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_sabotage_ wrote:Currently being developed in China, India, Norway, Spain, Brazil and others, including the US (solely for military use), it would greatly reduce emissions. I believe it is that 1kg of thorium could supply the energy of 135,000,000 kg of coal.
Metsfanmax wrote:All I want is an additional tax to be levied on fossil fuels. This would ultimately be approximately a $2 tax per gallon on gasoline (compare to our current 50 cent net tax). No technology needs to be destroyed -- we just need to pay the correct price on carbon.
Night Strike wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:All I want is an additional tax to be levied on fossil fuels. This would ultimately be approximately a $2 tax per gallon on gasoline (compare to our current 50 cent net tax). No technology needs to be destroyed -- we just need to pay the correct price on carbon.
That's because carbon itself is "incorrect" to use in your opinion, which is why you'll use the government to get rid of it.
The only correct prices are what the market chooses to pay, not what the government artificially imposes on a product.
And your tax level will kill the economy. We saw how the economy slowed down when gas hit $3 per gallon and kept rising. Heck, according to Obama, our economy must currently be tanking because gas prices have been rapidly dropping.
Night Strike wrote:What's with this constant worship of 97% of articles that are reviewed by peers that believe the same thing and will crowd out other interpretations of the data?
Night Strike wrote:1) You're right, ALL pieces of technology throughout the world would have to be immediately shut down and no carbon dioxide can ever again be released from the ground in order to drop the world's temperature by less than 1 degree. That's clearly not worth the damage the lack of technology would cause to the world.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"

Night Strike wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:All I want is an additional tax to be levied on fossil fuels. This would ultimately be approximately a $2 tax per gallon on gasoline (compare to our current 50 cent net tax). No technology needs to be destroyed -- we just need to pay the correct price on carbon.
That's because carbon itself is "incorrect" to use in your opinion, which is why you'll use the government to get rid of it. The only correct prices are what the market chooses to pay, not what the government artificially imposes on a product. And your tax level will kill the economy. We saw how the economy slowed down when gas hit $3 per gallon and kept rising. Heck, according to Obama, our economy must currently be tanking because gas prices have been rapidly dropping.
Paddy The Cat wrote:I feel like most climatologists are biased; before they even publish their first paper they're passionate in their belief that humans have caused huge issues, i.e emission of CO2 by humans => global warming. They may or may not be correct, however I have seen that they tend to have smiliar opinions about such issues before even being able to comprehend evidence that may or may not support this belief. They begin learning as a biased individual, they are taught by biased individuals, they publish papers that are reviewed by biased individuals, and then send it out to the public. That shit doesn't fly in physics or math.
Of course, this is only what I've seen in my experience around climatologists. Nothing I say stands at too high a confidence interval, I am just stating what I suppose based on what I have observed.
Metsfanmax wrote:thegreekdog wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:The "free" market (as in, a completely unregulated market) cannot solve global warming because the free market does not have to pay for the damage it causes.
Hmm... that doesn't make any sense at all. The free market does, in fact, have to pay for the damage it causes. But I'd like to understand why you think the participants in a free market don't have to pay for damages they cause.
A number of reasons.
1) If you count up the total amount of economic damage that will be caused by global warming, a disproportionate amount is caused by people from the United States, India and China relative to the damage that they will suffer. Developing nations will suffer a much greater amount of damage but will have contributed basically nothing to the severity of global warming. You can be sure that Exxon Mobil is not going to compensate the people of the Maldives for the flooding of their island nation.
2) This also applies internally to developed nations as well. Certain sectors of the population are responsible for a very large share of greenhouse gas emissions, but they are doing damage to all of society. Society collectively will be forced to pay for the reparations of the damage.
3) The people who are doing the damage are not the ones who are paying for it, due to the delayed time-scale of the problem. The actual damage will fall mostly on the children and grandchildren of the current adult generation, yet they are not the ones who caused the problem.
