[Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

[rishaed]

I need some time to process all this. . . I'm away for less than a day and poof so much discussion is generated that I don't know where It all came from. My first two cents are that betiko and mets are at each others throats, nothing extremely new here, but They both have decent arguments on why each other is scum. I'm going to reread and think about which one strikes me as more scummy. I would go with Mets, but the fact that Betiko's gifting can't be confirmed at all, see dead person, gifts stolen, RB?/MoB was RB'd?. However Mets isn't much better off here. I suspect things like watcher/tracker/doc were left to gifts. . . of all things we don't seem to have that many going around atm. And YES PLEASE PROD GUSTAF.
As for the cop situation, both Cops are confirmed as cops. . . for the most part, whether scum/town I'm having my doubts atm. Nendreel/Gustaf if scum doesn't lose anything by outing third party, and his night actions otherwise haven't been confirmed. Now it might be a little risky, but If there is no other cops in town he can get away with it and get some good Town Cred as well.
Chuck for above stated reasons is also slightly scummy, but Transparent.
I would say now that we've massclaimed, if Chuck really is town, then he is just as useful to town as the regular cop is. Why, because if he gets our role names, he can out any scum who fakeclaimed because most likely the name that they claimed was not the name that their character actually is.

[pancakemix]

You don't give a f*ck anyways, you are third party.

Fuck you. Ive been doing more scum hunting than half the town in this game.

Let's not let this get out of hand, you two.

[pancakemix]

Vote Count

thechuck - 1 (MoB)
Betiko - 1 (Mets)
Mets - 1 (Betiko)

10 alive makes 6 to lynch. Deadline it March 12

Gustaf has been prodded.

[betiko]

You don't give a f*ck anyways, you are third party.

Fuck you. Ive been doing more scum hunting than half the town in this game.

Let's not let this get out of hand, you two.

all good, that was just the heat of the moment as you can see the "scum conga line" has cooled down the atmosphere!

Anyway, to answer mob, of course I think that chuck is scum. He has been helping me out for brownie points and he thinks that would lower my guard. I would never have caught him if he didn't "rolecoped" mets though. I am the one who threw him under the bus; and mets is not stupid he knows that if we get one we get both. They sacrifice chuck and then they get to lynch me tomorrow, well at least I see now that other players are not as convinced as mob that if chuck turns scum it means that i'm scum.

question to mod: can we use our PR + our gifts on the same night? I haven't sent gifts to PR because I thought they couldn't use both at once. you explained what the drummer boy's role was in the scene, but you didn't explain what a toymaker is, is that normal? I guess IB could answer that, he started some explanations but they are still rather vague.

ok, suppose we lynch chuck today. I guess I could say who I'm sending a gift to tonight; if scums roleblock me then the cop would be free to investigate me or mets. the problem is that they could still steal gifts from the recipient. In that case we could always put a watcher on the recipient. But.... you'd see me and the gift stealer visit that person (hopefully chuck is either the roleblocker or the vote stealer though).
I don't know, we might be able to come up with a plan lynching chuck. My only fear is that all 3 of us are town, in that case scums must be having a big laugh. If we kill chuck first and he turns town then I guess both me and mets are town.
Here's another thing: if we lynch mets today and he turns scum we can vig chuck tonight and win a day. Whatever rocks your boat, but I think that all 3 of us being town is very unlikely (I really hope that I'm not wrong there...).
If we lynch mets, vig chuck tonight if mets turns scum that will be 5 town, 1 third party 1 scum tomorrow..

[rishaed]

so what were your 3 night actions mets?

I protected Little Witt.

Sorry - I misread that, and thought you said "what was your night 3 action." You already know my N2 action, and on N1, I sent a gift to someone who is no longer in the game.

well if he's no longer in the game i see no reason not to tell us who you sent it to.

spiesr.

And you have now refused to acknowledge whether you received my gift on N2 in multiple consecutive posts, so Vote Betiko. I'll unvote when you respond.

