Whodunnit? [19 Apr 2014] v10, p10 - Gameplay

[2007spaceodyssey]

Any idea when this one is about to be released?

[degaston]

Any idea when this one is about to be released?

The foundry seems kind of dead, but I am still working on the map. I've been trying to test it on the Beta site, but there are so few people there that it's difficult to get a game started, and even if you do, the whole thing could be wiped out at any time.

I've tried games with the bots, but they don't work properly with conditional borders, and they don't play well at all.

After starting a few games, I've made some changes to the starting neutrals. Here's what it looks like at the start:

Click image to enlarge.

[iAmCaffeine]

I'd like to see it in beta. It's a lot easier to judge gameplay and make adjustments once a few games have been played on it, take Krazy Kingdoms for example.

[degaston]

I'd like to see it in beta. It's a lot easier to judge gameplay and make adjustments once a few games have been played on it, take Krazy Kingdoms for example.

I'd like to see it available to be tested by the general population, too. But the "[Official] Conquer Club Mapmaker Handbook" has the map development path as:

1. Draft
2. Gameplay
3. Graphics
4. XML
5. Beta

I've made several posts talking about how backwards it is to give the gameplay stamp before ever testing the map. It's like publishing a cookbook without ever setting foot in a kitchen, and then once it's ready to be shipped, you try out the recipes to see if they taste good.

A more logical order would be:

1. Draft
2. XML
3. Beta
4. Gameplay
5. Graphics

In which case my map should have received the Beta stamp, and people could be testing the gameplay right now.

[iAmCaffeine]

I think for a long time the system has worked because the amount of highly complex maps has been so small, but now a much higher frequency of maps like yours are being produced and gameplay testing needs to be done more thoroughly and earlier, as you suggest.

[degaston]

I think for a long time the system has worked because the amount of highly complex maps has been so small, but now a much higher frequency of maps like yours are being produced and gameplay testing needs to be done more thoroughly and earlier, as you suggest.

Yes, the existing system was adequate (though not ideal) for simpler maps, but now that we have transformations and stages, it makes no sense to try to figure out if the gameplay works through discussion alone. If they want to get the best use of these features, then map developers need to be able to experiment with the XML and do real testing without having to worry about the graphics.

[iancanton]

no mapmaker is expected to figure out the gameplay by himself. among other things, the CAs are here to tell u what works and what is unlikely to be approved. although u are free to experiment with unapproved versions on the test site, previous experience shows that mapmakers can become utterly intransigent, refusing to listen to anyone, after a map reaches beta-quench stage and is available for general play, therefore beta-quench will always remain the final stage before full quench.

having played substantial portions of two competitive test games before the server update wiped them, i am happy enough with the gameplay structure to freeze the gameplay layout. by this, i mean that i shall not be asking u to add regions, remove regions or change connections unless the case for doing so is overwhelming. this liberates u to work on improving the graphics, secure in the knowledge that, as far as gameplay is concerned, i'm likely to request only changes to bonuses or neutrals.

that said, both of my test games (one 2v2 and one escalating polymorphic-2) developed roughly as i had predicted in my september post: the bedroom was secured first in both games, while the police station was ignored completely except for late into the poly-2 game, when my opponent cleverly conquered a weapon in a last-ditch attempt to stop one of his colours from being eliminated, knowing both that i needed one of my colours alone to conquer the whole of the same room before following him and that neither of my colours was strong enough to do so. perhaps the newly-reduced neutrals in the police station can improve things somewhat.

ian.

[degaston]

no mapmaker is expected to figure out the gameplay by himself. among other things, the CAs are here to tell u what works and what is unlikely to be approved. although u are free to experiment with unapproved versions on the test site, previous experience shows that mapmakers can become utterly intransigent, refusing to listen to anyone, after a map reaches beta-quench stage and is available for general play, therefore beta-quench will always remain the final stage before full quench.

This is exactly why I have been saying that the development stages are in the wrong order. Why would anyone be surprised that mapmakers would become intransigent about making major changes if they are required to finish the graphics before anyone is ever allowed to actually play the map? It's a pretty basic concept of game development that you start play-testing well before the graphics are in a finished state. Why they don't understand that here is beyond me.

