Mandela's dead

[BigBallinStalin]

Although people received 'full civil rights' (which is debatable given how the ANC inhibits political competition), it fails to offset the many negative consequences created by the ANC. The ANC should by no means be glorified.

The ANC should have imposed harsher punishments on the head bureaucrats and politicians of the Apartheid government, but Mandela was adamantly opposed to this. He was afraid that SAF would slip into something like the French Revolution's Robespierre and the Soviet Union post-WW1. So, it's difficult to know which would've been the best means for upholding justice, but they practically let them go (which was wrong; Mandel f'ed that one up), and obviously your suggestion of rendition and mass hangings would've yielded the greatest chances of destabilizing the democracy.

[patches70]

Things got bad for whom? The Blacks and mix races finally received full rights as citizens.

Well, let's see. If you are a South African woman, either black, mixed or white, chances are you'll be raped at least once before you get out of school. South Africa leads the world in rape per capita.
In samples of men interviewed in South Africa, 1 in 4 admits to have committed rape at least once.
Estimates range that 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once in their lifetime and only 1 in 9 rapes are reported.
Conversely, only 14% of those perpetrating these rapes are ever convicted.

Then there are the babies. I really don't even want to get into that, you just need to look into it yourself. There is a reason I call South Africa Baby rape capital of the world.

Then there is anyone who opposes the ANC. You need to simply google "political assassinations in South Africa" and you'll find a very long list. When you do, if you do, why don't you come back and tell us all how many political assassinations there were in South Africa just in 2013. But regardless, the list goes back pretty far and you'll find that the ANC is pretty darn ruthless to anyone who may oppose them politically.

Then there were the white farmers. While Mandela was assuring whites that they would not be targeted, that they were safe, white farmers were murdered horribly when the ANC took over. Despite Mandela's promises, white farms were seized and white farmers were murdered wholesale.

Then there are the South African miners. They get gunned down on a regular basis and live in abject poverty.

Then there are the young men who have no jobs and take to raping and committing crime. The crime one may not have much of a choice in, if your hungry you'll steal if you have to. I can't blame too much for that, but the rapes? There isn't any excuse for that.

Then there are the ANC politicians. They are corrupt, power mad and brutal. Black or white, doesn't matter, if you don't play ball with them then you become the ball. Oh, wait, the ANC benefits from the situation. Sorry 'bout that.

Are you just playing Devil's advocate or are you just ignorant?

I don't know, are you ignorant of how bad it got in South Africa after Apartheid? Did you think it was all roses and a brand new world where peace and justice reigned? It wasn't, not in the slightest. The atrocities that happened after Apartheid are just as bad as the atrocities that happened during Apartheid.
Does it make a difference who was being murdered and raped? That it's bad if one minority that's happening to but not another?
Does it make a difference which government is corrupt? If the Apartheid government is corrupt that's bad but if the ANC government is corrupt that's ok?




In the blind reverence to Mandela people forget that the post Apartheid government became the same as the pre Apartheid government.

And that's the legacy of Mandela, unfortunately.

I have to look at results as well as intentions. You are only looking at the intentions and ignoring the results. And you are calling me ignorant?
It's a great tragedy what happened to South Africa after Apartheid. Apartheid South Africa was disgusting. Post Apartheid South Africa was just as disgusting. There is very little difference between the two except who was swinging the whips.

[mrswdk]

Estimates range that 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once in their lifetime

The figures you cited for reports and prosecution are fairly standard, but this one is pretty D:

[BigBallinStalin]

Another fun note about the ANC according to Feinstein's After the Party:

How to become a governor of some district:

1. make friends to get on the list of potential candidates--formed by an elite ANC group,
2. get a large enough voter base in some district

Then, you'll become governor/head honcho over the district which you've won over, or some other district chosen by the elite ANC group. This system of government greatly incentivizes corruption and is an effective tool for shutting out competition from other political parties. I'm not sure if this practice is still used, but until 2006 or so, it definitely was.


According to the Polity IV Index, SAF is very much democratic with its +9 score (France has +9). During the pre-ANC days, SAF was +4 which was slightly worse than Pakistan 2011 and significantly better than S. Korea and Taiwan pre 1990s (with their 0 or 1).