Ok, I have been rereading and rereading, trying to make heads/tails of the Betiko/Mets debate. Vote Mets. the blue part struck me as odd.
A. Betiko Responded.
B. He is essencially saying I'm not changing my vote unless you change your story. Why? Because Betiko had already said his gifts were stolen that night. Thus if Betiko responded the way he wanted him to, Mets could then say- He lied about what happened earlier, soooo Lynch all Liars. (Mets has said that he doesn't believe that Betikos gifts were actually "stolen" thus I conclude he wants a different response than My gifts were stolen).
C. Which leaves me with Mets trying to make it so Betiko cannot get rid of his vote, and thus might be lynched at deadline.
D. Mets still hasn't unvoted even though he said that he would once Betiko responds. The fact that Betiko cannot logically state anything else than my gifts were stolen N2 becomes irrelevant from this and later posts. A case of mild forgetfullness? I trow not.

[betiko]

By the way: calling edoc for message delivery tonight. I m not quite certain how this works but I want to send a gift to someone and let edoc or Witt know who I m sending it to in private!

[Metsfanmax]

so what were your 3 night actions mets?

I protected Little Witt.

Sorry - I misread that, and thought you said "what was your night 3 action." You already know my N2 action, and on N1, I sent a gift to someone who is no longer in the game.

well if he's no longer in the game i see no reason not to tell us who you sent it to.

spiesr.

And you have now refused to acknowledge whether you received my gift on N2 in multiple consecutive posts, so Vote Betiko. I'll unvote when you respond.

Ok, I have been rereading and rereading, trying to make heads/tails of the Betiko/Mets debate. Vote Mets. the blue part struck me as odd.
A. Betiko Responded.
B. He is essencially saying I'm not changing my vote unless you change your story. Why? Because Betiko had already said his gifts were stolen that night. Thus if Betiko responded the way he wanted him to, Mets could then say- He lied about what happened earlier, soooo Lynch all Liars. (Mets has said that he doesn't believe that Betikos gifts were actually "stolen" thus I conclude he wants a different response than My gifts were stolen).
C. Which leaves me with Mets trying to make it so Betiko cannot get rid of his vote, and thus might be lynched at deadline.
D. Mets still hasn't unvoted even though he said that he would once Betiko responds. The fact that Betiko cannot logically state anything else than my gifts were stolen N2 becomes irrelevant from this and later posts. A case of mild forgetfullness? I trow not.

I already responded to this issue. When I originally posted that comment, I had completely forgotten that betiko claimed to have his gifts stolen on N2 (honestly). So I was legitimately confused as to why betiko wasn't answering me on this point, and I therefore thought that he was avoiding answering me because if he admitted getting a gift from me, it would prove I'm town (and therefore, his reluctance to clear me meant he was mafia). By the time I later realized my mistake, I had become convinced that he was mafia for other reasons, and the thought occurred to me that he could be lying about getting his gifts stolen, so I reneged on my earlier promise. I could unvote if you want, but I would just revote betiko, because I'm now sure he's mafia (see my comments regarding he and chuck, etc.).

[Metsfanmax]

5:59 AM, right after Day 3 starts:

and I can confirm that someone tried to steal my gifts last night.

vote rishaed

6:44 AM:

and I can confirm that someone tried to steal my gifts last night.

vote rishaed

This looks like the break we've been waiting for. vote rishaed

I recognize that I had an awful misplay by forgetting about betiko's claimed gift stealing, and you either believe me or you don't. But the evidence on these two is staring us in the face.

