roleclaiming it. Pls. I may not be the best at playing as town but I am never that sloppy when playing as scum. The mod did not tell me that I die from hiding behind scum; had I known that I would have revealed hiding behind Sam to save him, and I would not have hidden behind Chu thinking he was scum. I cannot be held responsible for not knowing the full facts of my role when they were not given to me.

But at least someone else here is actually making a case, I was getting a bit tired of making all the action. But it seems apparent that if I were scum my best course of action would be to say nothing; as I am fairly convinced if I stopped posting then the activity in here would just die of. Which leaves us with the interesting predicament that if I were to get lynched then come the next day phase no one would stop scum from simply submarining to victory. We are going days between posts from certain people, and they need to be more active or ask to be replaced (Eg Legion, even dakky and dj)

[Skoffin]

My point is kinda being proven right now

[Fircoal]

I think we need dakky to explain the alarm clock or else we're going to have a hard time understanding what's going on on Night 2. I feel like in those actions we might be most primed to find someone lying.

Nag I don't see why you're pushing on Skofifn being scum. She's pretty much one of the few that is contributing here and what she says makes sense. What's more likely that a town member would claim their role works as they were described and that Strike miswrote it or that scum would miss the first page posted under "hider mafia" and go with something that's incorrect? Usually when I'm town I stick to what my pm says for what my action is.

[Fircoal]

My point is kinda being proven right now

To be fair I was right in the middle of posting.

[Fircoal]

I also want to hear from DDS, DJ, and Mets, and well everyone more. However I don't' think I can really form the basis I want to until dakky tells us about the alarm clock. SO HURRY UP DAKKY.

[dakky21]

Alarm clock was a roleblock ability with an ability to exchange it with the target role. So I targeted DDS and he got roleblocked while I seen Nag visit Samlen. So that means DDS was roleblocked while I got his role and his target. At least I guess it was like that.

[Skoffin]

"I guess it was like that" and "this is the information I was given" are two different things. What were you directly told about the alarm clock? Were you told outright that it can roleblock, or are you just assuming that it did?

@Chu shhh you don't count as a person

[Skoffin]

for the moment I'm going to run under the assumption there is NO mafia redirector:

Can someone other than me go back and check on Tim's actions to confirm I have read it correctly: Tim stated that he used his ability on mets N2 and if mets were targeted for a kill that names would be added to the scene. Nothing was added to the scene, but it's uncertain if names would have been added regardless or whether met's potentially being 'saved' by a doctor would nullify that. My assumption would be that something would have been mentioned in the scene otherwise Tim's role is near useless, which for now leads me to assume that mets was not targeted for a night kill.
So with that info:

The list of people:

1. Metsfanmax - Dr Egg/Gifter
3. Dakky - Name/Test Subject
5. Dr fireside - Dr Hibbert/Doctor
7. DirtyDishsoap - Owl/Watcher
9. Chu - Diamond/BP
10. Legion - Name/Flasher
11. Skoffin - A Frightened Cat/Hider
12. Nag - Overzealous sports fan/Instigator

To determine the scum I'm going to start by looking at who could have performed the night kills.

For N2:
Dakky saw Nag at sam and no one protected sam from death which suggests Nag did not perform a kill action.
Fircoal appears town due to my role info
Dakky isn't cleared, but I am disinclined to believe he is scum

We know that a kill did not go through N2 but we do not know why. Possible scenarios for why the kill did no happen:
Scum tried to kill a person hiding (skoffin)
Scum was roleblocked (Legion)
Scum had their kill turned to a roleblock (DDS)
Outside those two people, other people that could have performed the NK would be Mets and DJ but that would assume they targeted me for a kill. Even without the info regarding Tim's role, for both Mets and Dj to be telling the truth about their roles and for it to be possible that DJ protected Mets and that is why no kill happened that would still suggest that scum kill had to come from one of legion/dds.

