Girl Burned Alive: The Quest for Morality in America

[DaGip]

I guess it all depends how each individual perceives morality. From my point of view, I see murdering people as wrong, and I have a hard time trying to understand how anyone could burn a 19 year old girl alive.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 14925.html

I understand that evil exists in the hearts of humans, but to think of such a demonic act against another human being and then act on it...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

When things like this happen in the world, I start to wonder if morality can even be restored; and if it can't...then what? And if it can, how do we go about doing it?

[Metsfanmax]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

[nietzsche]

Yes, like we do with sex. Let's make it taboo so people hide to do it and do it in weird ways because all of the bottled up tension.

The answer is genuine care for others. But we are so busy not caring because caring makes us poor and vulnerable.

[mrswdk]

As Adam Smith said, individual actions do not need to be motivated by any kind of desire to do good for their results to contribute to the collective good.

Trying to push one particular idea of 'morality' on people is not the answer. Leave them be and let them find their own equilibrium.

[notyou2]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

[Metsfanmax]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

Lobsters are crustaceans, which while being arthropods are certainly not insects and belong to a completely different subphylum.

But the important part is not what you call them -- it is whether they can feel pain. And there is lots of evidence that lobsters may feel pain in a way similar to how humans do. It is certainly not settled science, it's an active area of research. But if there's even a 10% chance that lobsters feel pain, we are all monsters if we're eating tens of millions of them each year. It would mean that there's a Holocaust happening all around us, all the time.

[_sabotage_]

[Dukasaur]

Evil is inherent in the fabric of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics, that entropy always increases, guarantees that one cannot live without killing, one cannot build without destroying, and although the good people among us may stand for a day or a month or a century, in the end evil will always triumph.

Against the backdrop of ceaseless killing, we irrationally select certain things to protect. It's bad to burn teenage girls, because they're cute, but it's okay to burn the nests of hornets, because they're ugly. We must protect the panda from extinction, because it's cute, but nobody except some oddball scientist cares about saving the Brown Marmorated Stink Beetle from extinction, because it's ugly, and stinky too.

In the end death will claim all, and the lobster in the pot can celebrate that his suffering will probably last less than a minute, while many of us will writhe in agony for months.

[macbone]

Replace "cute girl" with "homeless person" and the end result is the same, the work of monsters.

My son asks me if monsters are real, and I tell them, yes, they are. They're us.

[DaGip]

Replace "cute girl" with "homeless person" and the end result is the same, the work of monsters.

I agree with this. That's how the major news media works. They report only what they want to, while other stories (just as tragic) are cut out of the spotlight. The major news media picks and chooses which stories to report or even in some instances "create" or accentuate.

A good example of what you are talking about happened about 13 or 15 years ago in Phoenix, AZ. A homeless woman was beaten, gang raped, and then thrown into a dumpster and set ablaze. A small story was written on it in the local newspaper on some obscure page, but the rest of the country never caught wind that this type of thing happened. But yet in Connecticut, a doctor's family (wife, 17 year old daughter, and 11 year old daughter) get raped and then burned alive and the whole country wants justice for a prestigious family and their cute little white girls.

I'm not trying to say what happened to these girls and Jessica Chambers wasn't horrible, because it is; but the major news media chooses who we get all worked up about. Our news media and society tend to put differing values on differing human lives, those values are based on a sense of worth. Who is more worthy of life? Some haggard meth addict getting raped in a shadowy part of Phoenix or some young 19 year old cute blonde that innocently went to the store to get gas and some munchies? If given the choice to save only one of these girls, which one would it be? The choice is even harder for Batman.

My son asks me if monsters are real, and I tell them, yes, they are. They're us.

You have now created a paranoid misanthrope.

[BigBallinStalin]

Replace "cute girl" with "homeless person" and the end result is the same, the work of monsters.

My son asks me if monsters are real, and I tell them, yes, they are. They're us.

Oh? Well, you and the monsters go hang out over there. We, civilized folks, got better things to do.

[mrswdk]

inb4 Bible quotes

[notyou2]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

Lobsters are crustaceans, which while being arthropods are certainly not insects and belong to a completely different subphylum.

But the important part is not what you call them -- it is whether they can feel pain. And there is lots of evidence that lobsters may feel pain in a way similar to how humans do. It is certainly not settled science, it's an active area of research. But if there's even a 10% chance that lobsters feel pain, we are all monsters if we're eating tens of millions of them each year. It would mean that there's a Holocaust happening all around us, all the time.

