Dark clouds over France

[GoranZ]

After losing everything that can be lost... France decided not to deliver 2 Mistrals to Russia for which it will have to pay $3 bil. for braking the deal.

On top of everything it seems that no one is trusting France any more so India threatened to cancel its $22 bil. deal for 126 fighter jets. That will most-likely close Dassault Aviation and leave many Frenchmen on the streets.
http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/09/05 ... 38097.html

Poor French, they are not strong enough to keep their military industry from suffering devastating blows.

[saxitoxin]

After losing everything that can be lost... France decided not to deliver 2 Mistrals to Russia for which it will have to pay $3 bil. for braking the deal.

On top of everything it seems that no one is trusting France any more so India threatened to cancel its $22 bil. deal for 126 fighter jets. That will most-likely close Dassault Aviation

LMAO!!!



This went down better than any of us on the pro-Russia side could have imagined.

I do feel bad for France because it's clear, from Hollande's early comments, that they were being bullied into blocking the deal by the U.S. I wonder if anyone knew Russia was waiting to play the India card? This was absolutely brilliant strategic maneuvering by Putin. They'll write IR textbooks about this.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, for different reasons, this was also a brilliant strategic move by the U.S. After Dassault goes bankrupt, all the western Dassault customers, like Portugal and ... France, will have to buy from Boeing and Lockheed.

So both Putin and Obama scored a victory. Hollande turned out to be the useful idiot.

[saxitoxin]

[DoomYoshi]

Actually, for different reasons, this was also a brilliant strategic move by the U.S. After Dassault goes bankrupt, all the western Dassault customers, like Portugal and ... France, will have to buy from Boeing and Lockheed.

So both Putin and Obama scored a victory. Hollande turned out to be the useful idiot.

Tupolev still makes planes, although there has never been a good plane.*

*The Tu-154 isn't terrible, but it hasn't shown ability to bomb.

[DaGip]

Hollande set two conditions for delivery: the observation of a ceasefire in Ukraine and a political agreement between Moscow and Kiev.

The deal isn't over yet. Russia needs to comply.

[mrswdk]

Hollande set two conditions for delivery: the observation of a ceasefire in Ukraine and a political agreement between Moscow and Kiev.

The deal isn't over yet. Russia needs to comply.

No it doesn't. Those terms were not part of the contract between Russia and Dassault and are therefore of no relevance to the deal.

[betiko]

This is just russian propaganda, look at your source. We can always add the boats to the deal with the indians. This is not just USA/german pressure; the french government is absoltely against putin's actions in ukraine; they can't just act as if nothing happened and deliver the boats. Dubai is also going to sign a deal for 25 rafale planes normally.
By the way, Serge Dassault is a corrupt motherfucker who should go to jail. He's done some pretty nasty things to enter politics in a french town giving money to drug dealers to buy votes from a part of their population. The drug dealers have been asking for more money, there's been a few murders, car crashed into schools to put more pressure to get more money.

The other day I saw a program on tv showing how much french politics suck at selling our weapons. They basically all try to get the credits from the sales and end up driving the client government crazy. Morocco had a deal to buy a dozen rafale planes; but they screwed up as a few people tried to serve their own political interests and the king of morocco ended up buying f16 fighters. This has happened countless times with different governments interfering in deals. I do have a problem with all this though, the military industry is really something unethical. People should buy flowers instead of fighter jets to solve diplomatic conflicts.

[mrswdk]

People should buy flowers instead of fighter jets to solve diplomatic conflicts

Yeah, they should just show Kim Jong-Un a few clips from It's A Wondeful Life.

[saxitoxin]

The hungry Brits are already circling the French corpse ...

British defence secretary Michael Fallon, in fact, recently told TOI that the Eurofighter was fully ready to step in to fulfil India's requirements if negotiations for the Rafale failed. With IAF down to 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, IAF has identified the MMRCA project as its "topmost priority" for the Modi government. India is also pushing Russia, ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to stitch-up the futuristic project by next year.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 288396.cms

[DaGip]

Hollande set two conditions for delivery: the observation of a ceasefire in Ukraine and a political agreement between Moscow and Kiev.

