BREXIT

[tzor]

You live in a federal republic of 50 states and are suggesting that being part of a group of 28 members in europe is absurd.

First of all, for the past century, the United States has slowly tried to become more like Europe. If you ignore all that BS for a moment, the US is vastly different from the EU in a number of ways.

The US Constitution was established to give limited and enumerated powers to the Federal Government. The Constitution originally placed restrictions on that Federal Government and not on the states. The Constitution established a difficult amendment process that, if necessary could be triggered by the States themselves.

There are a significant number of Americans who want us to remember and return to the original model; removing all current federal programs not within the enumerated powers, returning the election of senators to the state legislatures, and a number of other proposals designed to limit the federal leviathan.

There is no such equivalency in Europe because the EU was designed from the start as a bloated progressive bureaucracy.

[Donelladan]

If I were a citizen of UK I'd definitely vote to stay in EU.

But since I am a pro-european person and not citizen of UK - I hope they leave. We'll be better off without them if we ever want to go forward to a better EU.
As far as I've heard, even if they voted to stay, they wouldn't have a more pro-european politics. Mainly the pro-european seems to say they can stay and do whatever they want so they should stay. What a great reason to stay.

[saxitoxin]

Morning of the Long Knives: Pro-EU Member of Parliament Assassinated

The Leave campaign assassinated one of the MPs supporting Remain this morning.

Cafe owner Clarke Rothwell, who witnessed the attack, said he heard a "loud popping noise that sounded like a balloon burst - a loud balloon".

"When I looked round there's a man stood there in his 50s with a white baseball cap on and a jacket with a gun, an old fashioned looking gun in his hand," he said.

"He shot this lady once and then he shot her again, he fell to the floor, leant over shot her once more in the face area.

"Somebody tried to grab him, wrestling with him and then he wielded a knife, like a hunting knife, just started lunging at her with a knife half a dozen times. People were screaming and running from the area".

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36550304

One witness claimed to have heard the attacker shouting “Britain first!” according to Sky News.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... treet.html

No identity yet on the assassin. (Anyone seen Linda Searcy lately?)

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I pity the fool. If you don't see the difference between European and American cultures then I must pity you. Europe has a deep history of religious and cultural diversity. America has a corporate culture. You must be supportive of Sharia Law then. I mean in the name of diversity why not let that into the conversation? What is happening in Europe with the refugees changing the culture America did with the Indians. The political process in Europe is not like the American political system. That's obvious. If you can't see that then your blind. It seems like you would be for global government then. Why not let a person in Ethiopia dictate how your country runs?

I support global democracy. I agree that sharia law should be part of the conversation rather than condemned from afar.

My biggest issue with the EU is that I cant see it becoming global as it appears to have become isolationist and defensive.

Most of Americas problem stem from the fact that a large proportion of americans refuse to admit the existance of different cultures in America.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Saxi, there are no words for this.

[saxitoxin]

So, politicians be assassinated, referendums on secession being held, riots engulfing Paris ... all we need now is the German Army to cross someone's border and the Europe we all know and love is back!

[tzor]

THE ABSURDLY CONFUSING LANDS OF THE BRITISH CROWN, EXPLAINED IN 1 CHART

[waauw]

[jonesthecurl]

The assassin was obviously one of the richer smarter types that has convinced mrsw.

[thegreekdog]

You live in a federal republic of 50 states and are suggesting that being part of a group of 28 members in europe is absurd.

First of all, for the past century, the United States has slowly tried to become more like Europe. If you ignore all that BS for a moment, the US is vastly different from the EU in a number of ways.

The US Constitution was established to give limited and enumerated powers to the Federal Government. The Constitution originally placed restrictions on that Federal Government and not on the states. The Constitution established a difficult amendment process that, if necessary could be triggered by the States themselves.

There are a significant number of Americans who want us to remember and return to the original model; removing all current federal programs not within the enumerated powers, returning the election of senators to the state legislatures, and a number of other proposals designed to limit the federal leviathan.

There is no such equivalency in Europe because the EU was designed from the start as a bloated progressive bureaucracy.

Ginkapo - While tzor makes some valid points, his post is largely incorrect.