N3:
Nag was redirected to DJ, he did not perform a kill action
DDS was delayed, so he did not perform the kill action
Nag pulls from DJ but doesn't die, so dj did not perform the kill action

so from this night people that could have performed the night kill would be dakky, mets and legion

[Djfireside]

Very well put together and the more this breaks apart, the more it looks like there would have to be a scum pair left. From looking at everything I think its either Dakky and mets or Chu and Skoffin.

Dakky(Test Subject) and Mets(Dr Egg Gifter)
Proven
-have to exist together based on the claim.
-The gifts are given from gifter(Mets) to the test subject(dakky) based on their statement.
-the gifts exist and Dakky has knowledge of what they did and claims the actions.
Scum Theories
+Dakky could be scum inventor and just using their own Inventions and claiming the paired role to cover for Mets which would allow them to be anything.

Chu and Skoffin
Proven:

[DirtyDishSoap]

I also want to hear from DDS, DJ, and Mets, and well everyone more. However I don't' think I can really form the basis I want to until dakky tells us about the alarm clock. SO HURRY UP DAKKY.

At this time, I have nothing more to add other than filler posts. I'm still re-reading everything and seeing if there was something missed.

The only thing I would like to know is why Dakky didn't say anything about it when I was role blocked. That certainly would have cleared up a lot of confusion about the alarm clock. Or if that was Mets, either way, I'm not sure why it was not mentioned then and it's only being mentioned now.

[Metsfanmax]

Dakky(Test Subject) and Mets(Dr Egg Gifter)
Proven
-have to exist together based on the claim.
-The gifts are given from gifter(Mets) to the test subject(dakky) based on their statement.
-the gifts exist and Dakky has knowledge of what they did and claims the actions.
Scum Theories
+Dakky could be scum inventor and just using their own Inventions and claiming the paired role to cover for Mets which would allow them to be anything.

I don't actually know that dakky is also town, to be clear. I was told nothing about the test subject. I just think it would a pretty weird and kind of bastard role setup to do it that way, and likely to be covered under the balancing strike said he might do.

[Djfireside]

Strange that submitted without me hitting it. Continuing on

Chu(BulletProof) and Skoffin(Hider)
Proven:
-Nothing, all claimed evidence comes from the other.

Scum theories
- Neither role can be confirmed and were played closely off the partner in this scenario.
- Chus role is overpowered IMO and was very late restricted claim
- Skoffin had a few trips on what their role would have done. Invulnerability claims for instance

Legion
Proven
- There was an action done midday day 2 after a no kill night. Based on current claims there is nothing to state that the kill was not delayed which would state that there is no godfather.
- There has been no further actions showing up in scenes.
Scum Theory:
One Shot Day Killer, JOAT.

I think Legion is who they say they are and we can test that if they target DDS. If they are true to who they say they are then the N1 kill was delayed which explains the no kill but N2 offers the biggest questions


I think it has to be between Dakky/Mets and Skoffin/Chu. I had more on Chu.Skoff but each side I can see happening and its late I need to go to sleep just wanted to get it completed. Will filli nmore later

[Skoffin]

DJ - I don't think it fair to say dakky and mets would be scum just based on their roles. They could have been handed those roles with any alignment. They could both be scum, both town or a combination of town/scum.
I'm interested to hear why the chu/Skoff grouping, as you did not back that one up with reasoning.

Note: you posted as I was typing, hrrrn! I'll look over and respond when I can

[dakky21]

"I guess it was like that" and "this is the information I was given" are two different things. What were you directly told about the alarm clock? Were you told outright that it can roleblock, or are you just assuming that it did?

The only thing I would like to know is why Dakky didn't say anything about it when I was role blocked. That certainly would have cleared up a lot of confusion about the alarm clock. Or if that was Mets, either way, I'm not sure why it was not mentioned then and it's only being mentioned now.

Because I am not sure if I can receive the same gift multiple times and revealing what it does to the gifter seemed as a bad choice. The hot potato waffle was a bomb passed to Samlen, no big deal... the heat seeking missile also sounded as not to bad as I could just redirect actions... but if mets is really a gifter and if he is mafia aligned then revealing the roleblock + getting the target's results (DDS got blocked + I saw Nag visit Samlen) sounded to me as overpowered to be early revealed. I am aware it would clear the confusion but understand my thoughts as well.