[betiko]

you've been all over my back on day 3 because of the gift stealing issue and the fact that I accused witt because I received no notification regarding gifts received after night 2. Witt said he had sent me a gift, I said it wasn't true and voted for him. Then we had all this discussion and realized that if gifts were sent and stolen on the same night the mod wouldn't even mention it, most likely. This has been confirmed today with ani sending a gift to mob, mob having his gifts stolen last night and not aknowledging receiving that gift.
So should we really beleive that you would've forgotten my gifts were stolen the night you've "sent me one"? During yesterday's discussion one of the main facts that would've struck you should you be telling the truth, is that I had said that the gift you supposedly sent me got stolen. After all, you gave up on protecting the cop just to send me a gift, so I guess me receiving that gift would've been pretty important for you. How could we believe that on the next day you suddenly forgot about it, unless your story is entirely made up?

[betiko]

and you can try to find all the evidence to link me with chuck. Being the most active, the only reason to keep me alive is to set me up as scum since the beginning. Chuck has been playing that game since the begining. Seriously, do you think that when people play scum they make it that obvious? scum A turns left, a few minutes later scum B turns left. Then scum A turns right scum B turns right. Interestingly enough, you will find out that chuck is the one always following my moves, not the other way around. You can't acuse me for having a scum tailing all my moves, I don't think this manoeuvre is fooling anyone.

[thechuck51]

5:59 AM, right after Day 3 starts:

and I can confirm that someone tried to steal my gifts last night.

vote rishaed

6:44 AM:

and I can confirm that someone tried to steal my gifts last night.

vote rishaed

This looks like the break we've been waiting for. vote rishaed

I recognize that I had an awful misplay by forgetting about betiko's claimed gift stealing, and you either believe me or you don't. But the evidence on these two is staring us in the face.

I investigated him the night before and when I got jessica claus i figured he was town. When somebody i'm fairly sure is town says his gifts were stolen and votes somebody because of it I was willing to follow his lead and I assumed he'd caught somebody red handed. But you forgot to include the part where I unvoted because Betiko didn't have any real evidence:

I just know that i received a pm telling me all gifts under my tree are gone. Good news is that i didn t have any (unless someone sent any night 2 that got stolen before i even got informed about it) so a roleblocker and a giftsteeler...

then how do you know it was rishaed?

fastposed by MoB

I'm going back to my begining of day 1 case. rishaed joking about mob stealing gifts and being the first one to bring it up. It looked like a very plausible game mechanic, now i know for sure it's part of the game.

unvote this isn't quite the concrete evidence i was hoping for

[MoB Deadly]

I am going to highlight the most important posts I made yesterday because I know I posted a lot and I feel like people are a little overwhelmed.

Watch this.... I am taking Betikos exact logic and I am going to simplify it.

option A:
chuck, betiko and mets are all town (could work but unlikely)

option B:
chuck & mets are scum, betiko is town (my thought)

option C:
chuck is scum, betiko & mets are town (not possible!!!! chuck couldn't have given met's nameclaim)

option D:
chuck & betiko are scum, mets is town (not possible!!!! chuck couldn't have given met's nameclaim)

option E:
chuck, betiko and mets are all scum (could work but unlikely)

Option A: 3 town (not likely)
Option B: Chuck + 1 is scum.
Option C: Almost impossible.
Option D: Chuck + 1 is scum
Option E: almost impossible.

no matter how you break it down, chuck looks scummy. Lets just lynch him. and move on from there.

Chuck HAS to be scum unless all 3 of them are town. That is fact no matter how you phrase it. If we lynch chuck, and he flips town, this AUTOMATICALLY clears Bets and Mets and we can put their cases to rest.

If chuck is scum, it is a gamble whether or not Betiko or Mets is scum. So why not just lynch the SURE THING tonight?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And to reiterate again. At the end of day 3, the banwagon had 5 votes on Betiko, and 2 votes on soundman. When the deadline was approaching, chuck and betiko both switched their votes to soundman.

If chuck flips town, then no big deal then betiko and mets are both town anyway.