I know they are crustaceans, and yes they probably feel pain, like most living creatures. So what is your solution? Should we not eat? Perhaps we should only eat plants? Does a carrot feel pain while being boiled alive?

[Metsfanmax]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

Lobsters are crustaceans, which while being arthropods are certainly not insects and belong to a completely different subphylum.

But the important part is not what you call them -- it is whether they can feel pain. And there is lots of evidence that lobsters may feel pain in a way similar to how humans do. It is certainly not settled science, it's an active area of research. But if there's even a 10% chance that lobsters feel pain, we are all monsters if we're eating tens of millions of them each year. It would mean that there's a Holocaust happening all around us, all the time.

I know they are crustaceans, and yes they probably feel pain, like most living creatures. So what is your solution? Should we not eat? Perhaps we should only eat plants? Does a carrot feel pain while being boiled alive?

Yes, we should only eat plants. Carrots don't feel pain while being boiled.

[nietzsche]

While Mets is nuts, his point is valid in the sense that we should strive for treating animals with "respect". You gonna eat it? Ok, just don't treat it with unnecessary cruelty.

I didn't know lobsters where boiled alive and if that's true I will never eat lobster in a restaurant in my life.

Don't remember where I read it but I understand that boiling or burning is very painful death, in comparison to freezing to death which eventually numbs your pain receptors or aomething and you don't experience the agony.

[patches70]

in comparison to freezing to death which eventually numbs your pain receptors or aomething and you don't experience the agony.

Well, if you don't think extremely violent shivering, extreme confusion, erratic heartbeat, loss of muscle control, extremely labored breathing and other various disturbing symptoms of severe hypothermia to not be agony then yeah, freezing to death involves no agony. Freezing to death ain't a good way to go. Then again, there are few ways that one might think as "a good way to go". The agony of burning to death or being boiled alive is pretty short lived when compared to freezing to death. You'll stop hurting when boiled alive a lot quicker than you'll stop hurting when freezing to death.


Either way, a quick bullet to the head is probably preferable than burning or freezing to death.
IMO. The worst thing about freezing to death is that you'll have your senses long enough to know that you are in some real trouble and that you are going to die, soon, and you won't be able to do a thing to stop it. You won't even have the ability to contemplate your loved ones by the time you've figured out your going to die because you'll be so cold your brain won't be able to think of anything at all except how freaking cold you are. Very strange things happen to a person's mind when they are freezing to death. That's a horrifying thing in and of itself, IMO, to slowly lose your mind while your body flails in vain to save itself by sacrificing your extremities.

Yeah, freezing to death is it's own brand of agony.

[nietzsche]

in comparison to freezing to death which eventually numbs your pain receptors or aomething and you don't experience the agony.

Well, if you don't think extremely violent shivering, extreme confusion, erratic heartbeat, loss of muscle control, extremely labored breathing and other various disturbing symptoms of severe hypothermia to not be agony then yeah, freezing to death involves no agony. Freezing to death ain't a good way to go. Then again, there are few ways that one might think as "a good way to go". The agony of burning to death or being boiled alive is pretty short lived when compared to freezing to death. You'll stop hurting when boiled alive a lot quicker than you'll stop hurting when freezing to death.


Either way, a quick bullet to the head is probably preferable than burning or freezing to death.
IMO. The worst thing about freezing to death is that you'll have your senses long enough to know that you are in some real trouble and that you are going to die, soon, and you won't be able to do a thing to stop it. You won't even have the ability to contemplate your loved ones by the time you've figured out your going to die because you'll be so cold your brain won't be able to think of anything at all except how freaking cold you are. Very strange things happen to a person's mind when they are freezing to death. That's a horrifying thing in and of itself, IMO, to slowly lose your mind while your body flails in vain to save itself by sacrificing your extremities.

Yeah, freezing to death is it's own brand of agony.

Are you sure about this? I'm willing to take your word because I'm very lazy but I really remember reading somewhere it was the other way around.

[_sabotage_]

Read Into Thin Air.

Put the lobster to sleep. I thought everyone knew this.

[Dukasaur]

Read Into Thin Air.

Put the lobster to sleep. I thought everyone knew this.

It's a myth. A relaxed lobster is still capable of feeling pain.