The states within the United States are, by and large, beholden to the federal government. The states have not been a collection of individual sovereign states since the mid 19th century. While the Constitution was meant to give limited power to the federal government (i.e. tzor's second paragraph), that largely fell apart as a result of the US Civil War and the early 20th century depression. Additionally, while there are some Americans who want to return to the original model (i.e. me), likely 85%+ do not.

[warmonger1981]

@Wing

Do you believe one government will be able to regulate every culture? Or do you believe a culture should regulate itself? Does Sharia Law trump government law? The EU will become global through trade. Like the TPP or APP. I'm pretty sure Americans are welcoming of cultures. I'm not sure about this but America would seem to have more types of people from more countries than any other. The problem is that Americans have adopted a corporate ideology of what America should look like. People come here to lose their culture within a generation.

[GoranZ]

If I were a citizen of UK I'd definitely vote to stay in EU.

But since I am a pro-european person and not citizen of UK - I hope they leave. We'll be better off without them if we ever want to go forward to a better EU.
As far as I've heard, even if they voted to stay, they wouldn't have a more pro-european politics. Mainly the pro-european seems to say they can stay and do whatever they want so they should stay. What a great reason to stay.

This is official French politics(not only vs UK but with others also), and I personally hate it. My response to official French politics is No you will never be better without UK. UK leaving EU will not produce anything good, for both UK and EU, politicians should stop dreaming. After all if France has weak neighbor across the channel, they will not be able to make business with it, if they dont make business with their neighbors with whom they will make business?
The ideals of EU are not about divisions in Europe, but quite opposite. If UK voters decide to leave they should leave as friends and not expelled as enemies so if another generation of UK voters decide to return to EU they can be accepted as friends(like nothing happened before). Thats the only way EU will become stronger regardless of UK's vote. Anything else could mark the beginning of the end for EU.

[Donelladan]

What ? It's definitely no official french politics. Maybe it's what majority of french people think, but it's not the official french politics position. All french politicians want UK to stay in the EU. The only one that want UK to leave EU, are the one that also want France to leave EU, because they think it will help them showing it's possible to leave EU and therefore their political project isn't non-sense.

UK leaving EU will not produce anything good, for both UK and EU, politicians should stop dreaming. After all if France has weak neighbor across the channel, they will not be able to make business with it, if they dont make business with their neighbors with whom they will make business?

Yes ofc if the only thing that concern you is money, UK staying in EU is good for everyone. But what concerns me is more the well-being of the EU citizen, for example.

Speaking of EU institution, I believe that what we need for the EU is more federalism, smthg closer to US government for example, I wish we had a EU army, that border were controlled directly by EU and not by each national power.
This kind of thing are impossible with country that wants above all to keep staying fully independent, which is mainly the case of UK.
Understand me well, I would like UK to be part of the EU I dream about, but I know that there is very little chance this EU ever exist if UK stays, at least with their current state of mind.

If the decision of UK staying in EU would make them having a more pro-EU point of view, that would be great, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

[waauw]

If UK voters decide to leave they should leave as friends and not expelled as enemies so if another generation of UK voters decide to return to EU they can be accepted as friends(like nothing happened before). Thats the only way EU will become stronger regardless of UK's vote. Anything else could mark the beginning of the end for EU.

The problem with that is, what can be considered a friendly break? Does this mean the EU would have to give the UK extremely beneficial concessions? Or is the EU treating the UK like any other non-EU country already considered friendly?

[mrswdk]

The assassin was obviously one of the richer smarter types that has convinced mrsw.

He was probably paid to do it by Vote Remain as a PR stunt to sabotage Leave's popularity.

[jonesthecurl]

The assassin was obviously one of the richer smarter types that has convinced mrsw.

He was probably paid to do it by Vote Remain as a PR stunt to sabotage Leave's popularity.

Good one. they probably hired Boris johnson to put off anyone with a brain, too.

[mrswdk]

The assassin was obviously one of the richer smarter types that has convinced mrsw.

He was probably paid to do it by Vote Remain as a PR stunt to sabotage Leave's popularity.

Good one. they probably hired Boris johnson to put off anyone with a brain, too.

