CC Premium membership thread

[iAmCaffeine]

Well, when you put it like that..

[owenshooter]

*long shakespearian soliloquy*

but what does that have to do with the recurring membership issues? this thread was started in 2014...

by WPBRJ on Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:46 pm

in 2015, we have an active member, literally in shock over what we have been discussing for over a year...-Jésus noir

Dukasaur's post performed by Mel Gibson:

[Dukasaur]

*

but what does that have to do with the recurring membership issues?

Nothing...

[owenshooter]

i truly do not want to let this post get lost in the page change... Duk put a lot of effort into this one man play.. enjoy!!-Jésus noir

My main issue is that buying premium for someone else costs more than buying it for yourself. That is completely counter productive to increasing membership.

I agree with you it's a bad policy. Just wanted to make that clear before I answered Ron's comment.

However this has been lost over the years, I have no idea who BigWHAM is (never even seen him post?) but he's obviously doing this to make money no other reason, I suppose when you buy a website you don't have that love for it like you would if you built it from scratch so these decisions are 100% money related,

BW did post a bit when he first took over, but the people who didn't like his changes were pretty savage in their attacks, and he withdrew from the forums rather than stress about it. I can pretty much understand that decision.

But I would challenge you about who loves this website more.

Lackattack started it, and in the beginning it was his lovechild, but after the first couple years there is clear evidence that he got bored with it. After those first two years he withdrew from the community, rarely played a game here, stopped accepting PMs, and had the "Community Manager" handle all interaction with the community and the forums. He may have loved it at the beginning, but the love affair turned sour pretty early.

CC peaked in 2009, and by then there was almost no direct interaction with lackattack. Updates were fewer and fewer after that, and the "Community Manager" spent most of his time making excuses for why there were no updates, and vague promises of updates to come in the future. As the years went by, the promises got more vague over time, as he got progressively more embarrassed about having to make excuses for the absent owner. At that time (and note this, because it becomes significant) CC was still making (by my estimate) something between $250,000 and $300,000 a year. CC was in decline after 2009, but still making decent money. Lackattack, even if he was sick of the place, could have hired an outside programmer to make some upgrades. (Actually, he did, but he cheaped out and hired unknown offshore programmers who didn't have a clue. He wouldn't spend the money to hire anyone good.)

By the end of 2012, CC was in freefall, and lackattack ditched it for an undisclosed price. All these numbers are estimates based on the number of the people on the scoreboard and the percentage that are premium, but I'm guessing that in the 5 years lackattack had made $500,000 clear on the site even before the sale.

The next owner was El_Jefe. El_Jefe spent a lot of money advertising CC. Nobody knows how much money, but the El_Jefe reign was the only time that I saw advertisements for CC on other sites. Advertising isn't cheap, so I suspect it was a lot of money. The advertising didn't help. Thousands of new people came and checked out the site, but few of them stayed. The decline of CC slowed down but didn't stop. Whether the ads were targetted at the wrong group or whether CC is an acquired taste that needs to be sold by word-of-mouth, who can say? El_Jefe definitely lost his shirt, because his love affair with CC also soured quickly, and in under a year he was selling it again. During his reign, membership dropped from 14K to 12K, and the estimated income from probably an annualized $170K to an annualized $130K or thereabouts.

The third owner was/is BW. He too was a long-time player. Actually he was a Top 10 player long ago. Taking over CC was definitely a culmination of a long love affair. BW doesn't have El_Jefe's millions to play with, but at least he was a techie. The membership was still dropping rapidly, and the site was long overdue for a revamp, so with no money to pay for outside help, he started working long days writing updates himself. The first two changes he introduced -- polymorphic games and 12-player games -- were very popular and got tons of praise. After that, however, there were some unpopular updates, and the community which loved him in November of 2013 was hating him by January of 2014. Amazing how fast people will turn on you, and how viciously. If you'd read some of the stuff that was posted here in early 2014 you'd think BW was the left hand of Satan.