4) What I really meant, though, is more fundamental than any of these. An economic externality is, by construction, a cost that is not factored into the price of a product on the free market. When the damage is done by global warming, the market is not what pays for reparations. Rather, a tax will be levied on residents of the various nations and the government will pay for it. This tax exists external to the market, which is why it is fair to say that the market is not paying for the damage.
thegreekdog wrote:I admittedly did not know that this is where you were going with your argument. My response to these (other than agreeing with BBS, who was relying upon the "government doesn't really care either and will be just as ineffective" argument, which doesn't really address your points, no offense BBS, and sorry for the long paranthetical) is as follows:*
(1) ExxonMobil should be considering the cost in future customers of their products when determining the value of continuing to cause environmental impacts.
(2) Not really a free market v. not free market thing (unless I'm missing it).
(3) The people doing the actual damage will pay for it indirectly through their children and grandchildren. Thus, they should take that cost into account.
(4) The cost should be factored into the price of the product on the market. Companies will lose the ability to do business, will lose customers and potential customers, and will generally have a bad time of it if climate change causes massive problems. Thus, those costs should be factored in.
Metsfanmax wrote:Paddy The Cat wrote:I feel like most climatologists are biased; before they even publish their first paper they're passionate in their belief that humans have caused huge issues, i.e emission of CO2 by humans => global warming. They may or may not be correct, however I have seen that they tend to have smiliar opinions about such issues before even being able to comprehend evidence that may or may not support this belief. They begin learning as a biased individual, they are taught by biased individuals, they publish papers that are reviewed by biased individuals, and then send it out to the public. That shit doesn't fly in physics or math.
Of course, this is only what I've seen in my experience around climatologists. Nothing I say stands at too high a confidence interval, I am just stating what I suppose based on what I have observed.
Really now? Do you know many starting graduate students in physics who have no opinion on the validity of general relativity or quantum mechanics? Or any starting graduate students in math that have no opinion on the validity of the fundamental theorem of calculus? Of course not, because the major question of the validity of the theory has already been settled by the scientists that came before. Even when revolutions happen in physics that overturn previously established ideas, they almost never radically change the basis of our entire understanding of the science. Einstein didn't throw out Newtonian gravity -- he just corrected it in the rare and extreme cases where it fails. Trusting the work of the scientists that came before you is absolutely critical to the progress of science -- if every graduate student had to experimentally verify everything that came before him or her, no one would ever get anything done. It is generally enough to be presented with the consensus position and the evidence for it, if a consensus position really does exist, as well as the caveats and limitations of the theory. The percentage of scientists that accept the validity of evolutionary theory in general is about similar to the number of percentage of scientists that accept the validity of the hypothesis that the Earth is warming and humans are a major contributor to this. But I imagine you wouldn't say that walking into graduate school accepting evolution "wouldn't fly in biology."
Metsfanmax wrote:thegreekdog wrote:I admittedly did not know that this is where you were going with your argument. My response to these (other than agreeing with BBS, who was relying upon the "government doesn't really care either and will be just as ineffective" argument, which doesn't really address your points, no offense BBS, and sorry for the long paranthetical) is as follows:*
(1) ExxonMobil should be considering the cost in future customers of their products when determining the value of continuing to cause environmental impacts.
Actually, no. In the ideal market that you speak of, ExxonMobil absolutely can not do this. Remember that an ideal market is perfectly competitive and any business is completely replaceable. Therefore, if any one business decides to be philanthropic and pay for the damage its products cause, they will soon go out of business because of competitors that sell their product at a lower price (because they don't pay for environmental fixes).(2) Not really a free market v. not free market thing (unless I'm missing it).
That specific point is meant to demonstrate that the free market does not optimize social outcomes if there is a significant negative externality. That means that the best the market can ever do is significantly bad for society as a whole in this case. Therefore if there is a reasonable chance that the government can reduce the magnitude of this externality, it should do so.(3) The people doing the actual damage will pay for it indirectly through their children and grandchildren. Thus, they should take that cost into account.
Again, in an ideal market this is also flawed, because even if I decide to stop driving a car for the sake of my children, there are millions of other people out there who will continue to drive their cars, and global warming is a collective issue that is only solved if the majority of people substantially limit their greenhouse gas footprint.(4) The cost should be factored into the price of the product on the market. Companies will lose the ability to do business, will lose customers and potential customers, and will generally have a bad time of it if climate change causes massive problems. Thus, those costs should be factored in.
