THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[niMic]

I think it's a fair bet that everyone who voted for Option 1 or Option 3 would rather vote for the each other than Option 2. So if there's a new vote between the top 2 choices if none receive 50% of the vote, Option 2 might not win after all.

[Crazyirishman]

Just brainstorming for ideas... is there any way we can make this any more complicated than it needs to be?

[ahunda]

Ok. I decided to post one more time, mostly in response to Armandolas, who addressed me personally, and - I feel - grossly misrepresented my statements. So much so, that I´m not even sure, he read all my posts in this thread.

Calling me out to be more compromising ?

I was the one asking for a compromise in almost every single post here. I do understand the concerns & arguments against the old system, but I also see the advantages, that came with it (and that I tried to highlight in my previous posts), and so I have tried in all my posts in this here thread to find some middle ground, some form of compromise between the 2 extremes: The totally fixed seeding system of the prior Cups on one side and a total random draw on the other.

I openly supported option 3 in this thread & suggested a couple alternative ideas myself, so maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle. I personally could also live with a semi-random draw (seeding only a couple of clans, the top 16 or 8 or even only 4). The only thing, that I don´t like, is the total random draw. That is hardly an uncompromising stance.

And what about that "blackmailing" accusation ?

This whole debate started, when some people said, they didn´t like the old seeding system, that had been used in all Cups so far, and their clans would not participate, if we were using that system again. How is that any different from some people saying now, that they don´t like the total random draw & might not participate, if that system is used ?

I only brought to public attention, what is already happening behind the scenes, in private conversations. Some people are so opposed to the random draw, that they are indeed debating to opt out of this Cup, if it goes that way. And honestly: What´s wrong with that ? I look at the set-up & the rules of a tournament, and then I make up my mind, if I like it, and if I want to participate. That´s called freedom of choice.

And a short response to CoFs post: I find the *elitism* accusation unjustified & somewhat out of place here.

I wasn´t the one, who came up with the entire bye idea, so I can´t honestly say, I know the intentions behind it. But to me it seemed an honest attempt to address two issues: The scheduling question, that you mentioned yourself, and the problem of the very one-sided match-ups we had under the old seeding system in the 1st rounds of the last Cups.

Now you don´t have to like the suggestion & can argue against it. I can completely understand, if people don´t like giving bye´s (as a matter of fact, I had suggested to give not quite so many too). But to accuse the people behind the idea to only act out of selfish interests or a feeling of entitlement, is just missing the mark, I think.

Now, if tempers can cool down, maybe we can agree, that the old seeding system had its flaws & problems (I haven´t seen anybody insisting on that same set-up for the last 5-10 pages now, so this seems to be off the table anyway), but that there are concerns about a total random draw too ? And then really try for a compromise, somewhere in the middle ?

[Chariot of Fire]

My pointed remark about elitism was not an accusation directed at you (in fact I nearly went back to my post to edit it and add a comment to say how well-thought-out your earlier posts had been). I was alluding to the practice of awarding the top-ranked teams a bye. Why should they? I do however see a good reason for awarding the four semi-finalists of the previous cup a bye because they each have another 60 game challenge to complete.

I can't see any failing with my proposal - it's by far the fairest and most uncompromising. As I say, luck of the draw.

[Vid_FISO]

My pointed remark about elitism was not an accusation directed at you (in fact I nearly went back to my post to edit it and add a comment to say how well-thought-out your earlier posts had been). I was alluding to the practice of awarding the top-ranked teams a bye. Why should they? I do however see a good reason for awarding the four semi-finalists of the previous cup a bye because they each have another 60 game challenge to complete.

I can't see any failing with my proposal - it's by far the fairest and most uncompromising. As I say, luck of the draw.

You get a +1 from me (personally - but will happily support this within the clan discussions for our rep to change his/ our vote if this option is given)

[BGtheBrain]

COF you should be a politician

[Chariot of Fire]

haha, that's very good BG, though I would call it a classic case of selective reading. Elitism refers to the awarding of byes to the 'Top 4/8/16' (not the semi-finalists of the previous cup).

Plus my earlier post says it all really:

I would have no qualms with my own clan starting in Round 1 if it was preferred that way - the only reason I think the last 4 from the previous cup should get a bye is for expediency, otherwise you can put this off for another four months.

No-one seems to want to address this issue.

[BGtheBrain]

Why can't they play the finals of one while playing round 1 of the next one?

