Whodunnit? [19 Apr 2014] v10, p10 - Gameplay

[degaston]

I actually think the neutrals are set pretty low right now, and if anything, I'm concerned that the objective may be too easy to get.

Right now, why would anyone go for it.
The winning condition is made up of:
Suspect = 3 neutrals
Weapon = 5 neutrals
Detective = 6 neutrals
"?" I assume is the room icon (not noted anywhere on the map and needs to be) = what ever is on there
notepad = 23 neutrals
A total of 37 neutrals, and that is if you hold all of the correct info on the board.

So why would anyone want to waste troops trying to grab and hold all of that in any game when they can go for the elimination...

I think people will go for it because if you don't, your opponent will, and they will win. I don't understand why you think this has too many neutrals, when Rourke's Drift has an objective that requires you to kill 47 neutrals. Does no one ever bother to go for the objective in that map?

In flat rate, nukes and no spoils games, you do not get the troop numbers you are hoping for to even go for the WC.

If they take every territory in the crime scene, each player in a 1v1 game could have 34 troops deployed each round. That is almost enough to take the objective by itself, which is why I suspect that, if anything, the neutrals are too low and/or the bonuses are too high. Progressing towards the objective also gives you extra troops, even if you don't control everything, so there's another reason to go for it.

To get the numbers of troops to go for the winning condition, you need to hold at least 4 rooms for bonuses at which point you are holding nearly half the board (if not half or more depending on the rooms) so why would any player want to deploy troops and attack all of those neutrals? Why would you?

Why do you think you need to hold four rooms? Every room has a link to a suspect and weapon, so you only need one room. As for why, if suspects and weapons auto-deployed 100 troops, would you think they were worth it? (I'll assume the answer is yes.) Obviously, 100 is too many, so that just makes it a question of what the appropriate auto-deploy is to make them attractive, but not dominant. I think the values I have are reasonable, but if play testing proves otherwise, I'll be happy to change them.

Also, the above requires you hold entire rooms as well. So not only do I need to gain all of the above neutrals, I have to fight for two rooms.

Is it four rooms or two rooms? I think you only need one room, and once you've taken the location on the notepad, and have at least one police station territory, you don't technically need to hold the room anymore.

You mention that you have auto deploys in the police station:
Suspects = 1
Weapons = 2
Detectives = 3
great for unlimited reinforcement games, but auto deploys are useless after that one setting. Considering you have a 15 neutral at the police car, the auto deploys do nothing to help you gain a stronger footing on the board. All that will happen is they will stay there and grow.

Even with the "no reinforcements" setting, these auto-deploys are anything but useless.

1. Each suspect and weapon can be assaulted from two different crime scene rooms, so once you take them, the auto-deploys help with defense.
2. The suspect auto-deploy can help you to take a detective, which leads to...
3. When you hold a detective, the suspects and weapons assault their matching entries on the notepad.
4. The Detective assaults "Book him!", and is bombarded by it as well.

So each of those territories has an important offensive and defensive role.

Get an xml made up and I will send the files for testing. But testing is not going to prove one way or another. That will come in beta.

I'm working on it.

[koontz1973]

Rourke's Drift has an objective that requires you to kill 47 neutrals.

Cannot compare the two as both are different maps. RD has 6 auto deploys of +1 which can be used to chieftains, you autos have not. RD autos are central to the action and can be used in the game at once, yours cannot. The officers bonus is not even an auto deploy.

Does no one ever bother to go for the objective in that map?

As for going for the winning condition, no, it is not gotten as often as I would like.

I think people will go for it because if you don't, your opponent will, and they will win.

You go for it and waste your troops then.

If they take every territory in the crime scene, each player in a 1v1 game could have 34 troops deployed each round. That is almost enough to take the objective by itself,

If that happens, you go for the WC, I attack you and knock all of your bonuses out. You then have no troops to counter me and I can go about the win easily.

Why do you think you need to hold four rooms? Every room has a link to a suspect and weapon, so you only need one room.

