Adjustments to league format for CL6?

[Dako]

Well said. Previous seasons were easier without so many rules and planning involved and they were more captivating.

[uckuki]

I'm here just to rattle the ship a little, raise room temp.

I have enough of numbers, stats, etc, at work. If I had to do it here all over again
it would be like a second job. too much hassle.
I realize that for every suggestion or idea there'll be bunch of pro and con people with
myraid agruments. my head would implode if I had to take in all that.

the thing is that playing PL is way cooler than playing 5th division north or something.
and not just for some clans, but for most of us. I really don't wanna play low division.
my question is: is it kosher to play qualifications, then skip on the league itself if my clan
doesn't place well? I honestly don't see a point in playing 3rd division. Foed won 4th
division 2 years ago and it was a joke for us, felt like a waste of time. relegation/promotion
system is the only way to make 3rd or 4th or whatever division worth playing. I see no other
motivation to do the thing.

[IcePack]

Those are some serious stats. But what if we make league mandatory? I mean every clan has to participate no matter what. It's almost the same for football, right?

And then you will not have so many new clans and dropouts. Plus make the season smaller, not one year but 6 months or so.

I don't think this is practical, it's still a "casual site". There are clans that have only one leader, if they are busy / RL there's no way they could participate. Other clans have planned breaks or just don't appreciate / have the same desire for leagues / events.
Even TOFU found itself unable to participate this last one all the way thru, and they are a clan many consider as a top level clan etc
Should it be mandatory for CD's to force clans to participate if they can't? What if clans refuse?

It's just impractical to force something like this.

[Vid_FISO]

So 46 clans eligible and 21 vote? Whatever the result of a minority vote it can in no way be considered representative.

No idea what goes on within CD&F, not about to question our rep on what he says or votes on as he has my complete trust, but when it comes down to any war or clan tourney it's those that actually run it on behalf of their respective clans that should be involved in discussions and votes.

If there is no change in format then I will not be running our side of it again, it's a complete waste of a lot of my time and chances are that no-one else within the clan will step forward to pick it up. It would be interesting to know how many others, those that would actually be giving up serious amounts of their time, have the opportunity to make their points anywhere and be listened to?

21 out of 46? That's quite pathetic really!

[Dako]

I don't think this is practical, it's still a "casual site". There are clans that have only one leader, if they are busy / RL there's no way they could participate. Other clans have planned breaks or just don't appreciate / have the same desire for leagues / events.
Even TOFU found itself unable to participate this last one all the way thru, and they are a clan many consider as a top level clan etc
Should it be mandatory for CD's to force clans to participate if they can't? What if clans refuse?

It's just impractical to force something like this.

We left the competition because we were allowed to. If there is a rule that you cannot quit then no one will. We'd endure the losses and burnout if such were the rules. But they weren't.

So 46 clans eligible and 21 vote? Whatever the result of a minority vote it can in no way be considered representative.

No idea what goes on within CD&F, not about to question our rep on what he says or votes on as he has my complete trust, but when it comes down to any war or clan tourney it's those that actually run it on behalf of their respective clans that should be involved in discussions and votes.

If there is no change in format then I will not be running our side of it again, it's a complete waste of a lot of my time and chances are that no-one else within the clan will step forward to pick it up. It would be interesting to know how many others, those that would actually be giving up serious amounts of their time, have the opportunity to make their points anywhere and be listened to?

21 out of 46? That's quite pathetic really!

Nothing happens in the CDF. Believe me, the group is almost dead. Group's most popular topic is Members List where people post when they change reps. There are 593 posts for the last 6 months, 400 of them are for CL5 and clan icons discussions. During the last 3 months there are less than 100 posts in total, and 40 of them belong to polls.

[IcePack]

We left the competition because we were allowed to. If there is a rule that you cannot quit then no one will. We'd endure the losses and burnout if such were the rules. But they weren't.

You think most clans would endure / enjoy something they weren't prepared for, or didn't have the time to organize yet were being forced to participate?
You might have been able to keep in but some clans with one leader who's busy / only has time for a regular war at a time, or none at all still isn't going to be able.

Again, what's the punishment for those who can't or refuse? I don't think mandatory events is practical.

[Keefie]

So 46 clans eligible and 21 vote? Whatever the result of a minority vote it can in no way be considered representative.

No idea what goes on within CD&F, not about to question our rep on what he says or votes on as he has my complete trust, but when it comes down to any war or clan tourney it's those that actually run it on behalf of their respective clans that should be involved in discussions and votes.

If there is no change in format then I will not be running our side of it again, it's a complete waste of a lot of my time and chances are that no-one else within the clan will step forward to pick it up. It would be interesting to know how many others, those that would actually be giving up serious amounts of their time, have the opportunity to make their points anywhere and be listened to?