[eddie2]

Ahunda makes some good points, but one theme runs throughout his post: this is a cup for the top clans.

So why not restrict entry to CC4 to just the top 16 clans, after all they're the only ones who really count.

this i agree with 100 percent at present players are saying there are 2 main events and cds are agreeing this is a load of bullshit there are 3 main events...
clan league
ccup
newcomers cup (which is in its 3rd or 4th season)

could i propose a new format that might be good....

just now there are 50 odd clans divide them top and bottom half... top half play in the ccup (maybe change the name.) bottom play newcomers cup(name change proberly as well)

then the winners of both of these events play each other... this will save clans signing up to a 12 month plus event and all the arguements of format because it will be a pure random draw with a ladder system for who they will face..

[Chariot of Fire]

Why can't they play the finals of one while playing round 1 of the next one?

I could, but that's just me. The majority of my clanmates could not (and we're only a small clan). I wouldn't want to have to sit for anyone now would I !!

[BGtheBrain]

Why can't they play the finals of one while playing round 1 of the next one?

I could, but that's just me. The majority of my clanmates could not (and we're only a small clan). I wouldn't want to have to sit for anyone now would I !!

lol

[Arama86n]

Why can't they play the finals of one while playing round 1 of the next one?

Don't forget that many clans also play in other competitions simultaneously, CL5 & RLIII in our case, not to mention other engagements ofc...

[crispybits]

And what about that "blackmailing" accusation ?

This whole debate started, when some people said, they didn´t like the old seeding system, that had been used in all Cups so far, and their clans would not participate, if we were using that system again. How is that any different from some people saying now, that they don´t like the total random draw & might not participate, if that system is used ?

Again, dealing with the point not the poster so ahunda feel free to reply or not as you wish.

I've just read through the entire draft format thread, and one clan (mine, which doesn't make arguing anything easier on me believe me) said that they would not participate. Not that lower clans in general would not participate, just that our clan would not. If you read Vid's posts around that time it is also clear that he believed that a final decision had been made regarding the seeding/random issue.

A couple of others asked the question about what the motivation for the lower clans would be, but if you count them then icepack made several statements in that thread about motivation from the higher clans too - I don't count either as blackmail btw.

This is VERY different to Bruceswar coming out and saying that multiple higher clans would likely not participate if the vote went against them.

If these clans felt this way, then they are all free to come out and state this, but one person speaking for multiple clans in an attempt to alter voting patterns is a very different thing to one person speaking for their own clan after he believes a decision is final and there is no influence to be gained.

Edited to try and make more sense

[Foxglove]

Why can't they play the finals of one while playing round 1 of the next one?

Is that a joke?

It's even less funny than your offensive avatar.

[Chariot of Fire]

a very different thing to one person speaking for their own clan, who frankly we know nobody cares apart from us if we enter or not

Actually I care. I would hate to think that any person or clan turns down an invitation to a tournament due to feeling disenfranchised. The whole purpose of this tourney was to bring together the clans under one roof and give every participant an equal shot. That's how it should remain, without fear or favouritism.

[BGtheBrain]

i ccant figure out if your serious about the avatar or not...

anyways, no joke. the previous tourney should have no impact on the new tourney. if your clan is unable to handle the next event, then they shouldnt sign up. They certainly shouldnt expect a newly created bye to occur because the clan cant handle 60 extra games amongst themselves against a low seeded clan.

[IcePack]

i ccant figure out if your serious about the avatar or not...

anyways, no joke. the previous tourney should have no impact on the new tourney. if your clan is unable to handle the next event, then they shouldnt sign up. They certainly shouldnt expect a newly created bye to occur because the clan cant handle 60 extra games amongst themselves against a low seeded clan.

If that's the case then the new one shouldn't start until the last one finishes.

[BGtheBrain]

Well, since this thread doesnt matter anyways, im not going to even bother with this one.

but for real, im baffled about the avatar comment. Ill assume foxglove is bigoted against mullets

[ahunda]

@ crispybits:

I am not part of the CDF group, so I don´t know, what Bruce or anyone else has posted there. I am referring to my own statements in this here thread, and that was what Armandolas was referring to as well, I believe.

If you want to turn this into a debate about bad form: I am hearing, that certain people have used secret mass PMs to the CDF representatives of the lower ranked clans to mobilise them to vote for an all random draw, without making their case in the discussion & vote threads.

