Moderator: Community Team
lol, that's a pretty good summary!jbrettlip wrote:went back 2 pages of this and I am so glad I left this forum "debate". Same old shit. People for it think it will end in utopia for all, people against it can do math and understand economics. You won't convince the other side, and the supporters have more time than the opponents to discuss this due to not having jobs.
Quoting an opinion does not make it a more valid opinion. You referred to it, took "ownership". It is up to you to defend the words or not. I am conversing with you, not Himmelstein._sabotage_ wrote:Not as I claim, I quotes, as noted, Himmelstein.
mrswdk wrote:When GITIC ran out of money the Chinese government left it to collapse. When Western corporations run shitty, inefficient business models, their governments prop them up.
Who are the real socialists?
Obama kept delaying it, so we had to keep posting here.jimboston wrote:I'm not a fan... but this ship has sailed.

I'm forced to concur. The President is not doing a very good job making it look like this is over.Night Strike wrote:Obama kept delaying it, so we had to keep posting here.jimboston wrote:I'm not a fan... but this ship has sailed.
Medical care largely is, that is part of why we don't have a national healthcare system, or even really national insurance._sabotage_ wrote:I would eliminate federal funding and regulation and move it to the states.
Obamacare does some of this, but a lot was eliminated by the right wing... remember the whole "death panel" bit. That was actually a very NEEDED attempt to allow doctors to fully discuss end of life issues, and to beging looking at evidence and options so that people could have better advice at that difficult time... but instead of looking at the reality, the right just decided to twist it into a campaign point to our detriment. (and the left did not do much to fight effectively)_sabotage_ wrote:I would leave the federal government in charge of providing a platform for the assessment of healthcare in preventing future cost. I would immediately assess the areas we having been following behind in, especially in mental health.
This has nothing at all to do with Obamacare or medical insurance_sabotage_ wrote:I would also eliminate the federal student loan,
How do you expect this to work?_sabotage_ wrote:let medicine from the netherworld compete locally, create a use it or lose it patent policy,
So you think poor people and the disabled should just go without care? Or how do you propose their caer is paid for?_sabotage_ wrote:and get my hands off of medicare/caid.
You mean like residency programs already required?_sabotage_ wrote:On a state level I would provide medical students with an apprenticeship program to allow them to earn their position,
So you want the sales agents to be diagnosticians? That might work for a few very simple situations, though I have to say a lot of that is already covered by over-the-counter medicines,_sabotage_ wrote:make a first responder unit out of our pharmacies, which can offer quick diagnosis, point you in the right direction and sell you some medicine that requires prescriptions.
An interesting idea. Sounds similar to the limit to insurance profits already specified in the Obamacare law, but more specific. Details?_sabotage_ wrote:I would insist all pharmaceutical sales have 10% of sales directed to creating support groups, and providing them some funding for the sharing of information, mutual support and means of unified response. This would provide the sufferees a myriad of benefits.
How would this differ from the current situation? Or differ from what existed before the AFCA_sabotage_ wrote:My state would be enabled to service its own healthcare issues, which in turn can be weighed against the other states in competition and therefore there are few barriers to improvement.
Nice idea, but how would you accomplish this? See, many would argue that Obamacare was an attempt to head in this direction, imperfect, but headng closer than the previous system did._sabotage_ wrote:I would decrease the chance that a few monoliths grow so powerful that they defeat the system, while creating a means to guide funding, offer reward and focus on limiting the need to service the issues. It should significantly reduce cost while improving overall healthcare.
No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
I giggled.Metsfanmax wrote:No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.thegreekdog wrote:I giggled.Metsfanmax wrote:No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
I would say you're being accurate and have no problem with what you typed. I giggled because you offered no further comment. If we take the CBO statements as accurate (which, honestly, is the biggest problem with those statements - they probably are not accurate because they are predictions), that's pretty bad news.Metsfanmax wrote:I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.thegreekdog wrote:I giggled.Metsfanmax wrote:No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
No it's not.thegreekdog wrote:I would say you're being accurate and have no problem with what you typed. I giggled because you offered no further comment. If we take the CBO statements as accurate (which, honestly, is the biggest problem with those statements - they probably are not accurate because they are predictions), that's pretty bad news.Metsfanmax wrote:I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.thegreekdog wrote:I giggled.Metsfanmax wrote:No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
“The estimated reduction stems almost entirely from a net decline in the amount of labor that workers choose to supply, rather than from a net drop in businesses’ demand for labor, so it will appear almost entirely as a reduction in labor force participation and in hours worked relative to what would have occurred otherwise rather than as an increase in unemployment (that is, more workers seeking but not finding jobs) or underemployment (such as part-time workers who would prefer to work more hours per week).”
Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)
Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.
They wouldn't have to publish it that way if people would stop making outright false claims about CBO reports.thegreekdog wrote:Yeah, it's definitely bad.
Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)
Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.
EDIT - The more I think about the way the Washington Post has published this particular piece, the more outraged I become. This is why I stopped reading political crap. Thanks a lot Night Strike and Mets. Thanks a lot.
Here's my version of the timeline of events:Metsfanmax wrote:They wouldn't have to publish it that way if people would stop making outright false claims about CBO reports.thegreekdog wrote:Yeah, it's definitely bad.
Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)
Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.
EDIT - The more I think about the way the Washington Post has published this particular piece, the more outraged I become. This is why I stopped reading political crap. Thanks a lot Night Strike and Mets. Thanks a lot.
... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?thegreekdog wrote: - The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost
Consdering the number the CBO estimated originally is a third of their new estimate... yeah, I do. Sigh... there already appears to be a growing trend of people not saving money and now we have "hey, I'll work less because government." The end result is higher debt, higher taxes, or both.Metsfanmax wrote:... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?thegreekdog wrote: - The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost
As you pointed out, that's more likely to be due to the difficulty of making such projections than anything else.thegreekdog wrote:Consdering the number the CBO estimated originally is a third of their new estimate... yeah, I do.Metsfanmax wrote:... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?thegreekdog wrote: - The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost
Yeah, but presumably we get better healthcare as a result. That's something, right?Sigh... there already appears to be a growing trend of people not saving money and now we have "hey, I'll work less because government." The end result is higher debt, higher taxes, or both.
And what are you basing that presumption on? Projections that you acknowledge are difficult to make?Metsfanmax wrote:
Yeah, but presumably we get better healthcare as a result. That's something, right?