EASTERN FRONT map Discussion(Image page 1)

[RobinJ]

As the author has the most invested in the map

I think you'll find technically LackAttack has the most invested in the map actually...

C.

I stand by the full quote.

As the author has the most invested in the map I'll overlook a certain amount of defensiveness and emotion as the price I'm willing to pay for the author sharing his creative work with the rest of us.

While LackAttack clearly has the most invested in the site it is quite clear to me that the map author has the most invested in the map. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe LackAttack is a paying customer of the map author. As such it seems to me his or his delegate's role in this transaction is to offer suggestions to the map author which deserve consideration by the author and logical explanations from the author. As the owner of the site, LackAttack or his agent, has the final say whether the map is accepted into the site or not.

My role as a CC member is to express my opinion of how the process has worked in this case and I've done so.

If I had any desire to submit my own map to this site what I've seen of qwert's experience here would cause me to seriously reconsider.

Tahitiwahini, while I respect your views on almost everything, as they do tend to be very knowledgeable and elaborate, I have rarely, if ever, seen you in the Foundry. If you would take the time to explore you will find that most mapmakers are accepted willingly - qwert is just a little more awkward (but one of the best). So please read into the matter more and get yourself a platform to stand on. Then, I will respect your opinion.

Try this

[Guiscard]

I for one am tired of flogging this bloody dead horse over and over and trotting out the same arguments in response to ridiculous and childish ultimatums given by Qwert. I have no idea why the Mods have let this thread spill over into other forums, but at the end of the day this is the key fact:

QWERT'S MAP WILL NEVER BE QUENCHED WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF ANDY AND KEYOGI (AS LACK'S APPOINTED MODS). THEY BELIEVE CHANGES STILL NEED TO BE MADE, AS DO MANY OTHER PEOPLE INCLUDING MYSELF. WE HAVE STATED WHAT CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE REPEATEDLY AND IN DETAIL. EVEN IF 99% OF CC'ERS VOTE THAT IT IS PERFECT IT WILL NOT GET QUENCHED WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF ANDY AND KEYOGI. THE FOUNDRY IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. DEAL WITH IT AND STOP BEING SO CHILDISH.

Imagine me shouting that in the style of the recent Panorama Scientology outburst and you'll be approaching the amount of annoyance this map has caused many of the foundry's major contributors. And hopefully you'll understand why I'm not gonna post anything to do with the map until Qwert starts making changes again.

...and breathe...

[Qwert]

Guiscard if you dont like me go to flame wars, i dont troling nobody here and dont insulting, i just want to find solution for these map, and i realy dont understand why you forget everything with borders work because you sugested changing borders and i change borders like you say, but now you every these thing forget and you very good know that i change borders like you want and like comunity want.

[Qwert]

I open normal discission here, and first Mibi, and then Guiscard want to create war tension. Please if you hate me or my map go to Flame wars forum.

[Guiscard]

Ok, first thing I'm going to mention is the territory names since they seem to be the latest issue. I'm fine with all of them except for one... Isthmus of Perekop. It's quite long and I'm wondering what sort of impact it will have on the drop-down menu. Would it be a problem to just call it Perekop?

The other major issue recently was the borders. These still appear to be a problem. I wonder if reducing the opacity of them slightly would help.

The colour of Stalingrad Army is bothering me. It's pretty awful and unless it has some significance I'm sure you could come up with a nicer shade of green.

Another concern is the army shadows. They pratically disappear in von Rundstedt Army and it's something that I think could be fixed in one of two ways. Change the shade of the army shadows themselves or change the shade of von Rundstedt Army so the shadows are more visible. The shadows also seem to have a faint white edge on them which gives them a rough/aliased look.

It was mentioned some time ago (by I can't remember who) that the legend shadows could possibly be changed. I don't mind the legend staying as it is, but I would like to see the helmets and star given a shadow as well to lift them off the board like the rest of the legend.

I'm not sure the sea labels are needed. They kind of look cramped in there.

Lastly, is there any signifcance to the pictures and foreign text underneath your name on the map? I'm curious to what they mean/represent.

[Qwert]

Quote:
KEYOGI wrote:
Ok, first thing I'm going to mention is the territory names since they seem to be the latest issue. I'm fine with all of them except for one... Isthmus of Perekop. It's quite long and I'm wondering what sort of impact it will have on the drop-down menu. Would it be a problem to just call it Perekop?

The other major issue recently was the borders. These still appear to be a problem. I wonder if reducing the opacity of them slightly would help.