For the bonuses as I said. Without the bonuses on the map itself, you have no chance of defending yourself, inviting the elimination. Without the bonuses, you do not have the troops for the WC, you said yourself in a 1v1 game, holding all territs gives a player about 34 to deploy.

if suspects and weapons auto-deployed 100 troops, would you think they were worth it?

No, I would say turn it down as you go on to say.

I think the values I have are reasonable, but if play testing proves otherwise, I'll be happy to change them.

Testing is not for this and is not designed for this. Beta is and you will not get to beta till gameplay and graphics are stamped.

Is it four rooms or two rooms? I think you only need one room, and once you've taken the location on the notepad, and have at least one police station territory, you don't technically need to hold the room anymore.

This is correct, but one room only gives a max of 6 bonus. These two rooms are going to be the last taken as they are the largest. As for the weapon, no one will go for it straight away as the suspect allows a route for the detective also. These auto deploys are then left there for defence and to move about the police station. But once you have those 9 neutrals, you get a nice 4 auto deploy (1+3), but again you need to go through 14 neutrals to get to the weapons. Either that or you attack the weapon in your room and go through that way, meaning only 10 or 11 neutrals. But to do this you need your bonuses from the house to attack. The room with +6 bonus, that is 2 full rounds of troops. All of the above does not include the 23 from the note pad.

Is it four rooms or two rooms? I think you only need one room, and once you've taken the location on the notepad, and have at least one police station territory, you don't technically need to hold the room anymore.

Losing your only way to get troops to deploy, and fight of the elimination for not holding a house region.

Even with the "no reinforcements" setting, these auto-deploys are anything but useless.

[*]Each suspect and weapon can be assaulted from two different crime scene rooms, so once you take them, the auto-deploys help with defense.
[*]The suspect auto-deploy can help you to take a detective, which leads to...
[*]When you hold a detective, the suspects and weapons assault their matching entries on the notepad.
[*]The Detective assaults "Book him!", and is bombarded by it as well.

So each of those territories has an important offensive and defensive role.

This is all well and good, but the troops you get are not enough to take the neutrals and defend at the same time. As said above.

I'm working on it.

[degaston]

Version 7
Large and small maps, suitable for play testing.

Large (930x960)

Click image to enlarge.

Small (775x800)

Click image to enlarge.

A few minor changes:

• Changed paths in Police Station to make it less cluttered.
• Added arrow away from Squad Car to indicate connections to Crime Scene
• Squad Car now is Killer 5, but connects through Guard.

[degaston]

Just to try to narrow the focus the discussion a little, are your comments mainly from the viewpoint of a 1v1 game, or do you also think that there would be game-play problems in a multi-player game?

Rourke's Drift has an objective that requires you to kill 47 neutrals.

Cannot compare the two as both are different maps. RD has 6 auto deploys of +1 which can be used to chieftains, you autos have not. RD autos are central to the action and can be used in the game at once, yours cannot. The officers bonus is not even an auto deploy.

My point was that I don't think that there are too many neutrals, considering that several other maps, including one of yours, have more.

Does no one ever bother to go for the objective in that map?

As for going for the winning condition, no, it is not gotten as often as I would like.

I suspect that for many WC maps when played 1v1, it may often just be easier to just eliminate a single opponent than to take the objective. I still don't see this as a reason to change the neutrals, because it was not my goal to create a 1v1 map.

I think people will go for it because if you don't, your opponent will, and they will win.

You go for it and waste your troops then.

If they take every territory in the crime scene, each player in a 1v1 game could have 34 troops deployed each round. That is almost enough to take the objective by itself,

If that happens, you go for the WC, I attack you and knock all of your bonuses out. You then have no troops to counter me and I can go about the win easily.

Why do you think you need to hold four rooms? Every room has a link to a suspect and weapon, so you only need one room.

For the bonuses as I said. Without the bonuses on the map itself, you have no chance of defending yourself, inviting the elimination. Without the bonuses, you do not have the troops for the WC, you said yourself in a 1v1 game, holding all territs gives a player about 34 to deploy.

