[Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

[anamainiacks]

Before I decide what to do, can we get a vote count? Don't want to accidentally put betiko at L-1 or lynch.

Approximate Vote Count:
Little Witt - 1 (edocsil)
betiko - 2 (Gustaf, Witt)
soundman - 2 (betiko, spiesr)
Deadline February 22. A 24-hour runoff will commence in the event of a tie.

[rishaed]

I feel that if we don't lynch someone today even though we have claims, its counterproductive. So I would rather lynch claimed 3rd party then, either of the claimed gifters. It could be that speisr is taking us for a trip, but oh well here goes nothin' vote soundman.

[betiko]

I feel that if we don't lynch someone today even though we have claims, its counterproductive. So I would rather lynch claimed 3rd party then, either of the claimed gifters. It could be that speisr is taking us for a trip, but oh well here goes nothin' vote soundman.

pcm changed the rule and the one with the most votes get lynched no matter what once deadline is reached, which is what happened on day 2, unlike day 1.

I still think we really need to get an extension of deadline here!!

[Metsfanmax]

I've had my suspicions about betiko for a while now, and I don't see why I should trust his claim. By his own admission he's allegedly one of probably many gift givers in this game, so even if I'm wrong (which I doubt) we haven't lynched a power role.

Vote Betiko

[betiko]

I've had my suspicions about betiko for a while now, and I don't see why I should trust his claim. By his own admission he's allegedly one of probably many gift givers in this game, so even if I'm wrong (which I doubt) we haven't lynched a power role.

Vote Betiko

lol so you'd rather lynch me for being 100% coherent all game, having the possibility to prove my claim by telling who I sent a gift to on night 1 and on night 2 rather than a 3rd party because I am probably one of many gifters?
your posts are each time more interesting mets.
Are you against an deadline extension mets?

[Metsfanmax]

I've had my suspicions about betiko for a while now, and I don't see why I should trust his claim. By his own admission he's allegedly one of probably many gift givers in this game, so even if I'm wrong (which I doubt) we haven't lynched a power role.

Vote Betiko

lol so you'd rather lynch me for being 100% coherent all game, having the possibility to prove my claim by telling who I sent a gift to on night 1 and on night 2 rather than a 3rd party because I am probably one of many gifters?

I'd rather lynch you because I think you're scum. You're welcome to attempt to dissuade me by telling us who you sent a gift to, but obviously whether or not those people say they got gifts is not going to prove either way whether you're telling the truth or not.

your posts are each time more interesting mets.
Are you against an deadline extension mets?

No -- but at this point we have no confirmation that such an extension would happen, so I voted you as I am presently the most suspicious of you.

[betiko]

well go ahead, tell me in what way I am scum please. because lynching me because there are plenty of gifters out there as an excuse rather than a third party is pretty funny.

you are not trying for that extension; I guess it means you are perfectly fine with a speedlynch on me while half of the players are away right?

ok, I have told you that I haven't sent a gift to any of the 4/5 players mentioned by witt. Easiest thing would ve been to say 1 overlapped, it would be statistically in my favour if ever I was lying. In fact I got pretty lucky regarding this as none of my recipients are in witt's list and the odds of me nailing 2 people night 1 and 2 if ever I was lying would be terribly slim.
But hey, I guess you don't believe jessica klaus is in this game or that such a major character is a fakeclaim.

unvote vote mets you have been my real target for ages and I think I start having enough elements to make a full case about you tomorrow, that's why I'm asking for extra deadline to PCM.

[rishaed]

Hmm. . . I like the pace for the last few days. It would be nice to get an extension. I want to see Betikos case on Mets. If its convincing enough I might take a Mets claim/lynch into consideration. Lets just say I find the Mets/Betiko dispute interesting and possibly could lead to scum, if one of them slips up. I mean claiming a gifter in this game is easily verifiable, and frankly speaking quite hard to pull off. Why? b/c if you say your scum buddies got a gift, they verify and if you get lynched/NK'd and turn scum you've just exposed your scum buddies as well.