The colour of Stalingrad Army is bothering me. It's pretty awful and unless it has some significance I'm sure you could come up with a nicer shade of green.

Another concern is the army shadows. They pratically disappear in von Rundstedt Army and it's something that I think could be fixed in one of two ways. Change the shade of the army shadows themselves or change the shade of von Rundstedt Army so the shadows are more visible. The shadows also seem to have a faint white edge on them which gives them a rough/aliased look.

It was mentioned some time ago (by I can't remember who) that the legend shadows could possibly be changed. I don't mind the legend staying as it is, but I would like to see the helmets and star given a shadow as well to lift them off the board like the rest of the legend.

I'm not sure the sea labels are needed. They kind of look cramped in there.

Lastly, is there any signifcance to the pictures and foreign text underneath your name on the map? I'm curious to what they mean/represent.

Logical explanation
Quote:
qwert wrote
Now i will try to logical explane Keyogis sugestion
1.I have big and long discusion of names, and finaly i agree with people that all names must be in 1 translation and these translation is russian, and every names is original translation. So these problem is finish.
2.Borders-every body know that i present 5 diferent example with 5 diferent smooth and blur borders with 10%,15%,20%,25% and 30% of opacity, and majority vote for 20%.
3.The colours of Stalingrad Army, well i must say that nobody complains with these, because in begining i work with colours of territory, even Keyogi dont have problems with these, but when i finaly finish last issue, he sudenly dont like colours of these terittory, and why he dont say these in begining, but he waith 2 month to say these. If i dont like something i will say right now and dont waith 2 month.
4. All army shadows is same, and when you put army number, you can se all numbers without any problems.
5.I realy dont understand why Keyogi whait and when something pass majority approval he start complaining, these also been finish and nobody have major complain(except bonus value)
6.Sea labels- well these not decision of 1 person, and i have atention to put in poll vote,I put sea labels to people can better understand location of EAstern Front.

Thank Guiscard, but why you dont put my logical explanation,you look only 1 side and dont want even to try to put my explanation.
I will be happy to discisse with Keyogi with all hes sugestion,and my explanation if he want too talk with me.

[hulmey]

Ok can the 2 mods of the foundry (who do look at this thread, please dont hide) come forward and for the love of god tellQwert what needs to be finished so this map can be FINAL forged, quenched or whatever it is you do. Again please respond to my comment for the sake of the people who want to play this map

[podge]

Ok I have read Keyogi's requests and your response and to be quite honest I dont think you have answered one of his questions so perhaps you would answer mine.

1. isthmus of perekop: keyogi wasn't saying the translation was wrong, he was concerned about the length of the text and the effect it would have on the dropdown box, Quite a valid point in my opinion. can you see his point here ? yes or no.

2. The color of stalingrad army: Does that color have any special significane ? yes or no.

3. The army shadows: yes they do disappear in von Rundstedt Army, I know that you can still see the amount of armies but in von Rundstedt Army it appears there is no shadow at all. do you see this ? yes or no.

4. It was mentioned some time ago (by I can't remember who) that the legend shadows could possibly be changed. I don't mind the legend staying as it is, but I would like to see the helmets and star given a shadow as well to lift them off the board like the rest of the legend: would this improve the look of the map ? yes or no.

5. Lastly, is there any signifcance to the pictures and foreign text underneath your name on the map? I'm curious to what they mean/represent. Please answer.

This is not intended to have a go at you Quert, I am simply looking for a way to bring this to an end and to get your map into use.


ps I have directly quoted some of keyogi's previous post simply because it was easier than typing it all in again.

[tahitiwahini]

Tahitiwahini, while I respect your views on almost everything, as they do tend to be very knowledgeable and elaborate, I have rarely, if ever, seen you in the Foundry. If you would take the time to explore you will find that most mapmakers are accepted willingly - qwert is just a little more awkward (but one of the best). So please read into the matter more and get yourself a platform to stand on. Then, I will respect your opinion.