But if chuck flips scum, that is huge in mets favor, because IF CHUCK WAS SCUM, why would he switch his vote from a town gifter, to a random 3rd party player. That makes zero sense, unless betiko was a scum buddy.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are we gambling our vote on mets? Mets cannot be scum without chuck being scum, because chuck is the one who cleared mets before mets claimed.

Option A: If Chuck is mafia, either Betiko or Mets is scum.
Option B: If mets is mafia - Chuck is 100% mafia.
Option C: If Chuck is town, betiko and mets is 100% town.

So lets lynch Chuck so we can narrow it down to 50/50 scum/town. AND we get the probability of getting Option C which clears everybody.

If we mislynch Mets, there is still the possibility that Chuck and Betiko is mafia.

I hope this convinced some people. Im kinda done driving this point any further.

[edocsil]

By the way: calling edoc for message delivery tonight. I m not quite certain how this works but I want to send a gift to someone and let edoc or Witt know who I m sending it to in private!

I'll gift it you to tonight then

[Metsfanmax]

you've been all over my back on day 3 because of the gift stealing issue and the fact that I accused witt because I received no notification regarding gifts received after night 2. Witt said he had sent me a gift, I said it wasn't true and voted for him. Then we had all this discussion and realized that if gifts were sent and stolen on the same night the mod wouldn't even mention it, most likely. This has been confirmed today with ani sending a gift to mob, mob having his gifts stolen last night and not aknowledging receiving that gift.

That is exactly the opposite of what happened on D3. I completely missed the relevance of your first post about gifts getting stolen; I even forgot you said it at one point:

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

What? He never said that his gifts were stolen, at least as far as I can tell. He was asking if that had happened to anyone else. In fact, he's taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously but now doesn't seem to think that the person who "slipped" and revealed that ability is the one that has it?

Then, later on, when IB pushed the point about your assertion, I even defended that you might be telling the truth:

Here is something completely over looked.

Little Witt claims he sent Betiko a gift night one, which Betiko states he never received.

Night two Betiko states he received a PM saying his gifts were stolen. Yet he did not receive a PM his gifts were stolen night one.

Betiko still might have gotten a message saying "all your gifts were stolen" even if he didn't have any, since that's what the intended mechanic ostensibly was.

Before I decide what to do, can we get a vote count? Don't want to accidentally put betiko at L-1 or lynch.

I ended up voting for you mainly because I didn't believe in your claim as a gifter; my D3 case had little to do with you claiming your gifts were stolen. Only on D4 did I really start to suspect you were lying about it. So please stop with the revisionist history.

So should we really beleive that you would've forgotten my gifts were stolen the night you've "sent me one"? During yesterday's discussion one of the main facts that would've struck you should you be telling the truth, is that I had said that the gift you supposedly sent me got stolen.

Yes, you should believe that. Do you think it makes me proud to admit that I forgot I sent you a gift? I'm fairly busy in RL lately, and I have a lot on my mind. I have never been very good at keeping all the facts in a mafia game in my head all at once, and I'm bound to forget things. I thought about what I would have done, had I remembered that on D3, and I'm not sure whether it would have affected my play, because I don't think I would have wanted to claim at that point. But either way I'm embarrassed that I forgot it, and it definitely would have changed the course of the game (at least for me). It's too late now to fix that, but it's not too late to correct my mistake and play properly now.

After all, you gave up on protecting the cop just to send me a gift, so I guess me receiving that gift would've been pretty important for you. How could we believe that on the next day you suddenly forgot about it, unless your story is entirely made up?

No, as I pointed out earlier, I chose not to protect the cop because I thought there was basically zero chance that mafia would target him. So I thought the clear choice was to send someone a gift, and I was pretty convinced you were town at the end of D2. Only after you claimed did I really start to become suspicious of you.

Like I said, you can either choose to believe that I forgot, or you can choose not to. That one's up to you. I can only lay out what I know is the truth.

[Iron Butterfly]

We can talk in circles forever.

