EASTERN FRONT map Discussion(Image page 1)

[mibi]

I've noticed the foundry has developed in the recent months an attitude of perfectionism. Most mapmakers are currently adhering to this local unspoken social norm, and qwert broke it, since he's not that good at English to begin with and can't possibly pick up on the subtleties that go unsaid. So now, he's getting all sorts of shit for it, and so are people who either didn't pick up on this new silent trend, or didn't care that much about having extremely stringent standards to begin with.

I guess the take-home message is that either qwert must cave and also become a perfectionist, or the foundry must loosen its standards.

Qwert could be accused of many things, but not of not being a perfectionist. His maps are great. Putting it out there as it is now, would certainly only serve to raise the general standards of the maps, not lowering it.

If there's an unspoken, social norm in the Foundry forum that a mapmaker must do all the changes that people suggest (which seems contrary to the rules posted), well… that seems to be the problem, not Qwert.

Even though some people seem to believe that the only ones entitled to an opinion is the ones who hang around in the Foundry forum 24/7, well… All we outsiders are saying is that we like the map and that we don’t see what possible good those proposed changes could do. And, under those circumstances, we believe it’s the map maker who reasonably should have the last call. Not whining map-wannabes.

Four maps have entered Final Forge status and 3 maps have been quenched this week alone. I don't think you will find anyone who thinks any of them are perfect. What you will find is a collection of map makers who are able and willing to work with the foundry process to get a high quality map in play.

I am not sure of this unspoken rule you speak of. My latest map, D-Day has plenty of suggestions that I chose not to heed. I backed every decision with a thorough explanation, and it seemed to placate people for the most part. I have also yielded to changes after someone refuted and counter my explanation. At no time did i whip out my dick to engage in a pissing match with any foundry member. This may be the reason qwert's map has stalled.

[hulmey]

That's how its meant to work. In theory it does not always work like that. Espically when the map maker can hardly express himself in english.

And i challenge antbody to go and see your disaster for a desert and come back and tell me ifthat dont look like candy floss stock on a map. You moulded the vote to how you wanted it to turn out.

Another thing we have alot of nice new maps with crap playability - KOTM, Checkers. Is that perfectionism?

Oh and another thing we had actually started to make progress with finishing this map WITHOUT your help when you come along with your perfectionism and map foundry chit chat. As usual i suspect kissing arse or trying to throw Qwert's map of course

[tahitiwahini]

I've noticed the foundry has developed in the recent months an attitude of perfectionism. Most mapmakers are currently adhering to this local unspoken social norm, and qwert broke it, since he's not that good at English to begin with and can't possibly pick up on the subtleties that go unsaid. So now, he's getting all sorts of shit for it, and so are people who either didn't pick up on this new silent trend, or didn't care that much about having extremely stringent standards to begin with.

I guess the take-home message is that either qwert must cave and also become a perfectionist, or the foundry must loosen its standards.

Qwert could be accused of many things, but not of not being a perfectionist. His maps are great. Putting it out there as it is now, would certainly only serve to raise the general standards of the maps, not lowering it.

If there's an unspoken, social norm in the Foundry forum that a mapmaker must do all the changes that people suggest (which seems contrary to the rules posted), well… that seems to be the problem, not Qwert.

Even though some people seem to believe that the only ones entitled to an opinion is the ones who hang around in the Foundry forum 24/7, well… All we outsiders are saying is that we like the map and that we don’t see what possible good those proposed changes could do. And, under those circumstances, we believe it’s the map maker who reasonably should have the last call. Not whining map-wannabes.

That's it exactly, well said.

The foundry has so divorced itself from reality in this matter that it finds it extremely uncomfortable to be confronted with an opinion that doesn't come from within it's incestuous little enclave. No wonder the critics were so anxious to shut this thread down before it got the attention of members beyond the confines of the foundry.

The foundry process is broken and needs to be fixed. The measure of the success of the foundry is not the number of great maps that have been produced in the last six months, but rather the number of great maps that haven't been produced in the last six months, and the opportunity cost of those mapmakers who will simply not participate in such a fatuous process that places a critic's inane and incomprehensible comments on the same level as the creative work of a talented map maker.

The foundry is shooting itself in the foot by continuing to pretend that all is well, no problem, nothing to see here, move along.