The deal isn't over yet. Russia needs to comply.

No it doesn't. Those terms were not part of the contract between Russia and Dassault and are therefore of no relevance to the deal.

It does if it wants the boats. It doesn't make much sense that if Russia starts making acts of war against Europe that a European country starts selling arms to its enemy? Contracts are worthless when the vendee attacks the vendor. Of course, you could argue that Ukraine isn't a member of NATO; however, the Ukraine has a close partnership with NATO without being a member. I think the popularity of the Ukraine joining NATO has risen greatly among the Ukrainians since Putin's illegal invasion (under the pretext of protecting "Russians").

So yes, Russia needs to comply if it wants the boats, otherwise she can suck an Ortolan Bunting!

[betiko]

Hollande set two conditions for delivery: the observation of a ceasefire in Ukraine and a political agreement between Moscow and Kiev.

The deal isn't over yet. Russia needs to comply.

No it doesn't. Those terms were not part of the contract between Russia and Dassault and are therefore of no relevance to the deal.

It does if it wants the boats. It doesn't make much sense that if Russia starts making acts of war against Europe that a European country starts selling arms to its enemy? Contracts are worthless when the vendee attacks the vendor. Of course, you could argue that Ukraine isn't a member of NATO; however, the Ukraine has a close partnership with NATO without being a member. I think the popularity of the Ukraine joining NATO has risen greatly among the Ukrainians since Putin's illegal invasion (under the pretext of protecting "Russians").

So yes, Russia needs to comply if it wants the boats, otherwise she can suck an Ortolan Bunting!

Dassault is the company that makes jetfighters (and business jets and secret defense programs). It has nothing to do with the company that does the ships for russia wdk, just saying.
Indians are smart enough to understand the situation and might use it as a leverage to get a better deal with the french or whoever they will finally sign the contract with.
Unless they plan on invading pakistan before the jetfighters are ready, I doubt tha they are worried that france would decide to finally not deliver the planes.
It's pretty obvious that france would have an ethical problem to sell and deliver boats to a country that is doing something they are officially taking position against. The boats were signed in 2011 and the situation was obviously different at the time.

[GoranZ]

So yes, Russia needs to comply if it wants the boats, otherwise she can suck an Ortolan Bunting!

As far as I know Russia is buying them for money... So there is no need to comply for anything... $3 bil in return is quite good deal

Dassault is the company that makes jetfighters (and business jets and secret defense programs). It has nothing to do with the company that does the ships for russia wdk, just saying.
Indians are smart enough to understand the situation and might use it as a leverage to get a better deal with the french or whoever they will finally sign the contract with.
Unless they plan on invading pakistan before the jetfighters are ready, I doubt tha they are worried that france would decide to finally not deliver the planes.
It's pretty obvious that france would have an ethical problem to sell and deliver boats to a country that is doing something they are officially taking position against. The boats were signed in 2011 and the situation was obviously different at the time.

Indians are smart enough... Thrust has a lot when it comes to trade.

[saxitoxin]

Fun Fact - the submarine tender USS Dixon was the only U.S. Navy ship named after someone who sank a U.S. Navy ship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_E._Dixon

[betiko]

So yes, Russia needs to comply if it wants the boats, otherwise she can suck an Ortolan Bunting!

As far as I know Russia is buying them for money... So there is no need to comply for anything... $3 bil in return is quite good deal

Dassault is the company that makes jetfighters (and business jets and secret defense programs). It has nothing to do with the company that does the ships for russia wdk, just saying.
Indians are smart enough to understand the situation and might use it as a leverage to get a better deal with the french or whoever they will finally sign the contract with.
Unless they plan on invading pakistan before the jetfighters are ready, I doubt tha they are worried that france would decide to finally not deliver the planes.
It's pretty obvious that france would have an ethical problem to sell and deliver boats to a country that is doing something they are officially taking position against. The boats were signed in 2011 and the situation was obviously different at the time.