Chuck is the center of it all and we need to see what he flips. I agree with MOB on this. It would be stupid to lynch Met or Betiko without finding out weather chuck is Town or Mafia.

Vote Chuck

I am concerned about Gustaf not responding and believe we need his input.

[Metsfanmax]

Why are we gambling our vote on mets? Mets cannot be scum without chuck being scum, because chuck is the one who cleared mets before mets claimed.

Option A: If Chuck is mafia, either Betiko or Mets is scum.
Option B: If mets is mafia - Chuck is 100% mafia.
Option C: If Chuck is town, betiko and mets is 100% town.

So lets lynch Chuck so we can narrow it down to 50/50 scum/town. AND we get the probability of getting Option C which clears everybody.

If we mislynch Mets, there is still the possibility that Chuck and Betiko is mafia.

I hope this convinced some people. Im kinda done driving this point any further.

You are right. I recognize that with the way I played on this day, it's not reasonable for me to expect people to put all their eggs in the betiko basket, and chuck is the safe play, even though I am concerned about endgame.

unvote

vote thechuck51

[thechuck51]

If chuck flips town, then no big deal...

either way you are one step closer to your win condition right? when i flip town, day 5 is going to have 3 mafia, 4 town, and 1 survivor. that puts you in a pretty good spot doesn't it? town is at lylo so you are safe. town can't afford to lynch you and the mafia doesn't need to. A mislynch today pretty much guarantees you a win. vote MoB

I'd rather take our chances at mylo tomorrow then let you lynch a townie today.

fastposted

congrats MoB, looks like you are going to win...

[betiko]

guys I'm starting to be more and more worried of the unlikely option of me, mets and chuck being town... because that possibility does exist and it's been hunting me... supposing this is the case; mets and chuck, please give me scenarios of who mafia can be, I'm willing to listen. Chuck, you are the center of all this. If what you say has a remote chance of being true, you can clear 5 players including yourself and you are down to those options: (3/5) rishaed, IB, ani, mob and gustaf. Please elaborate a few scenarios.

Also IB we need to learn more from your role, from toymakers and from your night actions. Of course I want to hear from gustaf, but I think it's very likely that he didn't even send a night action since he's gone for so long.

[betiko]

ps: we still have 10 days left, let's take our time, this decision is too important for the course of our game.

[Metsfanmax]

guys I'm starting to be more and more worried of the unlikely option of me, mets and chuck being town... because that possibility does exist and it's been hunting me... supposing this is the case; mets and chuck, please give me scenarios of who mafia can be, I'm willing to listen. Chuck, you are the center of all this. If what you say has a remote chance of being true, you can clear 5 players including yourself and you are down to those options: (3/5) rishaed, IB, ani, mob and gustaf. Please elaborate a few scenarios.

Writing down every possible permutation isn't going to help us figure out who is actually mafia. chuck is easily the most certain lead we have right now, and I'm not going to reject that possibility just because there do exist possible scenarios where he's not town. They may be possible but they're not at all plausible given the evidence we presently have. I'm interested to see who chuck thinks is mafia out of that list, but let's not derail the case amidst idle speculation.

It would be nice if pcm would tell us if gustaf sent in a night action at all, so we can know whether to hold our breath or not.

[Gustaf Wasa]

Sorry, guys. Truly hectic week. When it was night in both my Mafia games I breathed a sigh of relief and just tuned out. Will be active again now.

My role, by the way, is Frosty the Snowman, town cop.

Naturally I was roleblocked again tonight, anything other than that or NK would be mismanagement by the Mafia. Note: not good to reveal yourself as a cop before you have found at least one Mafia. I'm looking at my predecessor in the role.

Okay, Metsfanmax confirmed that theChuck got Mets' role right, so that seems to clear them plus betiko who theChuck also investigated ... I first thought. Unless all are scum, I then thought. Could also be an invisible Godfather in there. Could also be that the Mafia started out with gifts they can pool to allow them a Cop ability (my pet theory), or that they have a role with a Cop ability. Like Metsfanmax says, nothing is proven, and it seems strange that town would have two cops.