I read their PDF, and 'democracy' largely means inclusion of citizens in voting, restraints on the exectutive, separation of exec. from the judicial, and executive recruitment. So, this should give us some pause from lambasting SAF as somewhat authoritarian--along the Polity IV variables for measuring 'democracy'.

[kuthoer]

Sounds like the system we have in America

[mrswdk]

Certain CC posters will also be reassured to see that SA is definitely not 'feminist' either.

[patches70]

When the ANC formed their military wing, (the MK) Mandela was the first leader of the MK. The MK carried out bombings of government and police of the South African government.
They also carried out a number of civilian bombings, such as-
-Amanzimtoti bombing- a shopping center in the town of Amanzmtoti. 5 killed, 40 wounded. Among the dead were three children ages 2, 5 and 8. The children were all white. (that makes it ok, right?)
-Sterland bomb- bomb at a movie theater in Pretoria, South Africa. Luckily, that bomb blew up early killing the bomber himself and injuring a bystander. It could have been a lot worse.
-The Church street bombing- A car bomb in front of a magistrates office. 19 people killed. 17 men, 2 women. 8 of them were blacks, 9 were whites. In Mandela's own book, the autobiography "Long Walk to Freedom" Mandela wrote that he personally signed off on that attack while he was in prison.
-the Magoo Bar bomb- A bomb planted by a police officer (Robert McBride) at a diner which killed 3 women and injured and almost 70 people injured. McBride was arrested, sentenced to death row and released by the ANC and granted amnesty by the Truth and Reconciliation commission. Though the Commission admitted that the bombing was a gross violation of human rights.
In other words, a terrorist bombing.

There are lots, lots more. One could google a list of bombings in South Africa and it's a hell of a list.
In fact, one could look back at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's own reports. Some 21,000 victims were interviewed by the TRC. 849 people responsible for bombings were given amnesty. Some 5,300 others crimes were so bad they were refused amnesty.
Mandela himself never appeared before the TRC.

And Mandela was the leader of the wing of the ANC which carried out all those bombings, hundreds of bombings. Even while in prison Mandela was still the MK's leader and was aware of and signed off on many of those operations.

Yeah, it's ok for someone to label Mandela as a terrorist. It's a fair label in all honesty.

[Phatscotty]

Ok well..there are few more embarrassing things in the closet for a Conservative politician than having once called Nelson Mandela a terrorist.

It was a phrase that muddied the legacy of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

In 2006, David Cameron apologised and denounced Thatcher's policies, saying she was wrong to have branded Mandela's African National Congress as 'terrorists' and to have opposed sanctions against the apartheid South Africa.

It was, embarrassingly, only in 2008, that Mandela was removed from the US terrorism watch list by President George W Bush.

So, it shows it's very easy these days to label someone as a terrorist. The sheeples will believe any propaganda as the government is never wrong and always tells the truth

Mandela fought for the freedom of his people against a cruel unjust system, a system which denied them basic human rights. He was prepared to accept the consequences revolutionaries often pay, imprisonment, torture and possible death at the hands of the oppressor.

He did not export or thrust his beliefs on the outside world. he stayed at home and righted a wrong.

the government tells the truth when people want to believe lies. I just got done with about 16 hours of documentaries on South Africa, Mandela, and the African National Congress., and I don't totally agree with your comments about Reagan and Thatcher. Yes the outlaying premise is easily believable, but there are a lot of reasons why people get labeled terrorists. I won't get into all that though unless you want to.

But I think giving Mandela all the credit is a huge mistake. Mandela wouldn't be Mandela if the president was not level headed and of a similar mind. It could have easily been a reality that someone like Mandela was simply beheaded.

Not to mention, I never understood why people think that a population should rise up and take over before they are even able to do so. My take has always been that a people do not get power or get representation until they stand up for it and earn it themselves. And that's what Mandela did, but the people were not exactly ready to make things better. I think it got worse. If all some care about is wealth equality, I can see how everything else gets overlooked.

[patches70]

Estimates range that 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once in their lifetime

The figures you cited for reports and prosecution are fairly standard, but this one is pretty D:

Oh, I'd rather people look up crime in South Africa on their own. Lot's of different sources, but it's all pretty bad, even the SA's own numbers. There is a UN report that claimed the estimate of 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once. So, <shrugs> who knows?