[Fircoal]

Some interesting notes. We know there is a redirector if Dakky is telling the truth. However given Dakky's action implies that Sam and DDS were swapped, it's unlikely that it came from Nag, and most certainly didn't come from Nag's claimed action.

Also didn't DDS say that his action was turned into a roleblock, not that he got roleblocked? That doesn't seem to match up with what dakky provided. It doesn't match up at all. But if Dakky is telling the truth about it, then DDS is a watcher, which makes things curious. Either he was switched or he was lying about what happened. In any case someone is lying or at least is holding out important information.

Outside those two people, other people that could have performed the NK would be Mets and DJ but that would assume they targeted me for a kill. Even without the info regarding Tim's role, for both Mets and Dj to be telling the truth about their roles and for it to be possible that DJ protected Mets and that is why no kill happened that would still suggest that scum kill had to come from one of legion/dds.

I also could have been targeted. As far as I can tell.

"I guess it was like that" and "this is the information I was given" are two different things. What were you directly told about the alarm clock? Were you told outright that it can roleblock, or are you just assuming that it did?

The only thing I would like to know is why Dakky didn't say anything about it when I was role blocked. That certainly would have cleared up a lot of confusion about the alarm clock. Or if that was Mets, either way, I'm not sure why it was not mentioned then and it's only being mentioned now.

Because I am not sure if I can receive the same gift multiple times and revealing what it does to the gifter seemed as a bad choice.

This makes it seem that you assume the gifter was on the other side. I think it's hard to know that for sure, and if you were on the town side wouldn't it make more sense to assume that he was good. Your role is designated into getting these lab toys, so why would you care that much if the gifter knows. You're the one acting out the power, not him.


I need to think about this more when I'm not tired so my mind isn't in so much of a daze. I'm 100% sure there is some lies here somewhere but I don't know where it's coming from. Neither DJ nor DDS can be the one who did this kill though. That is if Dakky and Nag are telling the truth.

As it stands I'm sure Legion is town, and after this I'm inclined to believe Skoffin is town for now. That leaves Nag, Dakky, and Mets for this last kill.

I don't think Dakky is on a team with Mets. It doesn't make sense with what's happened.

Furthermore I see lots of possibility for hiding roles in Met's and dakky's roles. More likely MEts than Dakky's, and there has to be a hiding role out there somewhere.

blah let me try to get back to this. My head is spinning..

[DirtyDishSoap]

[quote="Fircoal"]Some interesting notes. We know there is a redirector if Dakky is telling the truth. However given Dakky's action implies that Sam and DDS were swapped, it's unlikely that it came from Nag, and most certainly didn't come from Nag's claimed action.

Also didn't DDS say that his action was turned into a roleblock, not that he got roleblocked? That doesn't seem to match up with what dakky provided. It doesn't match up at all. But if Dakky is telling the truth about it, then DDS is a watcher, which makes things curious. Either he was switched or he was lying about what happened. In any case someone is lying or at least is holding out important information.
[quote]

When my action was turned into a role block, I essentially said that whoever (or whatever), had that power was simply OP because I'm basically being role blocked and role blocking another town. I understand where Dakky is coming from when he doesn't want to mention it, but for whatever reason, he didn't seem to understand why he saw Nag visit Sam.

The biggest issue I'm seeing with Dakky's post, however, is saying that he took my role, along with the roleblock/roleblock. I believe we've established the other day that he didn't receive my role? I could be mistaken about it because at the time I was confused at how weird of a day it was.

If I'm understand this correctly, in Dakky's perspective, is that not only did he turn me into a roleblocker (and roleblocking my original action, if that makes sense to anyone), but he is also receiving my role.

The last thing that I'm pretty sure is a slip on his end at this point, is that we confirmed Dakky to be a tracker, because I raised a point that if he were to receive my role, he wouldn't know who his target was. He would just know who visited who.