But how odd that MoB Deadly didn't get a gift on N2 from betiko, which betiko says he gave. And that betiko's gifts were stolen so he couldn't mention them.

Also odd that betiko voted for Little Witt even though he admitted (in the heat of the moment, perhaps?) that he believed Little Witt to be town. And he also was to a large degree responsible for the lynch of Soundman, who was pretty obviously not Mafia. Because he knew he could get Spiesr's vote on that one, since it allowed Spiesr to win the game. Leaving us two fewer non-Mafia. Bravo....

NoS was betiko's N2 and N3 recipient, only revealed by betiko right after NoS is lynched, so it can't be confirmed. Such bad luck once again.

Then betiko and chuck, the only two people who had their votes on me, switched to soundman, making it 5-4, and therefore only one person had to be gullible enough to unvote, forcing the runoff between betiko and soundman. The play was a perfectly executed maneuver (though only barely in time) to save betiko, and it worked, incredibly. I no longer have any doubt in my mind that they are scum buddies.

Beautiful indeed.

I agree with other speakers, let's just lynch theChuck and we'll go from there. Hopefully straight on to another Mafia.

vote theChuck

Let's do this and not let ourselves be dragged into reading and responding to more meter-long posts from scum.

[MoB Deadly]

If chuck flips town, then no big deal...

either way you are one step closer to your win condition right? when i flip town, day 5 is going to have 3 mafia, 4 town, and 1 survivor. that puts you in a pretty good spot doesn't it? town is at lylo so you are safe. town can't afford to lynch you and the mafia doesn't need to. A mislynch today pretty much guarantees you a win. vote MoB

I'd rather take our chances at mylo tomorrow then let you lynch a townie today.

fastposted

congrats MoB, looks like you are going to win...

If you flip town, that's not the ideal situation, but it will help us a LOT. That means we can confirm that Betiko and Mets are town as well and it narrows our choices dramatically. Right now we can't verify either of them because of their night actions

[Iron Butterfly]

guys I'm starting to be more and more worried of the unlikely option of me, mets and chuck being town... because that possibility does exist and it's been hunting me... supposing this is the case; mets and chuck, please give me scenarios of who mafia can be, I'm willing to listen. Chuck, you are the center of all this. If what you say has a remote chance of being true, you can clear 5 players including yourself and you are down to those options: (3/5) rishaed, IB, ani, mob and gustaf. Please elaborate a few scenarios.

Also IB we need to learn more from your role, from toymakers and from your night actions. Of course I want to hear from gustaf, but I think it's very likely that he didn't even send a night action since he's gone for so long.

At this point of the game everything that can be said has been said ad nauseum. Making more WIFOM theories is pointless. Mob, Met and Gustaff have effectively stated where we are. I strongly believe chuck is scum and I have stated why several time why. Having two cops with proven abilities is silly. A regular cop would be useless to mafia but a role cop would make sense for mafia to have.

Everything about my role has already been revealed. My role is simple but can be powerful. The amount of gifts I have is always doubled. if I am given one I will have two. If I have two I will have four. I can only do one night action per night. I potentially could have been the quickest to exchange xmas magic. I have received no gifts so at this point I am a Vanilla Townie as I have no night actions.

While I may have no night actions tonight mafia will most certainly have to second guess for tomorrow night.

[anamainiacks]

Heh, the thread always explodes overnight when I go to bed... That's a lot to chew on! But I agree with the folk before me, that theChuck presently seems to have the highest chance of flipping scum.

The outcome of the vote is certainly highly beneficial to the town, regardless of which side Chuck turns out to be. If Chuck is scum, we know one of Mets and betiko should be scum as well. Whereas if Chuck is town, Mets and betiko are fully cleared (because I cannot envision a logical scenario in which chuck is town, and either of the other 2 are scum - there would be no reason for a town rolecop to cover for ANY scum).