[Metsfanmax]

Hmm. . . I like the pace for the last few days. It would be nice to get an extension. I want to see Betikos case on Mets. If its convincing enough I might take a Mets claim/lynch into consideration. Lets just say I find the Mets/Betiko dispute interesting and possibly could lead to scum, if one of them slips up. I mean claiming a gifter in this game is easily verifiable, and frankly speaking quite hard to pull off. Why? b/c if you say your scum buddies got a gift, they verify and if you get lynched/NK'd and turn scum you've just exposed your scum buddies as well.

Sure, but the whole point of doing that is to prevent yourself from getting lynched in the first place. Yes, it's a bold move, but in a game like this with so many people doing so many things, I think the mafia have to be a bit bold if they're going to keep on top of things. Assuming betiko is indeed mafia, then he would be counting on us to make exactly the assumption you did, that mafia wouldn't even bother to try something like that.

As for the nature of the claim -- I'm not familiar enough with R/B's catalog to know how important Mrs. Claus is in the scheme of their hierarchy. But I could believe that she isn't in the game (especially if the way they allegedly put her in the game is just as a "vanilla" gifter).

[Metsfanmax]

BTW: I actually do support an extension. I'd like to get through more of this stuff with betiko, little witt, etc. before the day is over.

[betiko]

holly crap you gotta be kidding me! spent over an hour making met s case and i logged off and lost everything when i pressed send, grrrrrrrrrrrrr! I have to do it over again!!!

[betiko]

ok here we go again, managed to keep the quotes but not my comments, really pissed to do it over again, what an idiot, should ve saved it before pressing this damn send button!!
DAY 1

vote MoB for stealing all the presents D: see in the hands and on the back!

how do you even know you can steal presents?

Vote betiko for that massive slipup

now that you know i said I'm a gifter you might understand why rishaed's comment interested me and I wanted to learn more. met over reacts way too uch and I think it's suspicious.

care to explain how your slip is not bigger than mine mets?

It was already explained by others. You called out what was obviously a joke vote with something related to game mechanics, hinting that you know about the possibility of stealing gifts. Obviously stealing gifts is most likely a mafia/third party ability if it does exist.

That being said, I also admit that this mechanism is quite reasonable to conjecture about given what we have been told about the gifts, so it's possible you know nothing about it and were just speculating. So my vote is only half serious. But it was definitely something to keep in mind.

It's quite ridiculous that thinking that just because i'm asking rishaed to elaborate what he said and could be a slip would mean I know about this game mechanic.

You say maybe a D1 lynch is good, and then 1 post later vote for no lynch?

Maybe a D1 lynch is good, but somehow I guess I just don't have enough to go on right now to just send a random person to the wolves. I never like to compare any mafia game to another as I typically give everyone the benefit of doubt in D1 unless there is something that grabs my attention.

Nothing has grabbed my attention just yet, but I am still open for a D1 lynch if evidence arises.

How do you expect anything to grab your attention if we just call it quits and vote for no lynch??

I'd say he has succeeded. Just by the act of posting the no lynch vote, he has generated a conversation that we can potentially mine for information later. For example, your response to it will be noted, and as will my response to you, in a meta sense. Posting no lynch is not always just being defeatist and waiting for D2 to come; it can generate interesting results in the way people perceive it. Even if everyone voted no lynch, there would still be information there -- some of the people early on are more likely to be mafia, I would imagine, even if there's no way to be certain.

there you advocate that no lynch makes the game advance

I don't think we can get a claim before deadline.

vote no lynch

If that's the case, why bother voting no lynch?

there you have a problem with jonty voting no lynch when it's clearly more usefull than watching paint dry.

DAY 2

I don't want this to end up like day 1, and we have to lynch someone anyway today.

Alright, then how about this for a case: spiesr is Third Party.

Throwing me under the bus as soon as someone votes you eh? Well, at least your information is correct. I am a 3rd Party role. Not sure why there was so much of a bandwagon right after you guys came to the general consensus that there likely is not an SK in this game. (SK being the go to 3rd party role that is actually a threat to the town.) So, what, do you guys think I am cult or something? All the other common third party roles aren't exactly a direct threat to the town.