Indians are smart enough... Thrust has a lot when it comes to trade.

It's 1.2 billion euros or 1.7 billion dollars not 3.
I don t know if you meant thrust or trust, and if you meant thrust i got to say i don t understand what you mean. My answer is based on the fact that you meant trust, if it s not the case well sorry about that.
Russia is the one who broke our trust in the first place invading ukraine. We are not going to help them to continue such endeavours.
Now if the indian government is smart, they can ask for the 2 helicopter carriers for free, only worth 1.7 billion and we sign the rafale deal for 22 billions. Huge win for india, a big f*ck you to putin and france makes a point.
I heard a funny thing, there was a poll on a french online newspaper asking if france should sell the ships or not. There was 78% in favour and people on foreign media relayed the information. The thing is that 60% of the traffic came from russian IPs trolling the poll, so the french newspaper had to remove it!

[saxitoxin]

So yes, Russia needs to comply if it wants the boats, otherwise she can suck an Ortolan Bunting!

As far as I know Russia is buying them for money... So there is no need to comply for anything... $3 bil in return is quite good deal

Dassault is the company that makes jetfighters (and business jets and secret defense programs). It has nothing to do with the company that does the ships for russia wdk, just saying.
Indians are smart enough to understand the situation and might use it as a leverage to get a better deal with the french or whoever they will finally sign the contract with.
Unless they plan on invading pakistan before the jetfighters are ready, I doubt tha they are worried that france would decide to finally not deliver the planes.
It's pretty obvious that france would have an ethical problem to sell and deliver boats to a country that is doing something they are officially taking position against. The boats were signed in 2011 and the situation was obviously different at the time.

Indians are smart enough... Thrust has a lot when it comes to trade.

It's 1.2 billion euros or 1.7 billion dollars not 3.
I don t know if you meant thrust or trust, and if you meant thrust i got to say i don t understand what you mean. My answer is based on the fact that you meant trust, if it s not the case well sorry about that.
Russia is the one who broke our trust in the first place invading ukraine. We are not going to help them to continue such endeavours.
Now if the indian government is smart, they can ask for the 2 helicopter carriers for free, only worth 1.7 billion and we sign the rafale deal for 22 billions. Huge win for india, a big f*ck you to putin and france makes a point.
I heard a funny thing, there was a poll on a french online newspaper asking if france should sell the ships or not. There was 78% in favour and people on foreign media relayed the information. The thing is that 60% of the traffic came from russian IPs trolling the poll, so the french newspaper had to remove it!

On top of the refund, doesn't France have to pay a $300 million fine? If I were Russia, I'd take the $300M profit and send it straight to the Donetsk.

India just finished building their own aircraft carrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(2013), I doubt they'd want the cost of having to operate two more. I read somewhere that some people want Canada to buy the Mistrals. Canada can barely sail the ships it has right now - it usually has to get towed to their destination by the U.S. Navy. They'd be useful for Australia maybe but there's no way they could afford to operate both of them. They're probably too big for Japan to legally (?) operate. Given Brazilian-Russian friendship, I doubt Brazil would take them.

Betiko - maybe if France is nice they can get Macedonia to take them. GoranZ - what's the biggest lake in Macedonia?

[shickingbrits]

Ukraine was pro-Russia, try again Betiko.

[betiko]

Ukraine was pro-Russia, try again Betiko.

Yeah sure, that s why it all went all so smooth. Just go tell that to all the protesters who got murdered you smart person. Sure, many ukranians are pro russians. But the % depends on the regions, and the way it happened was anything but democratic.

[betiko]

On top of the refund, doesn't France have to pay a $300 million fine? If I were Russia, I'd take the $300M profit and send it straight to the Donetsk.