So if the former happens, we have 1 scum out and another to hunt the next day. And even if the latter happens, we have 2 confirmed townies (mets and betiko), in addition to the 2 we already have (edoc and Witt). Thereafter, there'll only be 5 people to choose 3 scum from - and I know 1 out of those 5 that definitely isn't scum.

However, the thing that stands out to me most, and makes me more certain than not that theChuck is guilty, is the fact that Gustaf claimed Town Cop, which I understand to be a full cop, instead of a faction cop to complement Chuck's claim of a Town Rolecop. Thus, I see no reason for the townies to have a rolecop in play when we already have a full cop. Thus, vote thechuck51.

And I guess in the unlikely event that Chuck indeed turns out to be town, we can turn our suspicion on Gustaf as a Mafia Cop, withholding his information in the name of being roleblocked.

[betiko]

gustaf 2 things: my gift to mob was on night 1 not night 2. This is like the 10th time that people change my story regarding this (you and mob basically) and it gets tiring. Second thing, you've been saying for the second or third time that I voted witt thinking he was town. Please quote such thing, I cannot let this kind of rumours become "facts" in the eyes of town just because you repeat it several times to make it look more real. For the last time: I voted witt at that time because:
1. he said he had sent me a gift n2 and I got no notification for it. I was pretty sure mods would tell us, but I now think it's more possible that we wouldn't even be informed of received gifts the night they get stolen.
2. I didn't understand his first claim because of the bad wording; I understood that he could send only one gift per different person during the entire game. This made no sense for santa, knowing that I am a regular gifter and I haven't such restriction

Then I understood that witt was probably telling the truth as more people showed up in the thread and no one counterclaimed santa (a role obviously in the game). The split was between a town gifter and a town super gifter. While my opinion regarding witt was changing with time, my vote was still on him because he had left a few things unanwsered and I wanted to gatehr other reactions. I knew that I was not going to be able to flip the votes towards mets my prime suspect, so I tried to flip them ASAP towards a third party who flavorwise, from what I had seen in the rankin/bass christmas specials was a character potentially ruining christmas.

please don't make me repeat myself several times a day!

Regarding chuck, I perfectly agree with all what you guys are saying. I just want to add a few stuff:

chuck town: mets and me 100% cleared with edoc and witt. One of the 4 will obviously get NK and we will be at lylo 4/1/3 if mob is indeed third party, or 5/3 if mob is scum. If mob is third party I hope he won't sport scum because he could perfectly decide to block a lynch. Nevertheless, I think it's not in mob's best interest, scum would know he can be an asset for later and wouldn't go after him ever. If he turns town the scumhunt will become really difficult I have to say, and even if it clears 2 townies this would be a terrible news.

chuck scum: there is at least one scum between mets and me. If he isn't a mafia rolecop, I think that we can safely say that mets is his scumbuddie because he's the one who would've given him a fakeclaim confirmed by mets and we can vig mets during the night. Also, it is quite likely that we kill the gift stealer or the roleblocker there with chuck, which would give town much more margin for night actions. There would still be a slight chance that we were 3 scums and I wouldn't be 100% cleared though.

we go for mets/me today:

the lynched person is scum: then chuck can safely be viged.
the lynched person is town: in that case I don't think we can jump to any 100% certain conclusion unfortunately.

Anyway, I think that looking at it this way I have to agree that chuck is the best option. If he turns town, hats off to mafia seriously, nice set up (even if it shouldn't be completely over, winning will become a miracle). I am just not liking gustaf's and mob's conclusions regarding myself, they are both convinced to chose to lynch me over mets if chuck flips scum for completely biaised reasons. if you guys are who you say you are (quite convinced about gustaf because of the day 2 timing) I hope you will be objective tomorrow.

unvote vote the chuck