Since then, of course, membership has dropped even more, and revenue, even with the price increase, is probably below $100K annually. Part of the problem is that the people who wanted change didn't get enough of it to make them happy, and meanwhile the people who don't like change have gotten a lot more of it than they want. There's no solution to that. If the new owners had followed lackattack's Do Nothing strategy, the site would still have declined, albeit probably a little more slowly. We might be at 9500 members now instead of 7500. BW doesn't believe in waiting to die slowly. He believes in continuing to try new things, always hoping that the next update is the one that will ignite people's imagination and give the site new life.

So, Ronnie, I ask you now. Who loves this site most? The original founder, who cleared at least half a mill, and then walked away when it started going downhill instead of trying to save it? Or the second owner, who unfortunately didn't have any tech knowledge, but poured big bucks into trying to reverse the decline through advertising? Or the third owner, who took over the site when it was already half way into the grave, and has been working 14 hour days ever since trying to modernize it and save it?

[Ronaldinho]

My main issue is that buying premium for someone else costs more than buying it for yourself. That is completely counter productive to increasing membership.

I agree with you it's a bad policy. Just wanted to make that clear before I answered Ron's comment.

However this has been lost over the years, I have no idea who BigWHAM is (never even seen him post?) but he's obviously doing this to make money no other reason, I suppose when you buy a website you don't have that love for it like you would if you built it from scratch so these decisions are 100% money related,

BW did post a bit when he first took over, but the people who didn't like his changes were pretty savage in their attacks, and he withdrew from the forums rather than stress about it. I can pretty much understand that decision.

But I would challenge you about who loves this website more.

Lackattack started it, and in the beginning it was his lovechild, but after the first couple years there is clear evidence that he got bored with it. After those first two years he withdrew from the community, rarely played a game here, stopped accepting PMs, and had the "Community Manager" handle all interaction with the community and the forums. He may have loved it at the beginning, but the love affair turned sour pretty early.

CC peaked in 2009, and by then there was almost no direct interaction with lackattack. Updates were fewer and fewer after that, and the "Community Manager" spent most of his time making excuses for why there were no updates, and vague promises of updates to come in the future. As the years went by, the promises got more vague over time, as he got progressively more embarrassed about having to make excuses for the absent owner. At that time (and note this, because it becomes significant) CC was still making (by my estimate) something between $250,000 and $300,000 a year. CC was in decline after 2009, but still making decent money. Lackattack, even if he was sick of the place, could have hired an outside programmer to make some upgrades. (Actually, he did, but he cheaped out and hired unknown offshore programmers who didn't have a clue. He wouldn't spend the money to hire anyone good.)

By the end of 2012, CC was in freefall, and lackattack ditched it for an undisclosed price. All these numbers are estimates based on the number of the people on the scoreboard and the percentage that are premium, but I'm guessing that in the 5 years lackattack had made $500,000 clear on the site even before the sale.

The next owner was El_Jefe. El_Jefe spent a lot of money advertising CC. Nobody knows how much money, but the El_Jefe reign was the only time that I saw advertisements for CC on other sites. Advertising isn't cheap, so I suspect it was a lot of money. The advertising didn't help. Thousands of new people came and checked out the site, but few of them stayed. The decline of CC slowed down but didn't stop. Whether the ads were targetted at the wrong group or whether CC is an acquired taste that needs to be sold by word-of-mouth, who can say? El_Jefe definitely lost his shirt, because his love affair with CC also soured quickly, and in under a year he was selling it again. During his reign, membership dropped from 14K to 12K, and the estimated income from probably an annualized $170K to an annualized $130K or thereabouts.