21 out of 46? That's quite pathetic really!

If I recall correctly you stated in a previous post that the only changes you wanted for CL6 were an increase in map usage and more flexibilty regarding game labels. Well you will be able to use a map more than once and we will do our best regarding the second point.

[Dako]

You think most clans would endure / enjoy something they weren't prepared for, or didn't have the time to organize yet were being forced to participate?
You might have been able to keep in but some clans with one leader who's busy / only has time for a regular war at a time, or none at all still isn't going to be able.

Again, what's the punishment for those who can't or refuse? I don't think mandatory events is practical.

If we know beforehand you cannot drop out we'd enter with that thought and plan our resources. In the end we'd just forfeit games and lose a ton on F400.

Punishments are quite easy - skip next CCup and CL. We can also talk about F400 penalty (or score reset altogether but that will affect other clans greatly).

And why are you talking about punishments so early? Let's be positive here.

[IcePack]

You think most clans would endure / enjoy something they weren't prepared for, or didn't have the time to organize yet were being forced to participate?
You might have been able to keep in but some clans with one leader who's busy / only has time for a regular war at a time, or none at all still isn't going to be able.

Again, what's the punishment for those who can't or refuse? I don't think mandatory events is practical.

If we know beforehand you cannot drop out we'd enter with that thought and plan our resources. In the end we'd just forfeit games and lose a ton on F400.

Punishments are quite easy - skip next CCup and CL. We can also talk about F400 penalty (or score reset altogether but that will affect other clans greatly).

We are discussing making CL mandatory, but the punishment for skipping out / dropping out is missing the next one? I don't think that really gets more clans involved, and the punishment for refusing to join CL is missing out on...CL? that's not much punishment.
Again if it's mandatory, you wouldn't have the "choice" to enter and plan you're resources. Mandatory means you have to participate whether or not you have resources available.

[Dako]

Yeah, that was a bit daft on me :). It requires a bit more thought. Maybe something along the lines that clans are ranked based on CL results and skipping CL means getting out of ranks. But I wouldn't like being ranked on CL personally, CCup works way better for me.

Anyway, it's late here so I will leave this to you. Will be back tomorrow :).

[IcePack]

Yeah, that was a bit daft on me . It requires a bit more thought. Maybe something along the lines that clans are ranked based on CL results and skipping CL means getting out of ranks. But I wouldn't like being ranked on CL personally, CCup works way better for me.

Anyway, it's late here so I will leave this to you. Will be back tomorrow .

Yeah I understand the intent, I just think we're ansking is promo/ relegation practical? And this solution trades one "is it practical" for another. We are sure to discuss further.

[firstholliday]

BITE!!

[benga]

First of all I don't understand why is everybody talking about 3rd league?

18 clans for 1st league and the rest in 2nd league or something along those lines.

2ndly If we plan to have rel/promo in the future, it would be nice to announce that placement of this ones will be taken as seed for the next.

[Leehar]

First of all I don't understand why is everybody talking about 3rd league?

18 clans for 1st league and the rest in 2nd league or something along those lines.

2ndly If we plan to have rel/promo in the future, it would be nice to announce that placement of this ones will be taken as seed for the next.

We did consider that, maybe even a 20/20 split if we have the numbers for it, but then it doesn't really solve the question dualta was advocating in that you really have only 1 zone for the promotion/relegation criteria(maybe bottom 4 of premier, top 4 of 2nd league), and then falls flat in increasing competitiveness for the rest of the divisions?

I'm also hoping that this discourse continues to be held as a constructive debate rather than resulting in divisiveness that we sometimes do devolve into as part of the clan scene. There do remain some issues with any format, so hopefully we can keep in mind the goal is to have an all-inclusive competition for the entire clan scene rather than being centered too much on self-interest for what any clan would singularly prefer.

[Vid_FISO]

So 46 clans eligible and 21 vote? Whatever the result of a minority vote it can in no way be considered representative.

No idea what goes on within CD&F, not about to question our rep on what he says or votes on as he has my complete trust, but when it comes down to any war or clan tourney it's those that actually run it on behalf of their respective clans that should be involved in discussions and votes.

If there is no change in format then I will not be running our side of it again, it's a complete waste of a lot of my time and chances are that no-one else within the clan will step forward to pick it up. It would be interesting to know how many others, those that would actually be giving up serious amounts of their time, have the opportunity to make their points anywhere and be listened to?

21 out of 46? That's quite pathetic really!

If I recall correctly you stated in a previous post that the only changes you wanted for CL6 were an increase in map usage and more flexibilty regarding game labels. Well you will be able to use a map more than once and we will do our best regarding the second point.