But South Africa certainly has some serious problems that weren't nearly as bad during Apartheid days. of course there are some things better post Apartheid I suppose. At least now everyone gets to vote who is going to be raping, robbing and murdering them.

All I see is atrocity during Apartheid and atrocity after Apartheid. I can't really decide which is worse and I'm glad me and mine don't have to live through it.

I really don't think Mandela intended it to get so bad, but it did and it still is. One should be at least mindful of such IMO. That's why I don't find it very offensive nor too far from the mark what was in the OP.

Mandela's dead. <shrugs> If there is an afterlife he'll have to make his own accounting and that's between him and God I suppose.
Agent 86 was the one who asked how you could make such statements as you did and I just simply tried to explain it to him is all. I probably shouldn't have bothered, it's not likely he'll take an objective view. He'll just buy into the cult of personality that was Mandela.

He was a mover and a shaker, I'll give Mandela that. It's just that I'm not too sure exactly how much good his moving and shaking did. It helped some people but at the detriment of other people. Something that happens I guess in the tangled web of politics and power mongering. The same old human condition we've been dealing with since the formation of tribes I suppose.
Meh.

[Phatscotty]

Estimates range that 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once in their lifetime

The figures you cited for reports and prosecution are fairly standard, but this one is pretty D:

Oh, I'd rather people look up crime in South Africa on their own. Lot's of different sources, but it's all pretty bad, even the SA's own numbers. There is a UN report that claimed the estimate of 50% of the women in South Africa will be raped at least once. So, <shrugs> who knows?

But South Africa certainly has some serious problems that weren't nearly as bad during Apartheid days. of course there are some things better post Apartheid I suppose. At least now everyone gets to vote who is going to be raping, robbing and murdering them.

All I see is atrocity during Apartheid and atrocity after Apartheid. I can't really decide which is worse and I'm glad me and mine don't have to live through it.

I really don't think Mandela intended it to get so bad, but it did and it still is. One should be at least mindful of such IMO. That's why I don't find it very offensive nor too far from the mark what was in the OP.

Mandela's dead. <shrugs> If there is an afterlife he'll have to make his own accounting and that's between him and God I suppose.
Agent 86 was the one who asked how you could make such statements as you did and I just simply tried to explain it to him is all. I probably shouldn't have bothered, it's not likely he'll take an objective view. He'll just buy into the cult of personality that was Mandela.

He was a mover and a shaker, I'll give Mandela that. It's just that I'm not too sure exactly how much good his moving and shaking did. It helped some people but at the detriment of other people. Something that happens I guess in the tangled web of politics and power mongering. The same old human condition we've been dealing with since the formation of tribes I suppose.
Meh.

and thousands were murdered by being beaten to death while they were set on fire.





Like I said earlier, oppression and apartheid can be judged as wrong, but that doesn't mean when the people overthrow it things will be better or the people are ready to rule themselves.

[BigBallinStalin]

Perhaps the main point from all of this is that terrorism is actually a good thing--if your goal is to establish a more democratic form of governance.

On a more serious note, people should readjust their stances on terrorism and violations of human rights. Another problem is that establishing democracy is still an act of establishing a coercive organization which monopolizes the use of force. Unless terrorism and other violations of human rights are explicitly supported, then the statists should dampen down their democratic cheerleading to realize what they actually support. Just sayin', the supporters should be logically consistent and aware.

[kuthoer]

The smell of racism bleeds thru this thread, disguised as so-called facts about how things were better for ordinary South Africans, before Apartheid was eliminated.

[thegreekdog]

The smell of racism bleeds thru this thread, disguised as so-called facts about how things were better for ordinary South Africans, before Apartheid was eliminated.

I think you missed the point of the commentary. Nelson Mandela was wildly celebrated by much, if not all, of the world. The folks in here are merely pointing out that perhaps he shouldn't be celebrated as much as he is.

[kuthoer]

Not to be celebrated as much? Sorry, but I must of missed your point. The banter going on here are talking points on right wing hate radio and internet sites. Mandela had become a peacemaker while serving an unjust life sentence in prison. He saved the WHITE minority from what happen in Rhodesia.