The third owner was/is BW. He too was a long-time player. Actually he was a Top 10 player long ago. Taking over CC was definitely a culmination of a long love affair. BW doesn't have El_Jefe's millions to play with, but at least he was a techie. The membership was still dropping rapidly, and the site was long overdue for a revamp, so with no money to pay for outside help, he started working long days writing updates himself. The first two changes he introduced -- polymorphic games and 12-player games -- were very popular and got tons of praise. After that, however, there were some unpopular updates, and the community which loved him in November of 2013 was hating him by January of 2014. Amazing how fast people will turn on you, and how viciously. If you'd read some of the stuff that was posted here in early 2014 you'd think BW was the left hand of Satan.

Since then, of course, membership has dropped even more, and revenue, even with the price increase, is probably below $100K annually. Part of the problem is that the people who wanted change didn't get enough of it to make them happy, and meanwhile the people who don't like change have gotten a lot more of it than they want. There's no solution to that. If the new owners had followed lackattack's Do Nothing strategy, the site would still have declined, albeit probably a little more slowly. We might be at 9500 members now instead of 7500. BW doesn't believe in waiting to die slowly. He believes in continuing to try new things, always hoping that the next update is the one that will ignite people's imagination and give the site new life.

So, Ronnie, I ask you now. Who loves this site most? The original founder, who cleared at least half a mill, and then walked away when it started going downhill instead of trying to save it? Or the second owner, who unfortunately didn't have any tech knowledge, but poured big bucks into trying to reverse the decline through advertising? Or the third owner, who took over the site when it was already half way into the grave, and has been working 14 hour days ever since trying to modernize it and save it?

Firstly before I start I hope I didn't come across as overly unfair on BW. It's not that. It's just hard seeing something sink when you can see that there is a lot of good ideas out there but noone seems to at least come out to acknowledge those ideas, even if the idea is bonkers.


That being said my basis for the 'love child' feeling I spoke about was what I experienced as one of the first members on this site, the energy of the community etc. I left for a few years in late 2008 I think? Or maybe 2009 I'm not entirely sure. It's whenever the Flamewars went, after that at some point. So my memory of Lack will always be of that time but evidently it's not all it was cracked up to be in the later stages. I am glad you took the time to give me a little insight, thank you.

Okay let me try a different angle because I honestly think to bring this site back, even a little you NEED to community on board. The only way you can do this is to envolve them in decisions. 14 hour days? Working on what? I don't mean this as an insult but as a real question to see what the big guy is up to? I'm sure the forums would love a a little insight in to what he has planned for CC & to get perhaps a little excitement going? I'm sure he/you are tired of listening to people tell you what they think is wrong with the site but we don't have a real discussion board where we can all voice our concerns to shape the site in to something we love, after all we are the ones who log on daily to ensure it's survival.

What I think should be considered.

1) Monthly posts by the community manager or even BW talking about whats in the pipeline, or even what we think of an idea thats been put forward. It honesty (I may be off the mark by some distance) feels like it's just BW coming up with ideas & running with it. Why isn't there huge community input before he takes on a project on the site? I'm sure im not alone in saying I would give up some of my freetime to help with whatever I could if I had some say in the direction the site is going.


I don't want to ramble on for ages but I could probably come up with another 5 solid ideas that do not cost hardly anything, if anything at all that would help this website. I just feel like it's a dictatorship & whatever BW wants to do, he'll just do it...

[IcePack]

Why isn't there huge community input before he takes on a project on the site?

First this is not an official answer, just from my perspective from someone who sees a lot both in the community, in the development process, etc

1) because it's hard to get the community to even agree on some things
2) because sometimes he is choosing things that aren't targetted towards current members but towards future members / future plans (stuff like tic tac toe etc is widely mocked by current members, but is something to build off for the future. The "community" would largely attack, mock, or decline stuff like this while not largely looking at the bigger picture he has planned
3) look at the first few announcement threads from his updates. Some people loved it, some people hated it, but largely there was no agreement and only caused rifts and fighting between the two sides showing that many in the community can't act like a community
4) since no one can agree, generally it goes to "we'll just make it an option", which makes things x100 more difficult to update, improve, fix bugs etc in the future. It's already difficult to diagnose so many issues with so many options, paneks, no panels, which add ons, what settings, etc adding options makes fixes and improvements that much more difficult moving forward.