This is a strong argument. If no one is convinced that spiesr is a SK, then what do we gain by lynching him? The only thing I can think of is that it would validate the cop claim. Is that enough of a reason?

why is it a strong argument? not being convinced he is not a SK doesn't mean he is cleared from being one. with no other case on the table it seems pretty fair to put a maximum pressure on a third party whose life has much less value than a town's. You are not bringing up any other case, so why stop a constructive conversation? you are trying to deviate the discussion to... nothing!

I'd like to hear from soundman and to learn more about both role mechanics. I see no reason no to trust nendreel. he has a key role and everyone will have his eyes on him tonight. Spiesr didn't deny he's third party so nendreel is pretty much clear and can be trusted whenever he gets a cop result.

This is not clear at all. Even if he's right about spiesr, that doesn't clear him as town.

nendreel is either a natural cop (no one could use gifts on night 1) or he is bullshitting and is scum/third party buddies with spiesr and soundman. He would've outed all 3 of them on that move which seems very unnecesairy. Not impossible as it can't be proved, but it seems way too risky to me. And I think it's odd that you try to discredit him while trying to give more credit to spiesr, that's what scum would do.

Well this is interesting. My role is Heat Miser however I'm not a lyncher, I'm a survivor. I was told that my brother Cold Miser wishes me gone and is trying to lynch me. My goal is to survive till endgame (True survivor role, just with a twist) without him completing his mission (Or everyone loses). I have no special abilities of any kind and I wasn't told who the Cold Miser is. Now that I know I'd rather not give him the chance of killing me and fulfilling his WC. Vote Spiesr.

One says "Cold Miser," the other says "Snow Miser."

What do you expect from that "case" seriously? cold miser makes more sense if you are the heat miser and you didn't recheck your PM. This doesn't contradict his story at all.

Well this is interesting. My role is Heat Miser however I'm not a lyncher, I'm a survivor. I was told that my brother Cold Miser wishes me gone and is trying to lynch me. My goal is to survive till endgame (True survivor role, just with a twist) without him completing his mission (Or everyone loses). I have no special abilities of any kind and I wasn't told who the Cold Miser is. Now that I know I'd rather not give him the chance of killing me and fulfilling his WC. Vote Spiesr.

One says "Cold Miser," the other says "Snow Miser."

I still would like to know whether there was a slip here or not. It was brought up again after I pointed it out, and we did not get a real answer.

Bringing it back to this to stop other discutions actually usefull. what sort of answer could soundman possibly give you that could be usefull for building a case? seems like you are deviating again conversations for no usefull purposes.

people are all saying the same; go for a scum instead of a miser. and almost no one is putting pressure on the 2 cases here; edoc& mets.

There is no case against me, just your "scumdar." I saw an obvious discrepancy between what the two misers were claiming, and if it's innocuous then no problem, but to suggest it isn't worth checking out is ridiculous.

the obvious discrepancy is that one needs to kill the other and the other just needs to survive, it's quite strange flavourwise. They are enemies yet they kind of confir each other's story. Soundman calling him cold miser can't possibly break the nendreel->spiesr->soundman story.


DAY 3

Most of that week was night time. I'll add in some more concrete thoughts in a day or two, but I am persuaded by the arguments against betiko. I won't vote yet until I can explain myself better.

which are? None of your arguments stand, I have claimed and can prove more, we know nothing about you.

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

What? He never said that his gifts were stolen, at least as far as I can tell. He was asking if that had happened to anyone else. In fact, he's taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously but now doesn't seem to think that the person who "slipped" and revealed that ability is the one that has it?

you are skimming and clearly partial when it comes to make judgments about what I said.

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

betiko is jumping all over the place. edoc didn't say anything that wasn't obvious from reading Little Witt's post, but apparently it was enough to convince betiko to change his vote.

The only reason I'm not voting betiko at this point is that I think he's too experienced to just blatantly put himself out there like this (which admittedly can devolve into WIFOM) if he was scum, but FOS betiko.

It has been obvious though, he says he's been busy, been grounded, and when he does come in and post, all he says is sorry for the inactivity, I'll try to catch up and post something meaningful, which admittedly has been a little hard right now. I know this goes into a WIFOM argument, but there has been things he can throw his opinion to. In RL how I play is different than on CC, but that's because in Forums, posting activity is extremely important for everyone. You see a thread die because people read it and don't post anything. I am guilty of not posting anything of substance lately though. I must say that I haven't found a case strong enough through my rereads that I would be willing to post it. Which seems to be true of a lot of ppl right now. So I am willing to play to a vote the inactive case no matter what flak i get from it later. vote Witt. It might bring some life back into this thread.