Try this

Guilty as charged, I don't spend much time in the map foundry. I found it to be an extremely frustrating place to be. I attempted to read the following thread but eventually had to give up somewhere on page 6 or 7 or burst a blood vessel:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9328

The purpose as I understand it of the map foundry is to expose maps under development to criticism thereby improving the overall quality of the map before it is accepted as one of the official game maps. The level of criticism I've found in that thread is sophomoric at best, for example: "that yellow is crap." That the author is expected to respond thoughtfully to such drivel is obscene. If the map author is held to a high standard how about holding the critics of the map to the same high standard. So, no I've no desire to witness a parade of imbeciles hurl moronic suggestions at the author. I witness enough of that in real life, I don't need to see anymore of it here. If it's true that most mapmakers accept that kind of ordeal willingly then I can't express how much such news saddens me. Those mapmakers are either masochists or have somehow learned how to suffer fools gladly. Personally I don't have the stomach to participate in such a degrading spectacle, so no you won't find me in the map foundry very often.

The thought that such a process results in superior maps is ludicrous. It's far more likely that it discourages potential creators from even getting involved in the process. It's not necessary to the creative process to compel the author to jump through a myriad of hoops in the hope of appeasing an amorphous and contradictory committee of critics. I daresay the game engine of CC went through no such process. I'm also pretty sure that stocksr's greasemonkey script (newly named BOB) didn't "benefit" from any such process either. Both are exemplars of superior craftsmanship, but I suspect neither lack nor stocksr would have put up with the sort of nonsense I saw in the thread referenced above. To the extent that we have great maps at CC credit is due to the mapmaker and precious little to the map foundry process itself.

[jiminski]

No offense intended Tahiti but is this helping the map get made?

The requests did not seem to be over-zealous from the foundry and they appeared to be courteous from what i read.

Weren't we at a point where Qwerty was willing to talk through the points in order to resolve this? hehe Maybe I am being naive as this seems to have dragged on.

Qwert, can you have a chat with KEYOGI and just get the map made? It looks like you did not make the changes he requested unless i am not understanding correctly.

[tahitiwahini]

Ok I have read Keyogi's requests and your response and to be quite honest I dont think you have answered one of his questions so perhaps you would answer mine.

1. isthmus of perekop: keyogi wasn't saying the translation was wrong, he was concerned about the length of the text and the effect it would have on the dropdown box, Quite a valid point in my opinion. can you see his point here ? yes or no.

I don't mean to pick on you podge, but the first question is an example of the type of stupid question I'm flabbergasted the author is expected to respond to. I guess people have drummed into us for so long that there's no such thing a stupid question that we've actually come to believe that malarkey.

"Isthmus of Perekop" is 18 letters long. What effect will it have on the dropdown box? I would guess pretty much the same effect as "Northwest Territories" (22 characters long), "Eastern United States" (21) and
"Western United States" (21) have in the Classic map, that is, none.

So, in my opinion that is the kind of ill-considered question that the foundry process forces the mapmaker to spend time answering. That answer was easily found in http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Classic.xml. If that's an example of the expertise that can be found in the map foundry, then perhaps I'm not missing a lot by not reading there.

[podge]

Good point Tahiti I bow before you now what about the rest of the post ?

[jiminski]

can't deny that!

[tahitiwahini]

No offense intended Tahiti but is this helping the map get made?

The requests did not seem to be over-zealous from the foundry and they appeared to be courteous from what i read.

What's not helping the map get made is that fact that the map foundry process (at least in this case) has been drug out with mindless trivia being substituted for legitimate criticism.

It's obvious to me that qwert has apparently pissed off the powers-that-be in map foundry land and they have exacted their revenge by making him submit to these fatuous series of questions most of which quite frankly don't merit a response. It's unfortunate that qwert's native language apparently isn't English so that alone puts him at a disadvantage when responding to this nonsense.

This has become a classic pissing contest and it's clear to me who holds all the power.

I've heard it said that when one presents at critical design review it's a good plan to always put at least one hideous color combination on one screen so that the reviewers will notice it and ask to have it changed. This makes them feel like they are part of the design process and if the hideous color combination wasn't there then they would have complained about something else of a less trivial nature. There's an aspect of a review committee that needs to justify it's existence by pointing out something, no matter how trivial. That's what I think is going on here and I think the CC community is poorer for it.

[tahitiwahini]

Ok I have read Keyogi's requests and your response and to be quite honest I dont think you have answered one of his questions so perhaps you would answer mine.

1. isthmus of perekop: keyogi wasn't saying the translation was wrong, he was concerned about the length of the text and the effect it would have on the dropdown box, Quite a valid point in my opinion. can you see his point here ? yes or no.

No I can't see your point. But here's my suggestion: go look through all the xml and if you find in one a country name that's longer than 18 characters then you've answered you're own question and you needn't have bothered asking me.