All of this is completely theoretical until it's possible to play a game. Obviously, you can't ignore what your opponent is doing and allow them to overrun your bonuses. Does that mean you will never have a few troops to spare to take a suspect or weapon? If this ever gets to beta, then everyone can play the way they like, and it will become apparent which strategies work, and which one's don't.

if suspects and weapons auto-deployed 100 troops, would you think they were worth it?

No, I would say turn it down as you go on to say.

I was saying that a 100 auto-deploy was ridiculously large, but that there should be some value that would make it a viable strategic option. You seem to be saying that no matter what the auto-deploy is you would not take it, even though on the very next turn you could charge back into the crime scene and destroy your opponent. Is that your position?

I think the values I have are reasonable, but if play testing proves otherwise, I'll be happy to change them.

Testing is not for this and is not designed for this. Beta is and you will not get to beta till gameplay and graphics are stamped.

This is not what I've been reading:

• Test mode, allowing for the first time maps to be play tested before release - BigWham http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=198130
• Instead, our vision of the maps production in the next future is a system where everyone is able to test the files and to find out what is the best choice to take without have to wait to have the final files. We want that the testing function becomes a whole with the map process. - thenobodies80 http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7&t=198334
• Now, all maps that have received the draft stamp can be tested while the map is going through the gameplay stage. At some point the CAs will ask you to test your map before to allow it advance to the next stage of production. This because it makes more sense to test if something is wrong than assume it and see what's happen after months. - thenobodies80 http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7&t=201210

Is it four rooms or two rooms? I think you only need one room, and once you've taken the location on the notepad, and have at least one police station territory, you don't technically need to hold the room anymore.

This is correct, but one room only gives a max of 6 bonus. These two rooms are going to be the last taken as they are the largest. As for the weapon, no one will go for it straight away as the suspect allows a route for the detective also. These auto deploys are then left there for defence and to move about the police station. But once you have those 9 neutrals, you get a nice 4 auto deploy (1+3), but again you need to go through 14 neutrals to get to the weapons. Either that or you attack the weapon in your room and go through that way, meaning only 10 or 11 neutrals. But to do this you need your bonuses from the house to attack. The room with +6 bonus, that is 2 full rounds of troops. All of the above does not include the 23 from the note pad.

Each weapon only has 5 neutrals on it, not 10 or 11. And you don't have to take "Book him!" to get a benefit from the notepad - you only have to kill 3 neutrals to get a +5 bonus (+1 for each suspect, weapon & location, +2 for the set). In general, I think you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about what other players will or won't do.

I made a spreadsheet to calculate how many troops you you get for each one you have to kill. For each room, I assumed that you already had one territory in the room, and the rest were 3's. For the detective, I assumed that you already had the suspect.

So the weapon is actually the "best bargain" on the map. (Not counting the notepad territories which would all be a 1 on this chart.) It may take a while for those troops to become useful, but they continue to grow stronger for as long as you hold the territory.

Is it four rooms or two rooms? I think you only need one room, and once you've taken the location on the notepad, and have at least one police station territory, you don't technically need to hold the room anymore.

Losing your only way to get troops to deploy, and fight of the elimination for not holding a house region.

How about in a foggy trench game? If you focus exclusively on the rooms, while your opponent advances toward the objective, all your extra troops may not help you.

Even with the "no reinforcements" setting, these auto-deploys are anything but useless.

• Each suspect and weapon can be assaulted from two different crime scene rooms, so once you take them, the auto-deploys help with defense.
• The suspect auto-deploy can help you to take a detective, which leads to...
• When you hold a detective, the suspects and weapons assault their matching entries on the notepad.
• The Detective assaults "Book him!", and is bombarded by it as well.

So each of those territories has an important offensive and defensive role.

This is all well and good, but the troops you get are not enough to take the neutrals and defend at the same time. As said above.

What is your justification for that statement? How many troops do I need in order to kill 3 neutrals?