[_sabotage_]

I guess you are right, girl being burned alive equals boiling sleeping lobster.

Lobsters are cannibalistic. They are also the prey of other animals. Perhaps we should genetically modify lobsters and their predators to improve our social morality.

Burning a girl alive doesn't reflect American morality any more than a old guy's willingness to face ongoing prosecution in order to feed the poor reflects Florida's morality.

Comparing burning a girl to death to eating lobster is like saying using paper is equivalent to genocide. Cue Mets.

[PLAYER57832]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

Lobsters are crustaceans, which while being arthropods are certainly not insects and belong to a completely different subphylum.

But the important part is not what you call them -- it is whether they can feel pain. And there is lots of evidence that lobsters may feel pain in a way similar to how humans do. It is certainly not settled science, it's an active area of research. But if there's even a 10% chance that lobsters feel pain, we are all monsters if we're eating tens of millions of them each year. It would mean that there's a Holocaust happening all around us, all the time.

Lobsters do not feel pain "the same way we do". And, boiling is a very quick end for a lobster. We take longer in such circumstances because we have a more advanced nervous system and we are much larger. No one would boil a cow alive on purpose.

Attempting to equate animals we eat to humans is how you perpetuate violence, not how you prevent it. When you compare boiling lobsters to the holocaust, you imply that killing human beings is no worse than killing a lobster... something that some extremist PETA folks actually do say. Even IF you wish to argue that there is evidence boiling lobsters is wrong, Comparing it killing a human being not advance your cause, it minimizes the real and true evil in killing a human being, particularly in such a manner for such a cause.

[Metsfanmax]

Lobsters do not feel pain "the same way we do".

That is a very definitive statement. Are you confident enough in it that you would wantonly inflict a cruel death on a sentient being on the theory (hope?) that you're right?

And, boiling is a very quick end for a lobster.

Why is that a relevant statement? Even if it only takes one or two minutes for a lobster to die when you drop it into a pot of boiling water, doing the same to a human would be considered one of the worst violations of laws against torture. If lobster physiology is such that they happen to get through it quicker, that doesn't somehow justify the practice, unless your point is that boiling a lobster alive is less bad than boiling a human alive, at which point I question why one would even make such a comparison.

We take longer in such circumstances because we have a more advanced nervous system and we are much larger. No one would boil a cow alive on purpose.

Really now? The animal agriculture industry routinely boils chickens alive as part of its slaughter process. There's a food industry devoted entirely to abnormally stuffing the liver of a different bird through force feeding, at which point we kill the bird and eat the liver. Female pigs are kept in crates where they cannot even turn around and baby male pigs have their testicles ripped out when they are born. Many cows are branded for identification even though much less painful methods of identification exist.

What is it exactly that makes you think that if boiling a cow alive was economically useful, that we wouldn't do it?

Attempting to equate animals we eat to humans is how you perpetuate violence, not how you prevent it.

Are you arguing that people who have more compassion for non-human animals are more violent than those who don't?

When you compare boiling lobsters to the holocaust, you imply that killing human beings is no worse than killing a lobster... something that some extremist PETA folks actually do say.

I am not willing to make that definitive a statement when it comes to lobsters, since I don't really understand how their nervous systems work -- but I would absolutely say that killing a human should not be worse than killing a pig from a legal perspective. To defend such a division would also require that you think that it's not as bad to murder someone who is profoundly mentally disabled.

Even IF you wish to argue that there is evidence boiling lobsters is wrong, Comparing it killing a human being not advance your cause, it minimizes the real and true evil in killing a human being, particularly in such a manner for such a cause.

Thank you for the advice on how best to go about my cause.

[patches70]

in comparison to freezing to death which eventually numbs your pain receptors or aomething and you don't experience the agony.

Well, if you don't think extremely violent shivering, extreme confusion, erratic heartbeat, loss of muscle control, extremely labored breathing and other various disturbing symptoms of severe hypothermia to not be agony then yeah, freezing to death involves no agony. Freezing to death ain't a good way to go. Then again, there are few ways that one might think as "a good way to go". The agony of burning to death or being boiled alive is pretty short lived when compared to freezing to death. You'll stop hurting when boiled alive a lot quicker than you'll stop hurting when freezing to death.