The truth is there is no meaningful difference between the two maps. If the critics really believed there were they would be the first to put up my proposed poll. They well know that to the average player, you know the person who is actually going to be attracted to the site and actually play the game, there two maps are for all practical purposes indistinguishable. The poll would bear this out.

There have been serious flaws in the maps that have been released from the foundry, for example, an error in the Senate.xml, so I remain unconvinced that the process is really doing anything useful in terms of delivering quality maps for the site.

Finally, I find it amusing that some posters feel compelled to explain to me what topics I may comment on and which topics I may not. Apparently their astounding arrogance knows no limits.

[alster]

Finally, I find it amusing that some posters feel compelled to explain to me what topics I may comment on and which topics I may not. Apparently their astounding arrogance knows no limits.

I guess you should have known better than to give a few politely worded opinions on a matter in the General forum. God forbid if more people started taking such liberties...

[Guiscard]

The foundry process is broken and needs to be fixed. The measure of the success of the foundry is not the number of great maps that have been produced in the last six months, but rather the number of great maps that haven't been produced in the last six months, and the opportunity cost of those mapmakers who will simply not participate in such a fatuous process that places a critic's inane and incomprehensible comments on the same level as the creative work of a talented map maker.

The foundry is shooting itself in the foot by continuing to pretend that all is well, no problem, nothing to see here, move along.

Although the majority of this ridiculous post doesn't deserve a response, would you care to name them?

I can count one, at the moment.

And it is all well and good criticising foundry process, but firstly where have you been when the discussion has been raging within the foundry itself? I've never seen you post there... And how many maps have you made or commented on recently?

Before you spout your mouth off please consider that some of us give a lot of our time and effort to the foundry because, quite frankly, we love the game too. Do you know how insulting it is for someone to just blast down everything that many people have worked to create over the last 6 months or so? Would you like us to go back to the free-for-all that produced the Middle East map or Circus Maximus?

Quite frankly, Qwert's map would have been quenched perhaps 3 or 4 months ago if he had worked WITH the foundry rather than against it. You cannot place 100% of the blame on the foundry when it is Qwert who has obstructed the processes of his own map. You might not see the current changes as needed, but he also kicked up the same kind of fuss, with all the same storming-off-never-to-return and stupid polls, over the borders when they were jagged, pixellated and accepted by everyone unanimously as needing to be changed.

THAT is the reason why we get annoyed when people judge the foundry without reading the thread. I think Mibi said it best a few pages back, but this is really taking the piss now.

[Qwert]

Guiscard
A map-maker must implement all suggestions made unless he/she can argue successfully in favour of either keeping it the same or implementing one option over another.

very good, but have can i put my logical explanation when person who give hes sugestion never again go back in my topic.
If you want to make some discussion of some issue you must have 2 side not 1 who give hes sugestion and leave.

[Guiscard]

Guiscard
A map-maker must implement all suggestions made unless he/she can argue successfully in favour of either keeping it the same or implementing one option over another.

very good, but have can i put my logical explanation when person who give hes sugestion never again go back in my topic.
If you want to make some discussion of some issue you must have 2 side not 1 who give hes sugestion and leave.

OK Qwert, what is your logical explanation behind not putting shadows behind the helmets in the legend?

What about moving the Saaremaa label left so it looks more connected to the territory it is supposed to represent?

Those are just two.

[mibi]

The foundry has so divorced itself from reality in this matter that it finds it extremely uncomfortable to be confronted with an opinion that doesn't come from within it's incestuous little enclave. No wonder the critics were so anxious to shut this thread down before it got the attention of members beyond the confines of the foundry.

Thank you for your insights on the foundry process. It certainly means a lot coming from someone who never posts there and has said their self they 'rarely visit'. You obviously must know more than anyone what is going on there. /sarcasm.

Seriously Tahiti, you are talking out of your ass and you know it. We love opinions from outside our 'incestuous little enclave', but please do it IN THE FOUNDRY where it belongs. Never have we railed against someones opinion who isn't part of the core foundry posters, but ofcouse you woulnd't know that, you never go there.

The foundry process is broken and needs to be fixed. The measure of the success of the foundry is not the number of great maps that have been produced in the last six months, but rather the number of great maps that haven't been produced in the last six months, and the opportunity cost of those mapmakers who will simply not participate in such a fatuous process that places a critic's inane and incomprehensible comments on the same level as the creative work of a talented map maker.