Have you considered that the layout of this map gives a slight advantage to the defense? Except for the passages in the corners, the attacker must travel through the hallways before they can attack another room. They will lose a few troops in the process, and will lose more if they leave a stack in the hallway. My thinking is that this will slow down the play in the crime scene, and make the bonuses available in the police station and notepad more attractive. I can't guarantee that it will work this way, but I don't think you can guarantee that it won't.

I appreciate your taking the time to look at the map and make comments, but it would be more helpful if you proposed solutions. I felt that your suggestion to use trasformation to have the neutrals decay to 1 was overkill, and would do more harm than good. There are several other possibilities that I would be more willing to consider:

• Adjust the bonus and neutral values. One of the easiest ways to tweak the game-play.
• Change the suspect, weapon and detective to regular bonuses. This would make them more attractive, but I think it makes them too important, and reduces the strategic complexity of the game, which is not what I wanted to do.
• Allow the suspects and/or weapons to bombard their matching hand and looking glass territories in the crime scene. This would give them an additional use, and make them more attractive, but it may make them too powerful, and eliminates some of the "surprise factor" from a one-way attack in fog games.
• Make all of the police station hallways (except the guard) killer 1's. I am concerned that the territories at the end of each hallway could be at a disadvantage, because they can be blocked in, but that may just make things more interesting.
• Put 2's on all crime scene hallways, or make them killers. This would slow down offense in the crime scene, and make the police station and notepad more attractive.

[degaston]

Version 8
Large and small maps, suitable for play testing.

Large (930x960)

Click image to enlarge.

Small (775x800)

Click image to enlarge.

Changes:

• Removed path from Garage 5 to secret passage.
• Swapped symbols for Garage 2(Baseball Bat) and Garage 4(Chainsaw).
• Added specification for region bonus. 1 troop for every 4 territories, Min 3, Max 14

[degaston]

Also, here's the XML file:
https://googledrive.com/host/0B6Z2nAn_n ... nit-v8.xml

[degaston]

So... am I supposed to do something else here? I don't have any changes planned at the moment, I'm not aware of any unresolved issues, and the only recent feedback has been in the poll where people are selecting that they'd like to play it.

[MagnusGreeol]

- Looks like a lot of fun, this is My first look at this, Only two questions-> (1)- Where is the bathroom and (2)- Why isn't there any lady killers involved? How about add a bathroom,since that is usually where a killer goes to cut up a body with a.chainsaw , and have Ms.Pink and Mrs.White? But it does look like fun 4sure no doubt ") GL with this.

[degaston]

- Looks like a lot of fun, this is My first look at this, Only two questions-> (1)- Where is the bathroom and (2)- Why isn't there any lady killers involved? How about add a bathroom,since that is usually where a killer goes to cut up a body with a.chainsaw , and have Ms.Pink and Mrs.White? But it does look like fun 4sure no doubt ") GL with this.

Thanks for the response. I don't think I have enough room to add a bathroom, but I could change the office into one.
The names (Mr. Pink, etc.) came from Reservoir Dogs, but I could change some of them into women.

Neither one of these would affect the gameplay, so I'll probably wait until there's something more significant to change before I make an update. Especially since I can't tell if the CA's have abandoned this map - It's been over a month since I posted my last update and XML file, and I've seen no response to those.

[koontz1973]

degaston, send all files to thenobodies80 via PM asking him to upload them to the beta site. Also, get yourself permission for the beta site so you can test the map out.

So... am I supposed to do something else here? I don't have any changes planned at the moment, I'm not aware of any unresolved issues,

We have the unresolved issue over the neutrals and transformations. I posted about the transformations a while ago and you have not given any reason why these should not be part of the map. Apart form that, most things look OK but we need to play the map first before progressing further.

[degaston]

degaston, send all files to thenobodies80 via PM asking him to upload them to the beta site. Also, get yourself permission for the beta site so you can test the map out.

So... am I supposed to do something else here? I don't have any changes planned at the moment, I'm not aware of any unresolved issues,

We have the unresolved issue over the neutrals and transformations. I posted about the transformations a while ago and you have not given any reason why these should not be part of the map. Apart form that, most things look OK but we need to play the map first before progressing further.