I had a few other points but gotta run for work. Can things be improved? Sure. Can they be communicated better to the community? Absolutely. Is extensive debate and arguing going to help guide / direct the site and provide useful input on every subject if they went that route? Doubtful.

[owenshooter]

What I think should be considered.

1) Monthly posts by the community manager or even BW talking about whats in the pipeline, or even what we think of an idea thats been put forward.

um... how about just giving us an ANNOUNCEMENT when something new is launched?!! i always stumble into new things and never see announcements about any of it. some of the changes, i found months after they were up and running... why not use that forced spam newsletter to drop a monthly note from the big kahuna, on the community? aside from all the issues, i see LACK OF COMMUNICATION as one of the largest from ownership to members... you know... things like NOT ADDRESSING THE ISSUE IN THIS THREAD!!!-Jésus noir

[Ronaldinho]

Why isn't there huge community input before he takes on a project on the site?

First this is not an official answer, just from my perspective from someone who sees a lot both in the community, in the development process, etc

1) because it's hard to get the community to even agree on some things
2) because sometimes he is choosing things that aren't targetted towards current members but towards future members / future plans (stuff like tic tac toe etc is widely mocked by current members, but is something to build off for the future. The "community" would largely attack, mock, or decline stuff like this while not largely looking at the bigger picture he has planned
3) look at the first few announcement threads from his updates. Some people loved it, some people hated it, but largely there was no agreement and only caused rifts and fighting between the two sides showing that many in the community can't act like a community
4) since no one can agree, generally it goes to "we'll just make it an option", which makes things x100 more difficult to update, improve, fix bugs etc in the future. It's already difficult to diagnose so many issues with so many options, paneks, no panels, which add ons, what settings, etc adding options makes fixes and improvements that much more difficult moving forward.

I had a few other points but gotta run for work. Can things be improved? Sure. Can they be communicated better to the community? Absolutely. Is extensive debate and arguing going to help guide / direct the site and provide useful input on every subject if they went that route? Doubtful.

Glad to have your perspective on the subject.

Every community has the same issues, if anyone here plays Fifa they will know the forum is a shitfest of people constantly abusing things put forward. However they tend to get some form of direction from what is being put forward, rather than just doing what they like & sticking with it.

I get not everyone likes change, but I think something needs to be done. I now know why BW doesn't post but I think he needs to roll up his sleeves & take the initial anger & really try to connect to the community again. I know it's a ballache with people constantly being sarcastic (owen, you little f*ck, lol) BUT you will gain a lot more respect from people for trying.

I hope BW does read this & reaches out to try & get a REAL conversation going on some potentially amazing changes to the site that could be achieved with everyone chipping in.

[owenshooter]

I hope BW does read this & reaches out to try & get a REAL conversation going on some potentially amazing changes to the site that could be achieved with everyone chipping in.

don't care, go start another thread. this is about the bullshit recurring membership premium scam... stay on topic... go have your love fest in another thread...-Jésus noir

[ConfederateSS]

Why isn't there huge community input before he takes on a project on the site?

First this is not an official answer, just from my perspective from someone who sees a lot both in the community, in the development process, etc

1) because it's hard to get the community to even agree on some things
2) because sometimes he is choosing things that aren't targetted towards current members but towards future members / future plans (stuff like tic tac toe etc is widely mocked by current members, but is something to build off for the future. The "community" would largely attack, mock, or decline stuff like this while not largely looking at the bigger picture he has planned