Not 100% sure of exactly what I've said at any point but I do know that my main thought will always be that whether it be a war or a comp that any clan can use the maps and settings that they want to use rather than be forced into those that they don't. All wars I negotiate now permit us to do what we want within reason and also allow the opposition to do the same, if I don't like the terms then I withdraw from negotiations, if another member of the clan is prepared to take over the negotiations, compromise further and run it then fine, not my problem any more.

[Foxglove]

I honestly don't understand - what is the benefit of a promotion/relegation system, given that there is a fair amount of clan turnover (thanks for the stats, keefie)? Can someone please explain it to me?

Also, just my two cents on the possible mandatory participation for clans in the league: I think it's a terrible idea. Clans go dormant for periods, they take breaks, clan members take breaks, clans regroup, clans withdraw, etc. Committing season by season should be enough.

[uckuki]

there is another possible solution that completely solves the question of
promotion/relegation:

play qualifications for CL6 and have only 1 league, dunno how many clans, not too
many not too few I guess, and everyone else is out until next year?
scrap multiple divisions and have just 1 league. no one is really hell bent
on playing them anyway.
but, do it in a way that's fair to all: open draw, no seeding, so lower ranked clans
have a shot at making it.

[friendly1]

Or have the winners of premier, 1st and 2nd leagues square off in a playoff. 2nd league winner plays first league winner for right to challenge premier league winner for overall champion. Then any clan in any league has the possibility of playing for "the title"

[Armandolas]

I honestly don't see a point in playing 3rd division. Foed won 4th
division 2 years ago and it was a joke for us, felt like a waste of time.

Imo, this is one of the most important observations made until now.
I think this comp brainstrorming should start from here

Allow me to make comments on a few topics:
-1 map rule enforcement.Cant see any benefit here. It will just be a 2nd radom league after some point.
-Enforce participation to all clans is not a good idea. Clans should have free will. And if many of us "fight" for cds to have less control..then this would be outrageous.
-Relegation/promotion its the only way to do it ,if its decided to have more than 1 division.
-Bigger home sets (instead of 2-3-3 make it at least 3-4-3 or 4-4-4)
-Its a bad idea to have a league with many teams playing one round robin. After a while It will become very uninteresting to most of the teams. think maximum of 8/10 is what we can afford

Also allow me to suggest a different(i hope) format:
- x clans automatically qualified to 2nd stage through CL5 standings(ex: 1-3trd pr.league+1st 2nd league+1st 3rd league)
-Rest of the clans will have to go through a qualifying stage to reach stage 2(ex: x number of groups of 3/4/5 clans . 1st/2nd goes through
-x clans allready eliminated and x clans are now alltogether in the second phase. Small groups are made again to reach a final stage of 6/8 clans max

Edit: Ive made a simulation to better show what my idea is

Simulation:
-31 clans
-6 directly in Stage 2
-25 competing in Qual.Stage

Qualification Stage:
25 Clans
-5 groups of 5
-best 2 of each group qualify to Stage 2
-10 clans qualified / 15 clans eliminated

Stage 2:
16 clans
-4 groups of 4
-best 2 of each group qualify to final stage
-8 clans qualified ( 8 clans eliminated)

Final Stage:
8 clans
-1 group of 8
-6 best teams skip qualifying stage in CL7

[benga]

there is another possible solution that completely solves the question of
promotion/relegation:

play qualifications for CL6 and have only 1 league, dunno how many clans, not too
many not too few I guess, and everyone else is out until next year?
scrap multiple divisions and have just 1 league. no one is really hell bent
on playing them anyway.
but, do it in a way that's fair to all: open draw, no seeding, so lower ranked clans
have a shot at making it.

this could work, 3 groups for quali, top 4 advance

winning 2nd or lower league doesn't mean anything or you won to whole damn thing or you failed

winning 2nd league would make sense in promo/releg format

[Keefie]

There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.

[WPBRJ]

There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.

Is this still only about half of the competitive clans? I would bet a majority of those votes were upper clans and this is not a dig it's just seems like the upper clans care more about what happens.

[Doc_Brown]

There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.

Is it possible that the vote was against changes because no reasonable proposals were included as examples of major changes to be individually discussed, so no one really knew what changes they would have been voting to approve? If the poll question was simply, "Do you want to see major changes to CL6 as compared to CL5? No discussion is permitted in this thread." I would have been shocked to see an affirmative result. A far better poll question would have been:

The following are potential changes to CL6 that would be a significant change compared to CL5. Should these proposals receive further discussion and individual votes, or should CL6 remain very similar in structure to CL5?
Proposal 1: xxxxx
Proposal 2: xxxxx
etc...

[uckuki]

do we know who's in charge of CL6?

[IcePack]

do we know who's in charge of CL6?

Lindax.