2. The color of stalingrad army: Does that color have any special significane ? yes or no.

This is another stupid question. If you don't like yellow, then what should it be? It's clear to me the significance of the yellow is to distinguish the Russian bonuses from the German bonuses. Green and black are the color scheme selected for the German forces, therefore the color of the German bonuses is green. Yellow and red are the color scheme for the Russian forces, therefore the color of the Russian bonuses is yellow (it obviously can't be red because it would be indistinguishable from the red background -- the legend is placed in Russian territory). So we must wait for the answer to this important question before the map can be approved?

3. The army shadows: yes they do disappear in von Rundstedt Army, I know that you can still see the amount of armies but in von Rundstedt Army it appears there is no shadow at all. do you see this ? yes or no.

If you can see the number of armies then this is an improvement over the classic map on which they are hard to see. In a real game there will be numbers in those circles, you will be able to see the number of armies, it will be obvious that they represent the number of armies in that country. We must wait for the answer to this important question before the map can be approved?

4. It was mentioned some time ago (by I can't remember who) that the legend shadows could possibly be changed. I don't mind the legend staying as it is, but I would like to see the helmets and star given a shadow as well to lift them off the board like the rest of the legend: would this improve the look of the map ? yes or no.

No it wouldn't. The important thing about the bonuses is the number of armies. The helmets and stars are merely decoration and don't need to be highlighted with the shadow. It's a matter of great understatement to say that this is another absolutely trivial question. The map is being held up because of this?

5. Lastly, is there any signifcance to the pictures and foreign text underneath your name on the map? I'm curious to what they mean/represent. Please answer.

If I were qwert I have a pretty good idea of what I would have put there and it's not something I would want to repeat in English in this forum or someone would surely suggest moving this thread to the flame wars forum. Do any of these questions strike any rational being as having any importance whatsoever?

This is not intended to have a go at you Quert, I am simply looking for a way to bring this to an end and to get your map into use.

ps I have directly quoted some of keyogi's previous post simply because it was easier than typing it all in again.

Isn't it clear that these "concerns" exist merely to have qwert grovel at the feet of the mighty map foundry grandees. There's not a legitimate question in the bunch. It's simply bureaucracy run amok. If these are the "issues" preventing the map from being approved, then all I have to say to the map foundry is "swallow your pride, admit you were being petty and vindictive, approve the map as is, and nominate qwert for sainthood forthwith for putting up with all this nonsense."

[jiminski]

Very good post Tahiti! So what now?

[WidowMakers]

First off I would like to say that your map Qwert, is really good. Th3e first time I saw it I was very pleased with the way things were going. Then after looking a little closer I realized there WERE several things that needed to be fixed.

The army circles were way off and the jagged edges of the territories look really bad. Based on what I have read, several people suggested that you fix them. You then had one of two options. 1) Listen to the suggestions and fix the map. 2) Ignore teh suggestion and go on for 113 pages of why the foundry has problems and is not fair.

Well I don't know about you (well actually I do. There are 113 pages on this topic. You chose #2) I would have fixed teh issues and moved on. I have made 3 maps for the site. And every map has had things about it that I would say were OK. The skull on the 8 Thoughts map. I made it and liked it. Then several others commented on how it look poor. Did I complain about how the foundry is not fair? Was I mad that someone did not like my map? NO! I FIXED IT!!!! That is it I fixed the issue that others brough to my attention. I have done that for every map I have made. And so have every other map maker. I don't know if there has ever been so much garbage thrown around over such stupid stuff.

Listen no one is saying you are a bad map maker. They are saying that you need ot make some more final small tweaks to the map. JUST DO IT!

Well if you are not I will. The first map you see it the one you had posted on the first page earlier this morning. It is gone for some reason.
The second map I made in 1 hour and 17 minutes. I fixed the army circles color and positon. I also touched up the borders. 1 hour and 17 minutes. I did not even have original file. Imagine what you could have done 2 months ago if you would have just listened and fixed these small issues.
Original

Widowmakers Touchups


I know this picture does not address all of the issues such as the sea text (I actually like that) and the word below your name (??) but it does show that the changes requested are not so insurmountable that you could never do them.

[tahitiwahini]

LOL, it's like night and day!

The first map is clearly unplayable, but the second map is pure genius.

OMG I've finally seen the light, how could I have been so stupid?!?

Here's a possibility: maybe the little tweaks that are "needed" are bullshit.

The people holding up the map don't give a crap about those stupid "tweaks" they just can't stand the fact that qwert has the intestinal fortitude, the cajones if you will, not to knuckle under to the ignorant suggestions and bogus questions and play the brown-nose game.