-------No, I think everyone can agree. On this topic. Well,those not with High Command blinders on. Even an 8 year old selling Lemon aid on the corner. Knows give the PEOPLE what they want and have the price nicely displayed.
-------We THE COMMUNITY used to voted on changes like MAPS. Whether that stopped to cater to Clans and Cliques. I don't know. But I can see why a few would be afraid of letting the masses vote. They wouldn't get their way.
-------As for a different thread of Ideas. We have one. It is called. Is C.C. Declining. The reason Tic-Tac-Toe is mocked. Even an 8 year old knows the answer to that as well. It is a game that always ends in a tie.
-------As for this thread. It is not the fact of the prices. It is the fact of hiding prices. A movie costs around $100 for an average family. A sporting event $500. I think most of us(who don't need their parents permission). Wouldn't mind a little increase. What Conquer Club charged it's premium members. As long as it was the same for all. Also,if it was a quality product worth our money. Outside of a few minor details. There is no different then being a freemium. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

[ConfederateSS]

BigWham. I appreciate all that you, the volunteers and admins have done are doing and will do.
thank you.

Hi all: Just to let you know I will be making changes to the shop soon that should make the subscription aspect 100% clear.

I would appreciate your help, and the help of the volunteers/admins in correcing a minor problme giftign omeone with a memberhsip that could become a big probem in terms of PR. Lets make this a win-win rather than a lose-lose.

However when our clan tried to help out one of our members dyrtydog by gifing him with a 3 month premium through Order #3377 . it didn/t work.

Re: Offer still stands.

actually

I can use one

Might be a few glitches in the system with the new CC purchase credit system, cc'ed Cheme to smooth out any glitches and maybe make it a full year

Success! Your order was fulfilled.
Following is your receipt for Order #3377 on the Conquer Club Store.
Username: Fewnix
Order Id: 3377
Amount: 1,200C
Time: 14 Jan 2015 20:30:17 ET

p.s. We need you.

Re: should be 3 months to dd

Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:02 pm
From: dyrtydog
To: Fewnix
didnt work

help in this matter gets you extra special karma points from me.

Few, the often misunderstood Minister of Information for the ++Legion++

--------Upon further research...It seems this isn't the first time ***dyrtydog*** has had a membership problem. You think he would of remembered. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

[ConfederateSS]

--------As Caff has said. In dyrtydog's "why no money?". The costumer isn't even told there total when they are going to purchase stuff. YES, it sounds like things are being made 100% clear in the C.C. store. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

[dyrtydog]

BigWham. I appreciate all that you, the volunteers and admins have done are doing and will do.
thank you.

Hi all: Just to let you know I will be making changes to the shop soon that should make the subscription aspect 100% clear.

I would appreciate your help, and the help of the volunteers/admins in correcing a minor problme giftign omeone with a memberhsip that could become a big probem in terms of PR. Lets make this a win-win rather than a lose-lose.

However when our clan tried to help out one of our members dyrtydog by gifing him with a 3 month premium through Order #3377 . it didn/t work.

Re: Offer still stands.

actually

I can use one

Might be a few glitches in the system with the new CC purchase credit system, cc'ed Cheme to smooth out any glitches and maybe make it a full year

Success! Your order was fulfilled.
Following is your receipt for Order #3377 on the Conquer Club Store.
Username: Fewnix
Order Id: 3377
Amount: 1,200C
Time: 14 Jan 2015 20:30:17 ET

p.s. We need you.

Re: should be 3 months to dd

Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:02 pm
From: dyrtydog
To: Fewnix
didnt work

help in this matter gets you extra special karma points from me.

Few, the often misunderstood Minister of Information for the ++Legion++

--------Upon further research...It seems this isn't the first time ***dyrtydog*** has had a membership problem. You think he would of remembered. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

that was me on the receiving part...had no idea this was even happening, I was BROKE !! shit happens in life. Similarly, I see someone who is now struggling with money and I offer to go help, and I find its a rip off to buy someone ELSE a premium without having to purchase excess credits that will not ever be used again. I was totally unaware that this post ever existed.