Let's not pretend that this will generate meaningful activity. We form up a wagon on the inactive, he claims, probably VT or something else meaningless, and then we're back to square one. We either lynch him or we don't, and we have more information but it's unlikely to meaningfully advance the state of the game. People still won't really know what to do with their night actions, etc.

I'm fine with voting an inactive simply because there's nothing else to do, but I don't think that's the case here, given the "case" against you and my suspicions of betiko.

You did say before that you were convinced about my guiltyness yet you are still not starting the wagon on me. What is more suspicious, to be the first one throwing the stone, or to be waiting for someone else to do it? Oh, and this didn not generate meaningfull conversation at all! wagonning on inactives surely brings no info, and a claim, even vt is worthless! better sit and wait, throwing a hint on me without voting. Or wait, isn't that a bit scummy?

ok here's the thing. do we want witt replaced or given all what just happened we should make him claim? if he gets replaced would be good to have kanin back in the game, but if at some point someone wants to revive his former character it won't be possible (I guess jonty's role was much more important though).

It's not fair to ask him to be replaced against his will, unless he decides that he isn't up for the game. Given his obvious confusion, I'm willing to force a claim just to get things going, but I really don't think he's scum at this point.

I don't know, he seems ok with being replaced. he definitely realizes that he is in too much games for him to handle. why are you so sure he is not scum and you have much more doubts regarding nendreel for example?
witt can very likely be overplaying the noob card, he played much better in lovecraft.

I know it's a bit of metagaming but it just doesn't seem like a good long term strategy. Anyone who intentionally, overtly played the noob card to hide their mafia status would probably lose quite a bit of respect in the community.

if witt played the noob card that good, I don't know about you guys but he would win tons of respect from me. a very risky move and a great way to fool us all! Also you wanted him to claim being sure he was town, and all his nonsense on his first claim never lifted your eyebrow. why want him to claim then?

I'll be amused if someone counterclaims Santa.

like any other scum if ever witt is mafia and is desperately trying to pull out extra info for you guys.

I am unable to find n2 message but n1 I sent spiesr, rishaed, Kanin, jonty, and Mets a present I think I got your night mixed up Betiko I am very sure I sent you one n1 or n2 but n1 does not have your name in the message so I think it is n2. Sorry for that small confusion. These players can confirm for me on that and unvote.

You have just cast a very wide net. If any of those people didn't get a gift, I suppose that would be interesting, but it wouldn't be proof of anything because there might be some sort of blocking or redirecting mechanic in the works.

Anyone who refuses to unvote just to get me lynched I will get very suspicious on their town/scum side.

Well yes, but if you get lynched then your suspicion won't help us much ;-P

I seriously doubt that a roleblock would prevent someone from receiving a gift. In fact knowing that spiesr is third party, received a gift night 1 and got roleblocked night 1 by keener, he would be my first choice to confirm if he received a gift.

I'll be amused if someone counterclaims Santa.

the question is, if there is another santa should he counter claim? we would catch a scum for sure, but I don't like having santa in the open... even if we already have witt!
/quote]

Actually that is a good point. For all we know we'd just be catching another third party! So I'm not convinced Santa should counterclaim in that case.

I don't get your logic about catching a third party for all we know and saying that we couldn't get a scum there.

also, to all people who were supposed to receive a gift on night 1 by witt: don't come here and confirm. if one of you didn't receive it say it out loud, but I think it's better if you've received a gift to submarine for the moment and wait to see if one comes out and says he didn't receive anything. we don't want scum to know all players who have a gift!

That makes me very suspicious. You seem to want to make sure Little Witt isn't cleared, when he could possibly be lynched. Even though he mentioned five people who could clear his name you want them to be silent.

And for what, saving someone's gift? It seems far more important to me to save an innocent townie from being lynched, especially one who hands out gifts. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that a Mafia would make such a claim, and name five people (and you) who could easily disprove it.