Thanks, I sent him links to the files.

I was trying to have a discussion about the neutrals, and I had several questions for you in my last post about it that you never responded to, so I didn't know that the issue was unresolved. If you don't think my reasons are valid, we can discuss them, but for you to say that I have not given any reasons only seems to indicate that you are not reading my posts.

Here's a summary of all of the reasons I have given for not adding transformations to reduce the police station neutrals without first determining that it is necessary:

1. The number of bonus troops available in the police station and notepad is quite high compared to the number of neutrals you have to kill to get to them.
2. The police station contains the highest value targets on the map considering the "bonus per neutral killed" value.
3. There are many good maps in which a large numbers of neutrals must be killed. Mine are not excessive compared to those maps.
4. The neutrals lead to a win condition, so it should not be too easy to get there.
5. You don't have to hold large continents to get the police station bonuses, so there is an immediate benefit to taking them.
6. Hallways give a slight defensive advantage to holding a room (opponents must fight to travel through them, and lose troops if they leave them in the hall), so it should not be hard to use a few extra troops to enter the police station.
7. The auto-deploy locations have both offensive and defensive uses, so even with the no-reinforcements setting, they are not useless. (Or at least no different than any other map with auto-deploys and the no reinforcements setting)
8. One alternative could be to modify the bonus structure to make it more advantageous to enter the police station.
9. Even if the police station is not often used in a 1v1 game (though I don't think that's been established yet), that is not a reason to change the neutral structure. I did not design this as a 1v1 map, and the polymorphic option is available for a two player game.
10. Management's vision for map production is "a system where everyone is able to test the files and to find out what is the best choice to take without have to wait to have the final files.", so there is no need for this to be resolved without testing it.

Additionally, I have several issues with the transformation feature that are still unresolved. I asked some questions in this thread:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... s#p4398993 that were never answered. I don't think that the specifications for the feature are entirely consistent or logical, or at least, the documentation leaves much to be desired. I don't really see any logical justification for adding them to this map, and I think it would add needless complication to an already complicated map. How does this fit with the theme of the map? Where would I fit the explanation for it on the legend?

I'm perfectly willing to discuss this further, and as I've said before, if something does not work when the map is actually played, then I'll be happy to make changes. But at this point, I've given many reasons why I don't think it's necessary to use transformations, and we may have to agree to disagree until there's some evidence that it does not work as is.

[iAmCaffeine]

I really like the look of this. The major thing that irks me is how bold the yellow floor is; can it be paler?

[degaston]

I really like the look of this. The major thing that irks me is how bold the yellow floor is; can it be paler?

I can adjust it at the next update, though I think I already toned it down from the inspiration:

[iAmCaffeine]

It is definitely toned down, but I think the map will be easier to read if you do it a bit more. Something like #f3ee5d.

[degaston]

It is definitely toned down, but I think the map will be easier to read if you do it a bit more. Something like #f3ee5d.

That color is fine with me. I'll make the change with my next update.

[thenobodies80]

Played just 2 games against a bot just to check the files...on the first look there could be space for small improvements (i.e. I will leave a real feedback only after that I played the map against humans) but let me say....I like it!
It's a nice map, funny to play. Something different imo.

Nobodies

[degaston]

Version 9
Large (930x960)

Click image to enlarge.

Small (775x800)

Click image to enlarge.

Major changes to the bonus structure. Detectives no longer have an auto-deploy, but will increase the bonus for any rooms that are held. The intention is to create a balance so that the largest bonus is achieved by taking a combination of rooms and detectives. Weapon auto-deploy increased to 3 to make it a little more important. Also specified a losing condition if you are eliminated from the crime scene and police station.

To Do:
Lighten the crime scene hallway.
Change some of the suspects to women?
Change the neutral values on the notepad?

[degaston]

Another minor update.

Standard reinforcements seemed to start too high, and grew too quickly, so I changed the structure to a 6:1 ratio with a range from 3 - 12 bonus troops.