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier post and say that the stages should be:

1. Draft
2. XML
3. Test/Gameplay
4. Graphics
5. Beta

Where the Test/Gameplay stage allows people to play the game before the graphics are in a finished state. I think you'd find that the less work people have put into the graphics, the more willing they'll be to make significant changes to the gameplay.

having played substantial portions of two competitive test games before the server update wiped them, i am happy enough with the gameplay structure to freeze the gameplay layout. by this, i mean that i shall not be asking u to add regions, remove regions or change connections unless the case for doing so is overwhelming. this liberates u to work on improving the graphics, secure in the knowledge that, as far as gameplay is concerned, i'm likely to request only changes to bonuses or neutrals.

I am not personally satisfied with the gameplay at this point, or perhaps I should say that I haven't played nearly enough games against human opponents to know if I'm satisfied, so I really don't want to put any more effort into the graphics yet.

You've only played part of two escalating games, where bonuses can quickly become insignificant compared to the card sets. Both of those games were essentially four person doubles games, where there is no need to worry about the strategic implications of maintaining the balance of power between three or more opponents. There are many other combinations that have yet to be tried, and it may be very difficult to find a structure that works adequately with all of them. I would certainly prefer to find out sooner, rather than later, what changes need to be made so that it will work under a variety of settings.

that said, both of my test games (one 2v2 and one escalating polymorphic-2) developed roughly as i had predicted in my september post: the bedroom was secured first in both games, while the police station was ignored completely except for late into the poly-2 game, when my opponent cleverly conquered a weapon in a last-ditch attempt to stop one of his colours from being eliminated, knowing both that i needed one of my colours alone to conquer the whole of the same room before following him and that neither of my colours was strong enough to do so. perhaps the newly-reduced neutrals in the police station can improve things somewhat.

ian.

Actually, I believe the garage was secured first in the doubles game we started, but the continents with the fewest territories are almost always secured first, so that is nothing unusual. The 1 reinforcement troop given for each of those rooms did not significantly alter the balance of power, so at this point, I don't see any need to reduce the bedroom bonus to 0 as you had suggested earlier. Also, I had taken a suspect in that game, and it was still pretty evenly balanced when it ended, so I don't think you can say that the police station would not have been a factor if the game had continued and I had later taken a detective.

I have many questions that I think can only be answered through playing the map. Are the weapons too powerful now? Should I remove or put a killer neutral between the secret passages? Should the suspects and weapons be able to bombard their symbols in the mansion? Should I limit the room bonuses to 0, 1, or 2 detectives? Should I use transformations to block the hallways until a certain round so that people will be forced to move into the police station? (I don't think so - I'd rather have it so that using the police station is a good strategy, but not the only strategy.)

I hope to play more games to try to get the gameplay right, but that may take a long time since I can't even get a simple 4 person game going on the Beta site. In any case, what I am intransigent about is that this is the correct way to develop a map, and that it is a waste of time to work on graphics before I am satisfied with the gameplay.

[2007spaceodyssey]

If I can be of any help feel free to ask me, I like the concept of this one.

[krycekal]

Well I would definitely like to test run this map!

[degaston]

Thanks for the interest, guys. If you're allowed to become beta testers, then I look forward to some test games.

Ian, just so you know, I appreciate your help with the map, and I'm not just trying to be difficult. Here are a few points from the Wiki page on game development:

Games go through development, alpha, and beta stages until finally being released.
...
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented.
...
Testers start work once anything is playable.
...
Placeholder graphics are characteristic of early game prototypes.

The map development process here is missing the alpha/test phase, and too much importance is being placed on the graphics, at too early a point in the lifecycle. This may work for simple maps, but I think it's a problem with more complicated ones, and is probably a big reason that some maps with potential have failed.

I just discovered the test accounts on the beta site today, and completed a two player poly game. It worked well, the police station played a big part, and the objective was used to win the game. Later I will try some games where one person uses the police station, and the other does not.

My thoughts at this point are:

• I think the secret passages are a problem. I think I'll either need to remove them, or find a way to put a killer neutral between them.
• I may need to add a connection directly from the suspect to the detective, and increase the neutrals on the detective back to 6.
• The police halls should also be 2 neutrals.
• I don't think the -1 decay in the halls is necessary, but I could be wrong.

[Armandolas]

I have to agree here with Degaston.
But the Draft should be allready a very nice one so when it comes into beta it allready has a high standard

For me commenting on gameplay is really hard without playing it.thats why i only comment when maps are allready in the beta stage
We could even make an eraly beta stage only to play against bots

Draft
XML
Test/Gameplay
Graphics
Beta

[lostatlimbo]

This is exactly why I have been saying that the development stages are in the wrong order. ](*,) Why would anyone be surprised that mapmakers would become intransigent about making major changes if they are required to finish the graphics before anyone is ever allowed to actually play the map? It's a pretty basic concept of game development that you start play-testing well before the graphics are in a finished state. Why they don't understand that here is beyond me.