If you like your bowdlerized version of qwert's map so much put it to a vote. Here's the poll I propose:

Post a picture of the two maps. Which map do you like better?

1. I like the first map better.

2. I like the second map better.

3. Dude, what the hell? You've posted the same image twice.

It must really gall people that qwert won't kow-tow to these complete bullshit "suggestions." I guess if you can't produce something great at least you'll have the solace of stopping something great from being produced.

I could take every single map in CC and without breaking a sweat produce a page of things that I don't like about it. But that would be asinine and people would be entirely justified in telling me to piss into the wind.

If this is the way CC treats it's mapmakers then I think it's got some serious problems. Instead of being grateful that someone has devoted the time qwert has to creating a map which he intends to give to the site, he's treated like a pariah. Why he would continue to put up with this charade is something I'm sure I don't understand.

[Beastly]

Wow what a nice change!


The map is very improved! I think the map foundry Guys, really knew what they were talking about, and they were right.

Good JOB Foundry Mods. and nice work Widowmaker!!

Fix that map Qwert so we can play it!

[mibi]

LOL, it's like night and day!

The first map is clearly unplayable, but the second map is pure genius.

OMG I've finally seen the light, how could I have been so stupid?!?

Here's a possibility: maybe the little tweaks that are "needed" are bullshit.

The people holding up the map don't give a crap about those stupid "tweaks" they just can't stand the fact that qwert has the intestinal fortitude, the cajones if you will, not to knuckle under to the ignorant suggestions and bogus questions and play the brown-nose game.

If you like your bowdlerized version of qwert's map so much put it to a vote. Here's the poll I propose:

Post a picture of the two maps. Which map do you like better?

1. I like the first map better.

2. I like the second map better.

3. Dude, what the hell? You've posted the same image twice.

It must really gall people that qwert won't kow-tow to these complete bullshit "suggestions." I guess if you can't produce something great at least you'll have the solace of stopping something great from being produced.

I could take every single map in CC and without breaking a sweat produce a page of things that I don't like about it. But that would be asinine and people would be entirely justified in telling me to piss into the wind.

If this is the way CC treats it's mapmakers then I think it's got some serious problems. Instead of being grateful that someone has devoted the time qwert has to creating a map which he intends to give to the site, he's treated like a pariah. Why he would continue to put up with this charade is something I'm sure I don't understand.

Your sarcasm is only matched by your ignorance. You said you never visit the foundry much, please, let's keep it that way.

[podge]

I might also add Tahit that it is your insufferable arrogance that is helping to delay the launch of this map.

[helmut]

LOL, it's like night and day!

The first map is clearly unplayable, but the second map is pure genius.

OMG I've finally seen the light, how could I have been so stupid?!?

Here's a possibility: maybe the little tweaks that are "needed" are bullshit.

The people holding up the map don't give a crap about those stupid "tweaks" they just can't stand the fact that qwert has the intestinal fortitude, the cajones if you will, not to knuckle under to the ignorant suggestions and bogus questions and play the brown-nose game.

If you like your bowdlerized version of qwert's map so much put it to a vote. Here's the poll I propose:

Post a picture of the two maps. Which map do you like better?

1. I like the first map better.

2. I like the second map better.

3. Dude, what the hell? You've posted the same image twice.

It must really gall people that qwert won't kow-tow to these complete bullshit "suggestions." I guess if you can't produce something great at least you'll have the solace of stopping something great from being produced.

I could take every single map in CC and without breaking a sweat produce a page of things that I don't like about it. But that would be asinine and people would be entirely justified in telling me to piss into the wind.

If this is the way CC treats it's mapmakers then I think it's got some serious problems. Instead of being grateful that someone has devoted the time qwert has to creating a map which he intends to give to the site, he's treated like a pariah. Why he would continue to put up with this charade is something I'm sure I don't understand.

[alster]

Your sarcasm is only matched by your ignorance. You said you never visit the foundry much, please, let's keep it that way.

You're an annoying little man, aren't you? But yes, you have a point. Why would anyone not being a brother or sister of that Foundry forum have any opinions? That's just rude.


For the record no. 1: I concur with tahitiwahini’s latest posts.

For the record no. 2: I vote on option no. 3.