Version 10 (4/18/2014)
Large (930x960)

Click image to enlarge.

Small (775x800)

Click image to enlarge.

[neanderpaul14]

LOL........Mr. Pink "Why the f*ck do I gotta be Mr. Pink?........"

[degaston]

LOL........Mr. Pink "Why the f*ck do I gotta be Mr. Pink?........"

Congratulations! I started this 3 years ago and you're the first person to indicate that they got the reference. Wish I had a prize to give you.

[Rih0]

so, i did this post without seeing your map: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7&t=206145, although i had a completely different idea, but it might be helpful to consider, that geting spoils as clues instead of getting a notepad of clues might relief your map from unnescessary territories and also make more sense cause at the current gameplay spoils would give some "extra-mobility" to the detectives and thinking of them as humans, it seems ilogic(in my opinion), unless you got zombie/nuclear.

[degaston]

so, i did this post without seeing your map: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7&t=206145, although i had a completely different idea, but it might be helpful to consider, that geting spoils as clues instead of getting a notepad of clues might relief your map from unnescessary territories and also make more sense cause at the current gameplay spoils would give some "extra-mobility" to the detectives and thinking of them as humans, it seems ilogic(in my opinion), unless you got zombie/nuclear.

There might be some interesting possibilities with this, but I doubt that it would ever happen. I've made a few suggestions of my own and discussed some others that I thought were good, but nothing has happened with any of them, so I'm not going to try that again. For this map, I was still hoping that they would allow killer neutrals to be a part of a continent bonus, but it doesn't seem like even something as simple & logical as that is going to happen. I've been busy with little league lately, so I'll get back to this map when I can find some time to think about it.

[iancanton]

i've rarely seen such a well-developed original concept that has a real chance of making it to the finish line. this map deserves to succeed.

having said that, there are a few changes that i believe will improve most games by increasing the likelihood that the police station and notepad are used.

it's obvious that the bedroom is the easiest bonus and we therefore have to prevent this from becoming an automatic choice in each game. i propose that the basic bonus for the bedroom is reduced to 0, so that the main function of holding the bedroom is to access the police station, while the kitchen and game room are increased to +3 and +4 respectively, with the dining and living room bonuses being swapped with each other. the thrust of these changes reflects the lengthier task of securing a corner room, each of which has a secret passage.

the notepad bonus of +1 for each suspect, weapon or location is fine, though i favour a sizeable +6 extra bonus (making +9), rather than only +2, for any one set. i want to see the notepad being used in most games and share koontz's concern that the objective will be ignored the vast majority of the time. any one set is logical and within the spirit of the board game.

the wording of the conditional attacks is unclear: is control of any room or any detective needed, or only a matching one?

highlight each of the exterior hallway doors, to emphasise that these are entry points from the squad car.

the basic deployment of 1 for every 6 regions is good. remove the upper limit of 12, since it serves little purpose and adds an unnecessary complication.

ian.

[degaston]

Thanks for the comments, iancanton.

...having said that, there are a few changes that i believe will improve most games by increasing the likelihood that the police station and notepad are used.

I've been testing the map by playing some games against the bots. It doesn't reveal a whole lot about the best strategy because the bots cheat (conditional borders are always open to them), but so far it seems that it's much faster and easier to win by going into the police station and notebook than to try to defeat your opponents solely in the mansion. My goal was to structure it so that a balanced approach is best. Control of one room is required to get to the police station, and once you have a room, it is more beneficial to take suspects, weapons, detectives and notepad spots than to go for another room right away. Once you do control a detective, It becomes more beneficial to take another room than to go for another detective. I think this works pretty well, but more game testing is needed.

it's obvious that the bedroom is the easiest bonus and we therefore have to prevent this from becoming an automatic choice in each game. i propose that the basic bonus for the bedroom is reduced to 0, so that the main function of holding the bedroom is to access the police station, while the kitchen and game room are increased to +3 and +4 respectively, with the dining and living room bonuses being swapped with each other. the thrust of these changes reflects the lengthier task of securing a corner room, each of which has a secret passage.