Either way, a quick bullet to the head is probably preferable than burning or freezing to death.
IMO. The worst thing about freezing to death is that you'll have your senses long enough to know that you are in some real trouble and that you are going to die, soon, and you won't be able to do a thing to stop it. You won't even have the ability to contemplate your loved ones by the time you've figured out your going to die because you'll be so cold your brain won't be able to think of anything at all except how freaking cold you are. Very strange things happen to a person's mind when they are freezing to death. That's a horrifying thing in and of itself, IMO, to slowly lose your mind while your body flails in vain to save itself by sacrificing your extremities.

Yeah, freezing to death is it's own brand of agony.

Are you sure about this? I'm willing to take your word because I'm very lazy but I really remember reading somewhere it was the other way around.

Freezing to death is very unpleasant (quite agonizing actually) until the very very end when your body just gives up trying to keep warm. That's the peaceful part of it and it's hell all the way up until that point.

If you wanna talk about a death that's actually peaceful in the way that you feel very little pain or distress and you don't want a big mess to clean up (like shooting yourself kind of mess), then carbon monoxide poisoning is the way to go. You'll get a bit disoriented, a little confused there near the end but then you'll just fall asleep and you won't wake up. There won't be convulsions, pain and such. You just get groggy and fall asleep. Accidental carbon monoxide poisoning when it happens, the victims are usually never even aware they are dying or in mortal danger.

Now that's peaceful. Freezing to death, not peaceful in the slightest but you can imagine that it is until you find yourself in that situation and you realize that it's not a very nice way to die. Burning to death, certainly not peaceful and one can't really imagine that it could be a peaceful way to go.

It's not just pain that makes death so agonizing, you have to also account for the mental anguish that is when one sees death coming and can't do anything about it. Freezing involves pain and long before you actually die the knowledge that you are going to die.

Now some real pain about freezing, is freezing and not actually dying but surviving. Being thawed out hurts so bad you wouldn't believe. I actually have some experience with this particular pain and it sucks. I actually froze my right foot pretty badly. Mild frostbite I'd say, from what I remember (I was pretty young). My foot had gone completely numb, turned a dark shade of yellow and had swollen up like a grapefruit. It was nasty looking. But as my foot was thawing out it felt like someone was stabbing millions of sewing needles into every millimeter of my foot and it was quite agonizing.

There was a little girl who froze nearly to death. Her core temp had dropped to some 58F or so and her limbs and body were frozen like ice. And she lived! Younger people are better able to withstand freezing apparently. I can only imagine how bad it must have hurt as she was thawing out. Hopefully she wasn't awake for that.

But don't let anyone kid you, freezing to death is a really sucky way to go. Maybe not the worst way, but certainly right up there in the top 20 worst ways to die in the wilderness.

[mrswdk]

Everyone knows: fresh is best.

[MrPanzerGeneral]

When I think of how many Americans could literally boil a lobster alive and then eat it, and think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, sometimes it doesn't make sense to me either. But the world still has a lot of horrible things left in it, and we should keep on striving to make it better. We do this by always standing on the side of justice, and not being silent when awful things happen.

Its an insect for fucks sake. A delicious one I might add.

Lobsters are crustaceans, which while being arthropods are certainly not insects and belong to a completely different subphylum.

But the important part is not what you call them -- it is whether they can feel pain. And there is lots of evidence that lobsters may feel pain in a way similar to how humans do. It is certainly not settled science, it's an active area of research. But if there's even a 10% chance that lobsters feel pain, we are all monsters if we're eating tens of millions of them each year. It would mean that there's a Holocaust happening all around us, all the time.

So... you don't put them in the freezer till they fall "asleep" before you cook them ? Heathen ! Barbarian !
Of course Lobsters feel pain ! You should hear them scream when they go into the pot ! (when they havn't been "cooled down" that is...). Even carrots feel pain (of a sorts) when they're pulled from the ground, so does grass when it's mowed, and trees when they lose a branch.... what's your point about the pain thingey ? There's also lots of "holocausts" going around on this world all the time ! You should see where I live ! Where last year all the blue pointers & hammerheads really dealt to the snapper & stingray, thinning them all out..(the sharks had a really good breeding season 2 years ago) which in turn, this year, has let the starfish run riot (snapper & stingray prey on them big time), so the cute little starfishies eat all the scallops and other shellfish to gay abandon..... which in turn leads the oyster catchers and other type bird life to decline (by starvation). She's a hard task master is Mother Nature