[ConfederateSS]

-----Oh,I'm sure you were unaware. But your gift was having a problem going through. If it was me. If I was giving or getting something. It doesn't work. I might look into it. You're telling me. You never talked to Few about it. But that's that. You can see now the smoke and mirrors being done in the 100% clear store. If only others can learn as well. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

[Ronaldinho]

I hope BW does read this & reaches out to try & get a REAL conversation going on some potentially amazing changes to the site that could be achieved with everyone chipping in.

don't care, go start another thread. this is about the bullshit recurring membership premium scam... stay on topic... go have your love fest in another thread...-Jésus noir

I'm like 93% certain you come into the forums to be counter productive. Stop being a bellend, it's hardly like i'm changing the subject to something completely different it roughly the same issue we are all having.

[owenshooter]

I hope BW does read this & reaches out to try & get a REAL conversation going on some potentially amazing changes to the site that could be achieved with everyone chipping in.

don't care, go start another thread. this is about the bullshit recurring membership premium scam... stay on topic... go have your love fest in another thread...-Jésus noir

I'm like 93% certain you come into the forums to be counter productive. Stop being a bellend, it's hardly like i'm changing the subject to something completely different it roughly the same issue we are all having.

no, you are changing the discussion to site changes and volunteering to help. this discussion is about the premium membership recurring change. two wholly different subjects. please stay on topic.-Jésus noir

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[IcePack]

They did change / update the subscription where it's actually listed as a subscription instead of having to click the ? to alert you.

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[WILLIAMS5232]

They did change / update the subscription where it's actually listed as a subscription instead of having to click the ? to alert you.

I think recurring would be more clear. Or better yet just say recurring subscription. When I subscribe to a magazine im not autobilled. I dont guess ill ever be ok with it, it just seems like the decision is based on people signing up and forgetting about it, more so than making it convienient. I had to click two tabs to find out that it is automatically billed. Subscription seems like a loose term.

[IcePack]

They did change / update the subscription where it's actually listed as a subscription instead of having to click the ? to alert you.

I think recurring would be more clear. Or better yet just say recurring subscription. When I subscribe to a magazine im not autobilled. I dont guess ill ever be ok with it, it just seems like the decision is based on people signing up and forgetting about it, more so than making it convienient. I had to click two tabs to find out that it is automatically billed. Subscription seems like a loose term.

I'm not saying it couldn't be clearer, I'm just saying after the first "uproar" it was changed and made more upfront. Apparently v 2.0 doesn't like it.

But if you click the terms it's pretty clear

[dyrtydog]

regardless, its a rip off. There is no reason why i shouldn't be able to buy someone else a membership (helps the site) for the same price that I pay (and I am NOT a subscriber or have my account automatically deducted). It should be $29.99 across the board. PERIOD

[owenshooter]

regardless, its a rip off. There is no reason why i shouldn't be able to buy someone else a membership (helps the site) for the same price that I pay (and I am NOT a subscriber or have my account automatically deducted). It should be $29.99 across the board. PERIOD

and, again... welcome to two years ago... glad you are paying attention now...-Jésus noir

drtydog waking up!!

[ConfederateSS]

------It isn't 100% clear. People still are having issues using it. It was supposed to have been made 100% clear in Jan. 2015.
------It hasn't been 2 years though. More like a little over a year.
------I can't find a subscription problem before August 2014. The subscriptions must have been introduced,with no announcement. Sometime around that time.
------On page 19 of GD. Subscription-Premium...by Doctor Spin...Feb.19,2014.
------"Conquer Club does not offer subscriptions. We do offer premium membership for $25/year."....by blakebowling. The Good Old Days. When we had pictures of presents. Upgrades on the Game Member User panel. Good Times. But at least we have useless DICE STATS. So the cry babies can bitch all day long. Good dice,bad dice, if you don't like them. Don't Play. That simple. If you play long enough. The dice come back around. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

[BrutalBob]

Great post thank Dukasaur, thank you.

A very informative history lesson. Just one question, when you quote 7500 current members are they paid up members or including free players?