Political actors not part of the ruling class in crowd are often vilified by the in crowd as soon as they stand up to the ruling class consensus. It happened to Jeremy Corbyn, and Remain have tried it with Boris Johnson.

Luckily a majority the British people can see through the lies of Big Business aka Vote Remain.

[jonesthecurl]

Johnson was a joke long before he hitched his wagon to Leave.

[mrswdk]

The smear campaign has clearly worked admirably on jonesthecurl.

[tzor]

The states within the United States are, by and large, beholden to the federal government. The states have not been a collection of individual sovereign states since the mid 19th century. While the Constitution was meant to give limited power to the federal government (i.e. tzor's second paragraph), that largely fell apart as a result of the US Civil War and the early 20th century depression. Additionally, while there are some Americans who want to return to the original model (i.e. me), likely 85%+ do not.

The seed was planted at the end of the civil war, but the leviathan didn't appear until the progressives started appearing decades later (starting with good old Teddy Roosevelt). Never the less, the only reason (apart from military force) why New York would not want to leave the United States is that the US is still the sole support of military forces for the states. The EU hasn't a military function, NATO is a separate organizational structure that, ironically enough, includes the United States, each "state" in the EU still maintains a military.

While you believe in the BORG, there are still those who do not want to be assimilated. I actually want to take the founder's vision to the NEXT LEVEL. Catholic teaching on politics has always been based on subsidiarity or the notion that government should always be at the lowest level possible which is practically feasible, so as to be close to the people it governs as possible. The needs of the farmland are not the needs of the suburbs and are not the needs of the urban centers. Of course, the men who were redesigning the Articles of Confederation weren't redesigning all of the various state constitutions, or county/parish constitutions, so that wasn't possible in that document, but that should still be the goal, not a one law that somehow has to apply to all types of possibilities, enforced by one global enforcement agency.

[tzor]

The smear campaign has clearly worked admirably on jonesthecurl.

Wait a second. Someone has been campaigning for cream cheese for Jonesy's bagels?

[saxitoxin]

I actually want to take the founder's vision to the NEXT LEVEL.

Catholic teaching on politics has always been based ...

The founders hated Catholics and felt Catholicism was an alien, fifth column religion incompatible with Liberty, according to National Catholic Reporter (who even give it a fairly tame treatment).

The American Revolution was conducted by Protestants and was based on Protestant ethics and values. There were no Catholics on the Mayflower, nor with John Winthrop, nor at Lexington or Concord, nor (practicing Catholics) who signed the Declaration of Independence. Neither of America's two most illustrious lineage societies, the Society of the Cincinnati and the Order of the Founders and Patriots have a single Catholic member today who isn't a French citizen. Your sect is tolerated under the Bill of Rights, like all alien sects, tzor, but you're not part of The Core Team.

I like Catholics (generally), but you're being a huge hypocrite. If you truly want to take it to the next level you'd quit the religion the founders repeatedly denounced as an existential threat. It seems you want to pick and choose which of the founders ideas you embrace, cafeteria style. That's fine unless you believe they were presenting a unified worldview; that the car won't keep driving if you decide you like the seats but don't want the wheels.

[Symmetry]

Remain- I've been pretty much on the fence for most of the debate, albeit leaning remain. The "it's all about the economy" argument from the remain side never really sat right for me, but the anti-immigrant nastiness from the leave side tipped me.

Too many friends from Europe, and indeed from around the world, who work and contribute to the UK have said to me that they don't understand where this hatred has come from. Britain has always been a tolerant nation on the whole, at least in my lifetime.

I guess that's an odd point of pride for me to admit here, as it opens me up for attack, but yeah, I guess that's a view I have of the UK.

[saxitoxin]

Benjamin Franklin after avoiding a shipwreck on unmarked rocks in 1757:

Were I a Roman Catholic, perhaps I should on this occasion vow to build a chapel to some saint, but as I am not, if I were to vow at all, it should be to build a light-house.

[Symmetry]

Benjamin Franklin after avoiding a shipwreck on unmarked rocks in 1757:

Were I a Roman Catholic, perhaps I should on this occasion vow to build a chapel to some saint, but as I am not, if I were to vow at all, it should be to build a light-house.

Let me guess- he did precisely nothing, but made sure he was quoted.