Right, just how many great maps have been not been produced in the last six months? Seriously, how would even know if you never go there? If you did you would know its minimal. You would also be aware of the sheer mass of crappy maps that never make it out of the gate because they get blasted with criticism, believe me, its a ton. Also, there are many map makers who have cut their teeth in the foundry process and their map makings abilities have improved tenfold. CairnsWK is a good example, the first draft of his first map sucked, and he was hit with tons of criticism, and he improved and got a great map quenched. He took that confidence and currently as two more sweet looking maps on their way through the foundry, but ofcourse you wouldn't know that since you never go there.

The foundry is shooting itself in the foot by continuing to pretend that all is well, no problem, nothing to see here, move along.

Now here is a great example of your ignorance. Do you know how many threads have been started about fixing the foundry process? Do you know how many maps have pages worth of dialog about how the foundry process works? No, you don't, because YOU NEVER GO THERE. The foundry process is always up for discussion, feel free to actually stop by once and a while.

The truth is there is no meaningful difference between the two maps. If the critics really believed there were they would be the first to put up my proposed poll. They well know that to the average player, you know the person who is actually going to be attracted to the site and actually play the game, there two maps are for all practical purposes indistinguishable. The poll would bear this out.

Its not about being indistinguishable, its about which is better. And widowmakers only adressed some of the proposed changes, which he said, and somehow went over your head.

There have been serious flaws in the maps that have been released from the foundry, for example, an error in the Senate.xml, so I remain unconvinced that the process is really doing anything useful in terms of delivering quality maps for the site.

that really has nothing to do with the foundry, we dont scrutinize xml code. It's really up to the coder to make sure the code is free of errors. But if that is all you can fault the foundry for then I applaud your laughable effort.

Finally, I find it amusing that some posters feel compelled to explain to me what topics I may comment on and which topics I may not. Apparently their astounding arrogance knows no limits.

As I said before, feel free to start a topic in the foundry, or ya know, post a comment every once in a while. It would give some credence to you diatribes instead of jsut being diarrhea of the mouth. I don't mean to tell you which topics you can comment on, just which ones people might give a shit about what you say, considering you know nothing about the topic you are commenting on. Do you remember my lengthy rants about spamalot and the mods? Oh you don't? Thats because I don't know shit about spamalot or the mods, so any rant would have been confined to a few short sentences. However you obviously can't help yourself. Sorry tahiti, your reputation as an informational asset to the forums is diminished with each ignorant, self righteous, sentence that spews from your fingers in to this thread.

[hulmey]

Guiscard, Nobody is placing 100% blame on the foundry!!!! When you state WE in your posts whom do you mean???

I doubt you have the backing of the foundry. Who do u you think you are????

And as for mibi alot of respect to your graphical abilities but im afraid tactically ALL you maps are quite bad. And when i suggest things you just come up with some bullshit.

[Qwert]

first-Saarema is moved because somebody say that is better to move that submarine can be visible(i realy can not remember who these sugested)so i move and nobody complane,and i belive that everybody can se that these terittory belonge to sarrema.
Second- like i write in my explanation Last bonus issue been shadows in country name box and i fix these(even Andy been satisfy with these)also nobody complain even when my map been in final forge status,and now Keyogi complain.
Now you starting something very strange,you want to ask for every thing in my map explanation.
In last several pages you constantly want to start fight agains me,why you doing these,I left yours topic,because i dont want to arguing with you but its look that you want to fight against me.

[weirdbro]

I don't pretend to know all too much about the foundry, but I take a look in every once in a while.
You people keep arguing.
Keyogi, Qwert can't please everyone, and for the moment, he just can't please you. I guess he just disagrees with your suggestions, so insisting that he fixes what he doesn't think is broken just won't work.
Qwert, you might want to try compromising. It would be nice if the submarine was visible, and I also think it would be nice if Saaremaa was touching its territory. How about moving the submarine up and to the left, and putting the name of the territory itself? I don't see how anyone could disagree with that.

And seriously, needing a 9 page topic just to fight over whether or not a map is done is just plain stupid.

[RobinJ]

Have you seen the 120 page one in the foundry? Most of it is absolutely ridiculous and utter bullshit. So much this is the case that I think I will refrain from posting any more opinions and just let qwert, andy and Keyogi sort it out. (advice that could be given to quite a few others, may I add)

[Guiscard]

Guiscard, Nobody is placing 100% blame on the foundry!!!! When you state WE in your posts whom do you mean???