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier post and say that the stages should be:

1. Draft
2. XML
3. Test/Gameplay
4. Graphics
5. Beta

Where the Test/Gameplay stage allows people to play the game before the graphics are in a finished state. I think you'd find that the less work people have put into the graphics, the more willing they'll be to make significant changes to the gameplay.

Belated, but *amen* to that.

[codierose]

might be silly question but is it in the realms of possibility to have the tiny description pics part of bob. Only reason i ask for me on a busy map like this and having small screen i find i hard to find everything, would be a nightmare for a speed game. if i could hover over pics with mouse and it showed me where it was would be awesome.
guard resets to 10 but at start its 5 ? is that right

[degaston]

might be silly question but is it in the realms of possibility to have the tiny description pics part of bob. Only reason i ask for me on a busy map like this and having small screen i find i hard to find everything, would be a nightmare for a speed game. if i could hover over pics with mouse and it showed me where it was would be awesome.
guard resets to 10 but at start its 5 ? is that right

Are you still actually using BOB, or are you talking about making a change to the "Map Inspect" feature? Either way, I don't think they would ever implement something like that for a number of reasons:

• They have no way of knowing where or what the legend symbols are because there is no information about them in the XML files.
• It would require a change to the XML specification - which happens very rarely.
• They have a very strong aversion to modifying existing XML files - it would require putting the maps back into beta to make sure they hadn't broken anything.
• There's a fairly limited number of maps that this would even be useful for.
• It becomes essentially useless once someone has learned how to play a map.

Even without adding this feature, I think it's not too difficult to figure out where the related symbols are and how they connect using the "Map Inspect" / BOB hi-lighting on the map. You can learn a lot about the map by playing bot games on it, even though the bots don't play well on it because they have no intelligence about the bonus structure. I wouldn't recommend playing speed games until you were familiar with it - like Waterloo and some other complicated maps.

It's playable on the Beta Site right now. If you're interested in trying it out, you'd need to become a beta tester:
testers wanted for beta site!

Right now, I have both the Guard and the Squad Car set to 5 Killer Neutrals, but I haven't update the legend to reflect that. They might change again.

[2007spaceodyssey]

Looking forward to it!

[loutil]

Not sure what the proper format for this should be or if this should be somewhere else?
Just played a complete game on that map and I find it quite tedious and very slow to develop. It seems you must conquer an entire room just to do any kind of advancement or growth. With a drop of only 3 this can take many turns even if uncontested. I can find almost no value for the notepad? The guard and police car require you to go through 10 neutrals just to pop out on the map when you can easily launch from a room at no cost. This map would take forever to complete if you accidentally played it trench style. In team games you would likely be smashing your own teammates to gain ground. Personally, I find nothing redeeming about it at all.
If my only purpose is to find bugs then I can report I did not find any.

[TimWoodbury]

i as well ayed it a 20 round game limit i didnt find anything odd about it, but i as well felt it was slow to devloop

[codierose]

might be silly question but is it in the realms of possibility to have the tiny description pics part of bob. Only reason i ask for me on a busy map like this and having small screen i find i hard to find everything, would be a nightmare for a speed game. if i could hover over pics with mouse and it showed me where it was would be awesome.
guard resets to 10 but at start its 5 ? is that right

Are you still actually using BOB, or are you talking about making a change to the "Map Inspect" feature? Either way, I don't think they would ever implement something like that for a number of reasons:

• They have no way of knowing where or what the legend symbols are because there is no information about them in the XML files.
• It would require a change to the XML specification - which happens very rarely.
• They have a very strong aversion to modifying existing XML files - it would require putting the maps back into beta to make sure they hadn't broken anything.
• There's a fairly limited number of maps that this would even be useful for.
• It becomes essentially useless once someone has learned how to play a map.

Even without adding this feature, I think it's not too difficult to figure out where the related symbols are and how they connect using the "Map Inspect" / BOB hi-lighting on the map. You can learn a lot about the map by playing bot games on it, even though the bots don't play well on it because they have no intelligence about the bonus structure. I wouldn't recommend playing speed games until you were familiar with it - like Waterloo and some other complicated maps.