We all can point our crooked finger at all the crime that happen after the facts, such as rapes. I guess we can also ask all the American Armed Force's leaders to resign, since RAPES are rampant in our military. It's become sideshow here in these threads to blame Mandela for everything that's wrong with South Africa today.

[BigBallinStalin]

Quoting helps. I don't agree with all of patches points because some of the facts seem disputable.

Mentioning the difference in crime rates between pre- and post-apartheid SAF doesn't convey one's preferences for SAF's ideal government.

[patches70]

Never let a few facts get in the way of proper hero worship.

Someone is apparently a racist when they reply to the hero worship with- "Hey, wait a minute, Mandela was responsible for the murder of civilians (including women and children BTW) and I'm not too sure that's to be commended".

So let me mark it on my politically correct list, It's ok to kill women and children with car bombs and such so long as the cause is Just. And whatever happens after the cause is won doesn't matter at all.

The Ends justify the Means. Good to know.

And of course Mandela bears zero responsibility for the corruption of the political party he was the president of. He is in no way responsible for the exclusion, suppression and harassment of other political entities perpetrated by his own political party while he was President and after.
Ok, glad that's all straightened out.
For now on I'll worship the cult of personality without question because everyone says I have to. I guess I'll have to go out an buy a Che Guevara portrait to hang proudly in my living room.

[thegreekdog]

Not to be celebrated as much? Sorry, but I must of missed your point. The banter going on here are talking points on right wing hate radio and internet sites. Mandela had become a peacemaker while serving an unjust life sentence in prison. He saved the WHITE minority from what happen in Rhodesia.

It appears that you have some emotional attachment to Mandela such that any critique of him must be racially motivated (or otherwise wrong based on something other than on a factual basis).

We all can point our crooked finger at all the crime that happen after the facts, such as rapes. I guess we can also ask all the American Armed Force's leaders to resign, since RAPES are rampant in our military.

We can I guess, but my preference is to not put those American military leaders on pedestals as paragons of virtue. Rather, we should note that while their service had good points, it also had bad ones. I think that's what people are saying with Mandela.

It's become sideshow here in these threads to blame Mandela for everything that's wrong with South Africa today.

I don't think anyone is blaming Mandela for everything wrong with South Africa. I think people are saying, "he wasn't as awesome as you think he was" and you're equating that to "they must hate him because they are racist/crazy/right wingers" and that people are trying to make Mandela some sort of devil. The only person suggesting that is you.

There is a thread somewhere in this forum where someone criticizes Jefferson for raping a slave. Does that negate that Jefferson wrote some of the defining documents of the United States and that he was a founder of the US? Of course not, it just shows that he's not a perfect dude. Same with Mandela - he wasn't perfect and should perhaps not be placed on the high pedestal we have placed him on. It is facile to assume or believe that Mandela was a perfect leader.

[oVo]

Never let a few facts get in the way of proper hero worship.

The South African government with their apartheid policies killed more civilians including women and children in a single incident putting down a peaceful protest for citizen rights than all the bombings combined. It is one of the events that unified the world against the South African government. Global industries had tolerated the racist regime because they didn't want to disrupt the flow of raw materials out of Africa.

Mandela spent nearly three decades in prison and upon his release didn't seek revenge or retaliation against his captors and even incorporated members of that same regime in the post apartheid government.

Just because an oppressive government falls doesn't mean all the problems of a country will dry up and blow away. I'm not calling Mandela an angel, but I also cannot deny his impact on the World we live in and the sacrifices he made to accomplish this change.

Nelson Mandel was exactly as awesome as I think he is.

[patches70]

The South African government with their apartheid policies killed more civilians including women and children in a single incident putting down a peaceful protest for citizen rights than all the bombings combined. It is one of the events that unified the world against the South African government. Global industries had tolerated the racist regime because they didn't want to disrupt the flow of raw materials out of Africa.

And in response it's ok to use car bombs that kill civilians (who had nothing to do with the killings and atrocities from Apartheid, unless you somehow can blame mere children for such things)?

Ok then.

Mandela spent nearly three decades in prison and upon his release didn't seek revenge or retaliation against his captors and even incorporated members of that same regime in the post apartheid government.