I doubt you have the backing of the foundry. Who do u you think you are????

And as for mibi alot of respect to your graphical abilities but im afraid tactically ALL you maps are quite bad. And when i suggest things you just come up with some bullshit.

I am referring to those who are included in Tahitiwahini's 'incestuous little enclave'... You probably come under that label too, Hulmey... Basically he's referring to all those who think Qwert still needs to make changes in his map. I think you'll find he didn't lay a single speck of blame on Qwert when he said 'The foundry process is broken and needs to be fixed.' 'The foundry has so divorced itself from reality in this matter that it finds it extremely uncomfortable to be confronted with an opinion that doesn't come from within it's incestuous little enclave.'

Apparently we all just bitch and whine with the express aim of never producing any maps at all!

Is this kind of abuse really justified in your opinion, Hulmey?

And this isn't the place to debate the gameplay of Mibi's maps. The Foundry has its own forum for a reason and I think we should stick to the correct and corresponding threads.

[Guiscard]

And seriously, needing a 9 page topic just to fight over whether or not a map is done is just plain stupid.

Yep. But try 120 pages.

[weirdbro]

And seriously, needing a 9 page topic just to fight over whether or not a map is done is just plain stupid.

Yep. But try 120 pages.

Aw, now I'm gonna be depressed. Why'd you have to remind me about that, Guicard?

My faith in humanity would have been kicked down a notch from that, except I live in the USA, so it was brought down a while ago.

[Qwert]

Guiscard
And this isn't the place to debate the gameplay of Mibi's maps. The Foundry has its own forum for a reason and I think we should stick to the correct and corresponding threads.

These also not place for you to arguing with others people,move to flame wars and start yours topic,when you can arguing with others people

[Guiscard]

Guiscard
And this isn't the place to debate the gameplay of Mibi's maps. The Foundry has its own forum for a reason and I think we should stick to the correct and corresponding threads.

These also not place for you to arguing with others people,move to flame wars and start yours topic,when you can arguing with others people

I don't think this topic should exist at all, Qwert, but it is this forum that Tahitiwahini decided to impose upon us his lovely little diatribe. He said himself he doesn't read the other forums, so why bother responding there?

[ITAPEVI]

RACIST

[demigod]

imho this map is boring... it's really no different to most of the ones out there. (sorry qwert nothing personal)

how many of the same style map do we really need. they clotter the screen when you try and find decent maps to play on.

[Coleman]

And seriously, needing a 9 page topic just to fight over whether or not a map is done is just plain stupid.

Yep. But try 120 pages.

Hey, Ak_Iceman. If you want some more topics to delete.

[Dancing Mustard]

RACIST

Are you lost or something?

[jiminski]

Sheeesh! What a load of fannying-about.

Sorry I am no expert in any of this but I have followed this ‘discussion’ and it seems to be stuck in a never-ending cycle. Most of you have good points which you very obviously care about but the map is not getting made like this.

In my very simple mind (hehe something for you to abuse me about perhaps) I see the following:

Qwert: you want to be helped in making the changes to the map and would like assistance with understanding what needs to be done?
(With pictures to illustrate)

Widowmaker: you know exactly what needs to be done to get the map quenched and can help him?

KEYOGI: you have gone on a sabbatical to see if the colours of the Eastern Front terrain are true to the map, let us know your findings.

What you reckon? Any chance this can be resolved without meandering into copyright law again... or the dull whisper of endemic evil within the Foundry process?
Or do we need to storm the Reichstag and over-throw the fascist junta?

[JMody]

I got an Idea!!!

Foundry staff has final say right? Qwert, if you want your map playable DO WHAT THEY SAY!!!! Otherwise don't expect it to be accepted. And don't bitch when it is not.

[hulmey]

^^the foundry in theory does not work like that my friend. Andy or keyogi has no more say than any other member of the map foundry.

Although their opinon is held in high regard by me and everyone else close to the foundry.

However Qwert thinks keyogi is picking on him and keyogi i imagine is just sick of qwert. So................the story continues.

But andy has posted in keyogi thread so we may have alast dich at seeing this map finished. i think qwert is a little bit more understanding now ( we hope)

[Georgerx7di]

how come nobody quotes me?