Now this point I agree with. The cost should be factored into the price of the product on the market. That is the essential problem with externalities though -- they aren't factored in -- and point #1 demonstrates why no rational business in the ideal market can actually factor the price into their product. Only the entire market can shift, due to government intervention (or collective consumer action, I suppose -- but no one is organizing consumers in this way because that approach doesn't make a whole lot of sense).
Metsfanmax wrote:thegreekdog wrote:I admittedly did not know that this is where you were going with your argument. My response to these (other than agreeing with BBS, who was relying upon the "government doesn't really care either and will be just as ineffective" argument, which doesn't really address your points, no offense BBS, and sorry for the long paranthetical) is as follows:*
(1) ExxonMobil should be considering the cost in future customers of their products when determining the value of continuing to cause environmental impacts.
Actually, no. In the ideal market that you speak of, ExxonMobil absolutely can not do this. Remember that an ideal market is perfectly competitive and any business is completely replaceable. Therefore, if any one business decides to be philanthropic and pay for the damage its products cause, they will soon go out of business because of competitors that sell their product at a lower price (because they don't pay for environmental fixes).
Lootifer wrote:Night Strike wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:All I want is an additional tax to be levied on fossil fuels. This would ultimately be approximately a $2 tax per gallon on gasoline (compare to our current 50 cent net tax). No technology needs to be destroyed -- we just need to pay the correct price on carbon.
That's because carbon itself is "incorrect" to use in your opinion, which is why you'll use the government to get rid of it. The only correct prices are what the market chooses to pay, not what the government artificially imposes on a product. And your tax level will kill the economy. We saw how the economy slowed down when gas hit $3 per gallon and kept rising. Heck, according to Obama, our economy must currently be tanking because gas prices have been rapidly dropping.
Lol, once again the rest of the world disagrees (we all pay much higher tax on gas etc. and our economies survive). Your economy will simply adjust.
Metsfanmax wrote:Paddy The Cat wrote:I feel like most climatologists are biased; before they even publish their first paper they're passionate in their belief that humans have caused huge issues, i.e emission of CO2 by humans => global warming. They may or may not be correct, however I have seen that they tend to have smiliar opinions about such issues before even being able to comprehend evidence that may or may not support this belief. They begin learning as a biased individual, they are taught by biased individuals, they publish papers that are reviewed by biased individuals, and then send it out to the public. That shit doesn't fly in physics or math.
Of course, this is only what I've seen in my experience around climatologists. Nothing I say stands at too high a confidence interval, I am just stating what I suppose based on what I have observed.
Really now? Do you know many starting graduate students in physics who have no opinion on the validity of general relativity or quantum mechanics? Or any starting graduate students in math that have no opinion on the validity of the fundamental theorem of calculus? Of course not, because the major question of the validity of the theory has already been settled by the scientists that came before. Even when revolutions happen in physics that overturn previously established ideas, they almost never radically change the basis of our entire understanding of the science. Einstein didn't throw out Newtonian gravity -- he just corrected it in the rare and extreme cases where it fails. Trusting the work of the scientists that came before you is absolutely critical to the progress of science -- if every graduate student had to experimentally verify everything that came before him or her, no one would ever get anything done. It is generally enough to be presented with the consensus position and the evidence for it, if a consensus position really does exist, as well as the caveats and limitations of the theory. The percentage of scientists that accept the validity of evolutionary theory in general is about similar to the number of percentage of scientists that accept the validity of the hypothesis that the Earth is warming and humans are a major contributor to this. But I imagine you wouldn't say that walking into graduate school accepting evolution "wouldn't fly in biology."
Nobunaga wrote:2013 ranks as one of the least extreme U.S. weather years ever’– Many bad weather events at ‘historically low levels’
http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/10/18/ ... ow-levels/
... Meanwhile...
Al Gore said the fingerprints of man-made climate change are now increasingly visible in extreme weather events.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-1 ... arget.html
... Whatever.