India just finished building their own aircraft carrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(2013), I doubt they'd want the cost of having to operate two more. I read somewhere that some people want Canada to buy the Mistrals. Canada can barely sail the ships it has right now - it usually has to get towed to their destination by the U.S. Navy. They'd be useful for Australia maybe but there's no way they could afford to operate both of them. They're probably too big for Japan to legally (?) operate. Given Brazilian-Russian friendship, I doubt Brazil would take them.

Betiko - maybe if France is nice they can get Macedonia to take them. GoranZ - what's the biggest lake in Macedonia?

Maybe putin could shovel it up his ass, he might reconsider gay rights in his country if he likes it.

They are not aircraft carriers, they are helicopter carriers. Hey there s two of them, I would sell 1 to the canadians and 1 to the australians with a discount, just because they are handsome.

[saxitoxin]

On top of the refund, doesn't France have to pay a $300 million fine? If I were Russia, I'd take the $300M profit and send it straight to the Donetsk.

India just finished building their own aircraft carrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(2013), I doubt they'd want the cost of having to operate two more. I read somewhere that some people want Canada to buy the Mistrals. Canada can barely sail the ships it has right now - it usually has to get towed to their destination by the U.S. Navy. They'd be useful for Australia maybe but there's no way they could afford to operate both of them. They're probably too big for Japan to legally (?) operate. Given Brazilian-Russian friendship, I doubt Brazil would take them.

Betiko - maybe if France is nice they can get Macedonia to take them. GoranZ - what's the biggest lake in Macedonia?

Maybe putin could shovel it up his ass, he might reconsider gay rights in his country if he likes it.

They are not aircraft carriers, they are helicopter carriers. Hey there s two of them, I would sell 1 to the canadians and 1 to the australians with a discount, just because they are handsome.

Having one anything carrier is like having a gf with only one breast. People will only want both or none.

[GoranZ]

It's 1.2 billion euros or 1.7 billion dollars not 3.

France will have to pay 3 for braking the contract

I don t know if you meant thrust or trust, and if you meant thrust i got to say i don t understand what you mean.

auto correct... wrong word

Now if the indian government is smart, they can ask for the 2 helicopter carriers for free, only worth 1.7 billion and we sign the rafale deal for 22 billions. Huge win for india, a big f*ck you to putin and france makes a point.

Typically French behavior... India will come to take those ships but will come with Russian crew, just enough to make you guys brake another contract
And if that is not enough you will gift those rafale planes to someone just to make a point(so they can screw you also)
I guess you want to be screwed a lot

[GoranZ]

Betiko - maybe if France is nice they can get Macedonia to take them. GoranZ - what's the biggest lake in Macedonia?

That would be Lake Ohrid... Deep enough but I'm not sure if environmentalist will allow "rust factory" in World Heritage site. If it was German steel, maybe we could have arrange it, but for French nah.
P.S. They paint Eiffel tower every couple of years

[shickingbrits]

You mean the protestors funded by the US and shot by the CIA? That's a convincing argument that a country who voted in a pro-Russian leader is anti-Russian.

[GoranZ]

You mean the protestors funded by the US and shot by the CIA? That's a convincing argument that a country who voted in a pro-Russian leader is anti-Russian.

I presume saxy is more teasing with betiko then implying the carriers to end up in my country... after all I wonder if anyone would want to see french ships in the middle of the oldest lake in Europe and one of the oldest lakes on the Planet.

[shickingbrits]

Sorry Goran, was talking to Betiko about Ukraine.

Can we save the bullshit for the people willing to believe it? Can we discuss the actual strategy and effectiveness and consequences or do we need to build a piñata before we can start talking about the loot?

France joined the US's terrorist ring, helped oust Gaddafi, sent their boys to Mali, where France and Canada got a piece of the pie, has been working with them in Syria and the Ukraine.

Putin called them out, China has sided with Russia. The lines have been drawn, proxy wars are in place and something is going to give before long.

You are on the French side, I hope that we can get rid of all major government, Goranz is on the Russian side, and Saxi is being coy acting like he doesn't know what's going on, being on a side that hasn't had a major contribution for decades.