However, the maps posted by WidowMakers are somewhat different. Different shades of light I guess. However, I couldn’t care less. Both maps are playable. If for nothing else, (i) WidowMakers showed how ridiculous this issue is (and why the map maker must have some margin of appreciation), and (ii) WidowMakers committed an infringement of the map maker’s IP-rights.

[WidowMakers]

LOL, it's like night and day!

The first map is clearly unplayable, but the second map is pure genius.

OMG I've finally seen the light, how could I have been so stupid?!?

Here's a possibility: maybe the little tweaks that are "needed" are bullshit.

The people holding up the map don't give a crap about those stupid "tweaks" they just can't stand the fact that qwert has the intestinal fortitude, the cajones if you will, not to knuckle under to the ignorant suggestions and bogus questions and play the brown-nose game.

The people holding the map up do give a crap. There have been many times other map makers have been requested to fix things. Did you notice I did not change any of teh suggestions that were put forth. The sea text, the colors, the naming and font. ALL THE SAME. These are not requirements from the foundry. They were suggestions. You may not think that anything is wrong with the first map, bu you are wrong. Considering what other cartographers go through these days, the borders are to jagged and the army circles are not centered and need to be adjusted for color and clarity.

However, the maps posted by WidowMakers are somewhat different. Different shades of light I guess. However, I couldn’t care less. Both maps are playable. If for nothing else, (i) WidowMakers showed how ridiculous this issue is (and why the map maker must have some margin of appreciation),

First of all, I did not do this to show how I could make the map completely different. I did it to show how easy it would be for qwert to fix some of the issues that have come up. The army circles look better and they are centered more in each territory. The borders are also less jagged. Like I said earlier, 1 hour and 17 minutes. why does qwert not just fix his stuff like everyone else. to give you an example. teh great lakes was in final forge and Andy and Keyogi would not Quench because I have 1 army circle 1 pixel to high. I fixed it in 15 minutes and that was it. It is now done.

and (ii) WidowMakers committed an infringement of the map maker’s IP-rights.

secondly, I don't really know what this means. IP-rights? A copyright infringement? No where did I ever say "HEY LOOK AT THIS MAP I MADE ALL BY MYSELF".
There have been several occasions where other people have taken a map from a post and adjusted it to try and help out the map maker. All I did was visually make my recommendations. It is no different that someone else saying "Hey make the army shadows more centered and easier to see". I just did it with a picture. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. So instead of writing about fixing this and adjusting that I made a picture of my thoughts. Just fix the issues and be done.

[Molacole]

the truth is qwert comes right out of the gate with good looking maps. For the most part they're solid with maybe the exception of his bonus selection. Problem is he gets frustrated with the community and tends to lose patience with certain individuals who antigonize the shit out of him.

Gameplay/borders are always solid

Theme is always solid

His direction and focus is on point

he displays a solid image with a first draft every single time I've seen one of his first drafts posted.

The kid has a ton of skills as a cartographer and I also want to add he's a LOT better than a few of those people crituquing him so severely.

the problems with all of his maps seems to be the unforgiving attitude towards him (and now has escilated into personal grudges) due to the language barrier of not fully understanding what people request of him. It seems for the most part that a few are quick to jump on him the second he misunderstands something and that ends up leading to him getting frustrated and saying f*ck it and the reason why he almost gave up on a great map like this.

Unfortunately some people lack enough compassion and common courtesy to explain it to him in a more precise manner. Qwert usually ends up getting annoyed/frustrated before he even knows exactly what they're trying to tell him.

So basically what happens in most of his map threads turn into an arguement about some stupid shit. Usually from one of these assholes who shouldn't even be posting in his thread because of the way they treat him and have continued to treat him for months now. I mean shit would you want to listen to suggestions from some cock sucker who takes pop shot smart ass remarks at you every chance he gets or the loser who bashes and or insults him every time he misunderstands a request?

So yeah qwert does tend to get a bit stubborn at times, but it's usually because the people who are requesting things or making lite of the issue are the same clowns treating him like shit...

If you want to take it a step further you can compare the current state of his map with other maps in the foundry that are in final forge state while qwert has no realistic chance of getting into final forge until he fixes every single problem keyogi has listed and by that time it should be ready for quench which just doesn't make sense. If he fixed everything Keyogi wants him to fix right now to Keyogi's standards then there would basically be nothing left for anyone to talk about because everything else has been discussed with most topics being discussed numerous times.

Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I honestly think this map should've been in final forge before the borders became an issue because everyone keeps saying all Keyogi wants you to do is fix minor things which is exactly what the final forge process has been for from what I've seen.