Good point. Does that absolve Mandela of his actions that led to the deaths of innocent civilians that includes women and children?

Just because an oppressive government falls doesn't mean all the problems of a country will dry up and blow away.

True enough. It's not my fault though if you can't see how bad the ANC was and that it was just as brutal and ruthless as the government it replaced. Did Mandela mean for that to happen? I'd like to believe he didn't want that to happen.

I'm not calling Mandela an angel,

Nor am I.

but I also cannot deny his impact on the World we live in and the sacrifices he made to accomplish this change.

Nor am I. He was certainly a world changer.

Nelson Mandel was exactly as awesome as I think he is.

That's fine, you are entitled. But equally there are people who feel differently and those feelings are not without merit either. A thing that Agent 86 and kuthoer can't seem to accept.


The ANC military wing of which Mandela was the leader carried out 100's of bombing attacks that are obvious terrorist attacks. That they were motivated for the claimed goal of ending Apartheid ignores the evidence that they were just as motivated to gain power.
Mandela was the face of ANC and used that image to gain support and money for the cause. Support and money that went to terrorizing and killing of civilians.
That he gave up such things once Apartheid had ended and the ANC (and Mandela himself) had taken power, is admirable but also suspect.

Apartheid was despicable. The ANC is despicable. Mandela was in the ANC, a leader of the ANC and president of the ANC. How can none of that despicable nature get on Mandela's jacket at all?

You all have to understand that "Mandela" isn't just a person, he's a brand. And his brand is cultivated by glorified advertising agents. I think that's why some people react like kuthoer, because the Mandela brand has been so well sold that the man's earlier activities have been almost completely whitewashed. (No pun intended).

That's all I'm reminding them of, why it's absolutely legitimate for some to think Mandela was a terrorist. Mandela is dead, my condolences to his family, may he rest in peace. And at the same time it does no justice to forget those who were killed that were not guilty of anything at all, be that they were killed by Apartheid or Mandela's ANC.

[oVo]

You might find this 60 Minutes Tribute,
Nelson Mandela in his own words
to be more free world fluff.

[patches70]

Or perhaps you'd like to read about the in fighting over Mandela's brand now that he is gone.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/family-politic ... 44682.html


Take a look at this picture-



The guy sitting there with Mandela is Jacob Zuma. You may know of him, he's the current South African president. Mandela doesn't look all too happy there does he? LOL I don't blame him.

Anyway, this picture was taken after Zuma's rape trial, after his numerous corruption trials and at the time of this picture Zuma's approval ratings were in the tank (picture taken in April, 2013). Why do you think he's getting his picture with a sick old man like this? Mandela is clearly not too pleased.


In fact some were quick to criticize Zuma for this (rightfully) as taking advantage of a sick old man for political gain. Mandela's image sells and the ANC is keen to buy. ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu responded to the criticism that Mandela "belongs to the ANC first and then to the whole country".

Mandela's image buys votes for the ANC, as was their intention all along when the decision was made long ago that Mandela and his wife Winnie would be the face of the ANC.

Now that Mandela is dead there are plenty who are trying to get some of that "Mandela magic" as it's called.

I can't blame them really, after all, look at all the people who have bought the Mandela magic. <Shrugs> It's the world we live in I guess. You see, it's hard to separate Mandela from the ANC when the ANC owns him.....


I don't know which would be worse, that Mandela tried but failed to reign in the ANC or that Mandela was never in a position to influence the ANC at all and that he was merely a figurehead and nothing more.
The former I would give Mandela props for at least trying.
The latter, well, that's a different story.

Anyway, the disgusting nature of the ANC, for me, taints the memory of Mandela so as I'm not as influenced by the cult of personality created around the man. Apartheid was horrible, the ANC is just as horrible and Mandela is the face of the ANC. There is really no getting around it in my mind.

But to each their own I suppose.

[2dimes]

Zuma should have tickled him.

[patches70]

Zuma should have tickled him.

Heh heh, it might have gotten a smile out of Mandela at least.

Ironically, that was Zuma's defense in his rape trial, he was just tickling the woman.

[2dimes]

I wish I were single. I'd like to tickle women.

[Pedronicus]

95 year old man dies shocker