I don't want to say that the bonuses are perfect and I won't change them, but I did put a lot of thought into their structure, and I haven't noticed any problems in the games I've played so far. At the bottom of this post I made a table of the value of each room, comparing the bonus of the continent to the number of initial troops you would have to kill to take it. The kitchen and game room already provide the best value, so I don't think it should be necessary to increase their bonuses, and the bedroom is the worst value, so I think reducing it to 0 would be excessive. Also, the living room is already a better value than the dining room, so I don't think their bonuses need to be swapped to make them more unbalanced. And while the secret passages may make the corner rooms more risky to go for, if you can gain control of opposite corners, then you get both bonuses while reducing the number of doors you must protect, so that increases their potential value in the long run.

the notepad bonus of +1 for each suspect, weapon or location is fine, though i favour a sizeable +6 extra bonus (making +9), rather than only +2, for any one set. i want to see the notepad being used in most games and share koontz's concern that the objective will be ignored the vast majority of the time. any one set is logical and within the spirit of the board game.

I agree that having one big bonus for a single notepad set is more in the spirit of the board game, but for the game-play of this map, I think it works better to give out the notepad bonuses in smaller increments. Giving out such a large bonus for one set might make it a game winner by itself, and require opponents to break it or lose. With smaller bonuses, opponents may be able to coexist with each one having a set. I still stand by my earlier discussion with Koontz, that if one player goes for the police station and notepad territories and the other one doesn't, the first one is more likely to win. Of course this does not mean ignoring what is going on in the mansion - I think a balanced approach will work best.

the wording of the conditional attacks is unclear: is control of any room or any detective needed, or only a matching one?

Controlling a room unlocks the hand->suspect and looking glass->weapon links in that room. Controlling a detective unlocks the links from any suspect, weapon or '?' that you control to the matching entry on the notepad. I'll try to make that more clear. If you have any wording suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

highlight each of the exterior hallway doors, to emphasise that these are entry points from the squad car.

I'll try to come up with something.

the basic deployment of 1 for every 6 regions is good. remove the upper limit of 12, since it serves little purpose and adds an unnecessary complication.

I can do that.

[iancanton]

At the bottom of this post I made a table of the value of each room, comparing the bonus of the continent to the number of initial troops you would have to kill to take it. The kitchen and game room already provide the best value, so I don't think it should be necessary to increase their bonuses, and the bedroom is the worst value, so I think reducing it to 0 would be excessive.

i have indeed seen that table, which is a useful aid. what i am saying is that the reward gradient is too shallow, so players will, other things being equal, usually gain most by choosing the easiest bonus. after all, by completing a bonus early, u can gain a persistent edge of 1 or 2 extra troops each round that can prevent an opponent from realising a theoretically more valuable bonus. by increasing the reward for the more difficult bonuses, players will be forced more often to delay the usual no-brainer of completing an easy bonus, to attack an opponent instead.

Also, the living room is already a better value than the dining room, so I don't think their bonuses need to be swapped to make them more unbalanced. And while the secret passages may make the corner rooms more risky to go for, if you can gain control of opposite corners, then you get both bonuses while reducing the number of doors you must protect, so that increases their potential value in the long run.

although i tend to disagree with the first point, while the second, which is somewhat true, depends on either being able to gain both bonuses or use troops to blockade a passage, i am willing to concede the benefit of the doubt here.

I still stand by my earlier discussion with Koontz, that if one player goes for the police station and notepad territories and the other one doesn't, the first one is more likely to win. Of course this does not mean ignoring what is going on in the mansion - I think a balanced approach will work best.

as long as balanced does not mean bedroom to police station is the main focus in every game!

the wording of the conditional attacks is unclear: is control of any room or any detective needed, or only a matching one?

Controlling a room unlocks the hand->suspect and looking glass->weapon links in that room. Controlling a detective unlocks the links from any suspect, weapon or '?' that you control to the matching entry on the notepad. I'll try to make that more clear. If you have any wording suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

matching room and any detective?

ian.