Now the vote goes that way, people are ignoring all alternative suggestions & pleas to maybe make a compromise. The message to the rest of us being then: We voted this, suck it up !

Wtf do you expect me to do at that point ? We have argued here, with arguments, counter-proposals, alternative suggestions, everything being ignored & tossed out the window.

Well, I don´t have to suck up anything. If I don´t like it, I don´t participate. That´s as true for me & my clan as it is for you & yours.

I don´t see this as blackmailing, at least not from my side, here in this thread. I merely made a public statement, that my clan might not participate under those rules. You are completely free to ignore this, just as we ignored your clans concerns, high ranked elitist uncompromising bullies that we are (do I need a sarcasm smiley for the reading impaired here ?).

And now it´s up to you: We can continue this game of who-said-what and who-started-what for 10 more pages. Or we can focus on the real questions maybe ?

[Armandolas]

Wtf do you expect me to do at that point ? We have argued here, with arguments, counter-proposals, alternative suggestions, everything being ignored & tossed out the window.

Well, I don´t have to suck up anything. If I don´t like it, I don´t participate. That´s as true for me & my clan as it is for you & yours.

I do honestly hope not..people made an effort to suggest and discuss the better format possible.Every opinion is valid and should be taken into account even if we dont 100% agree with it.
Even though im no one in the clan world, and have no word or influence in any decision, i wish it turns out to be a comp where every clan is at least a bit happy
Cheers

[Chariot of Fire]

i ccant figure out if your serious about the avatar or not...

anyways, no joke. the previous tourney should have no impact on the new tourney. if your clan is unable to handle the next event, then they shouldnt sign up. They certainly shouldnt expect a newly created bye to occur because the clan cant handle 60 extra games amongst themselves against a low seeded clan.

Wow, and you're an authority figure? What a joke.

[BGtheBrain]

Anyone?

[Keefie]

I really don't understand TNC's position on this.

They voted for 2, then changed to 1 but really want 3

Now one of the best suggestions of them all (CoF's) is being poo poohed by them

[Foxglove]

i ccant figure out if your serious about the avatar or not...

anyways, no joke. the previous tourney should have no impact on the new tourney.

It's supposed to be the next edition of same tournament. The general idea for things like that is one competition follows another. So when a previous competition concludes, a new competition starts! And then when that competition runs its course and a clan has been declared a winner by prevailing in the final match up, then everything begins again.

One follows the other. CCup 1. CCup 2. CCup 3. CCup 4. They are sequential events.

If this cup format diverges wildly from its predecessors as it seems that it will, then it should probably be called The First Official CC Clan Director's Cup. And it would be the first of its kind, and it can have whatever start date it likes.

But if it's the 4th edition of the Conqueror's Cup tournament that everyone has enjoyed for the past 3 incarnations, then it will begin after a winner has been declared for CCup 3.

Elitist Whatnot

if your clan is unable to handle the next event, then they shouldnt sign up. They certainly shouldnt expect a newly created bye to occur because the clan cant handle 60 extra games amongst themselves against a low seeded clan.

Top clans earn their position by having great players and by organizing those great players into great teams. Great communication on great teams by great players takes time, thought, effort, and planning. No top clan likes playing in more than one to two intense events at a time (generally the cup and league) because they like to focus on giving their best performance. If you have to focus your efforts over too many games and events, then your focus suffers and so do your results. This is always true.

And it is particularly true in the cup, where the most intense and difficult match-ups occur in the semi-finals and the finals. Every round of the competition is more difficult (as it should be). A lot of clans giving their opinions here will never be in the position of playing in those matches, which is unfortunate - because it means that they basically disregard the Cup after their own clan is knocked out in the first round or two. And it means that when discussions about the next cup come up they couldn't possibly care less about the effort being put forth by clans still in the competition, and it leads them to make ridiculous suggestions like asking clans playing in the previous finals to organize and compete in another challenge simultaneously.

[niMic]

i ccant figure out if your serious about the avatar or not...

anyways, no joke. the previous tourney should have no impact on the new tourney. if your clan is unable to handle the next event, then they shouldnt sign up. They certainly shouldnt expect a newly created bye to occur because the clan cant handle 60 extra games amongst themselves against a low seeded clan.

Wow, and you're an authority figure? What a joke.

Agreed. Opens his posting with a garbage meme, continues by essentially trolling.

Point. Less.