It's playable on the Beta Site right now. If you're interested in trying it out, you'd need to become a beta tester:
testers wanted for beta site!

Right now, I have both the Guard and the Squad Car set to 5 Killer Neutrals, but I haven't update the legend to reflect that. They might change again.

cool so thats a no
was playing it on beta.

[codierose]

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... &start=150

[loutil]

Just played a complete game on that map and I found it somewhat tedious and very slow to develop. It seems you must conquer an entire room just to do any kind of advancement or growth. With a drop of only 3 this can take many turns even if uncontested. I can find almost no value for the notepad? The guard and police car require you to go through 10 neutrals just to pop out on the map when you can easily launch from a room at no cost. This map would take forever to complete if you played it trench style. In team games you would likely be smashing your own teammates to gain ground. I also struggled to understand the ledger and how the bonus system works although once the game was going it became easier.
I would have to play more games but I wonder how drop centric this map would play? I also wonder how it would play with a bit higher initial deploy or if that would make going first to much of an advantage?

[degaston]

Just played a complete game on that map and I found it somewhat tedious and very slow to develop. It seems you must conquer an entire room just to do any kind of advancement or growth. With a drop of only 3 this can take many turns even if uncontested. I can find almost no value for the notepad? The guard and police car require you to go through 10 neutrals just to pop out on the map when you can easily launch from a room at no cost. This map would take forever to complete if you played it trench style. In team games you would likely be smashing your own teammates to gain ground. I also struggled to understand the ledger and how the bonus system works although once the game was going it became easier.
I would have to play more games but I wonder how drop centric this map would play? I also wonder how it would play with a bit higher initial deploy or if that would make going first to much of an advantage?

The slow initial development of the map was somewhat intentional because I wanted to minimize the effect that luck (drop, dice, first move) had on the start of the game. The rooms separated by neutrals were intended to provide a buffer to make defense easier than offense in the mansion. One change I would like to make is putting a killer neutral between each of the secret passage connections, so that it was not so common for one player to control opposite corner rooms. That said, I am certainly open to changes in the number of neutrals, initial troops, deployment numbers, starting locations, etc.

Another reason for the slow initial development was to encourage the transition into the police station and notepad. From what I've seem, you've only played one game, and that was against a bot. The bots play horribly on this map because they don't understand the bonus structure. In the games that I've played, taking police station and notepad bonuses were very helpful to winning the game. Not that you can ignore what happens in the mansion, but I think it will usually be a losing strategy to focus exclusively on the mansion if the other player does not.

If you take a weapon bonus early on, the auto-deploy can build up a large number of troops over several rounds. These can be used at some point to charge into the interrogation rooms (at the cost of going through the guard), or back into the mansion (at the additional cost of going through the squad car), or to break an opponent's bonus in the notepad. Perhaps that section needs some re-design (maybe make the evidence room hallways killer 1's to avoid being blocked by your own troops?) to make those troops more useful, but I haven't played enough games on it to really know yet.

I haven't tried it on trench yet. Would it be any worse than playing Das Schloss on trench? And I thought "taking forever to complete" was kind of the point of trench anyway.

At one point I had a poll, and a number of people wanted this to be a conquest-style map, which is something I could still consider. It would make the initial development even slower, but it would allow me to make it so that the only way to win is through the objective.

One XML feature that I wish was available was conditional bombardment. I think it might be useful to allow the suspects and weapons to bombard their connections in the mansion under certain conditions.

[loutil]

I now have 2 games with you going on so I will wait till we play them through before I respond more. Good luck .

[robellis00]

Hey, I have been testing this map and I had a handful of issues come up in game Game #15858958 vs the bots.
I had control of suspect Mr Blue. (I had previously met the condition of controlling a room, which was the living room).
On Cybabe's turn in round 5, it was able to attack Mr Blue from Dining Room 1, even though it did not have control of that room nor any other.
I could be wrong, but that didn't seem right to me at all.

Also, in round 11, 12,13, Saxibot attacked terits that should have been off-limits!
Saxibot was able to attack suspect Mr White without control of the media room. Then it was able to attack the notepad without control of a detective (round 13).

Also in round 13, Cybabe was able to attack suspect Mr Orange without control of the Office.

Anyone else get this bug?

I have been trying everywhere to attack things that are offlimits, but have had no such luck yet. Seems the bots found a way.

[degaston]

That's a bug in the bots, not the map. The bots aren't restricted by conditional borders.