You also changed your story about getting a gift the first day; first you had said you didn't get one. Then you say you did get a gift, you just didn't mention it because it wasn't a gift you could use. And now you have lost the PM that could clear up the confusion? Convenient. Important PMs like that I save until the end of the game.

I haven't read through the whole game yet, I still have some pages left, but you seem quick to cast suspicion on people from the beginning. Hmm....

Do we have anything else to go on today? No? Okay then.

vote betiko

If Little Witt is telling the truth about who he gives gifts to, and assuming Santa is not the only gift giver in the game, then does it really matter if the mafia knows who has gifts? They can't possibly take out all the people who have gifts in a reasonable amount of time, and for all anyone knows the people who got gifts so far are all VTs and so mafia would be doing themselves a disservice.

a VT with 2 gifts becomes a PR, so you guys are basically suggesting that outing all half PR maybe full PR is a good idea. You are even acusing me for wanting to filtrate as much as possible this info.

I've had my suspicions about betiko for a while now, and I don't see why I should trust his claim. By his own admission he's allegedly one of probably many gift givers in this game, so even if I'm wrong (which I doubt) we haven't lynched a power role.

Vote Betiko

lol so you'd rather lynch me for being 100% coherent all game, having the possibility to prove my claim by telling who I sent a gift to on night 1 and on night 2 rather than a 3rd party because I am probably one of many gifters?

I'd rather lynch you because I think you're scum. You're welcome to attempt to dissuade me by telling us who you sent a gift to, but obviously whether or not those people say they got gifts is not going to prove either way whether you're telling the truth or not.

your posts are each time more interesting mets.
Are you against an deadline extension mets?

No -- but at this point we have no confirmation that such an extension would happen, so I voted you as I am presently the most suspicious of you.

we don't know how many gifters there are, and witt is the main gifter if he's saying the truth. since he is outed he is probably scum's main target with nendreel/gustaf tonight. So if both me and witt are gifters, this will become extra complicated for town because we don't know if we have much more gifters left. According to you there are VTs in this game, and a gifter wouldn't be considered a PR? you would get rid of a PR before a third party because even according to me we are several gifters?

[betiko]

Hmm. . . I like the pace for the last few days. It would be nice to get an extension. I want to see Betikos case on Mets. If its convincing enough I might take a Mets claim/lynch into consideration. Lets just say I find the Mets/Betiko dispute interesting and possibly could lead to scum, if one of them slips up. I mean claiming a gifter in this game is easily verifiable, and frankly speaking quite hard to pull off. Why? b/c if you say your scum buddies got a gift, they verify and if you get lynched/NK'd and turn scum you've just exposed your scum buddies as well.

Sure, but the whole point of doing that is to prevent yourself from getting lynched in the first place. Yes, it's a bold move, but in a game like this with so many people doing so many things, I think the mafia have to be a bit bold if they're going to keep on top of things. Assuming betiko is indeed mafia, then he would be counting on us to make exactly the assumption you did, that mafia wouldn't even bother to try something like that.

As for the nature of the claim -- I'm not familiar enough with R/B's catalog to know how important Mrs. Claus is in the scheme of their hierarchy. But I could believe that she isn't in the game (especially if the way they allegedly put her in the game is just as a "vanilla" gifter).

so santa being a super gifter and his wife being a normal gifter doesn't make sense to you flavourwise? I've posted some videos earlier when the misers came out, and in that christmas special jessica claus is kind of the main character. All I have said is the truth all along and we know nothing about you. All your suspicions on me are pure wifom and you are always pulling the least plausible scenario just because it could exist.
I am willing to give you guys my gift recipients night 1&2, and if you look at the odds of me being right about it they're extremely thin. I could also tell you in advance who I send a gift to tonight and it would be verified the next morning. A gifter has way too many ways to backup his story.

[thechuck51]

I think Betiko makes a pretty strong case unvote vote metsfanmax

[Metsfanmax]

Hmm. . . I like the pace for the last few days. It would be nice to get an extension. I want to see Betikos case on Mets. If its convincing enough I might take a Mets claim/lynch into consideration. Lets just say I find the Mets/Betiko dispute interesting and possibly could lead to scum, if one of them slips up. I mean claiming a gifter in this game is easily verifiable, and frankly speaking quite hard to pull off. Why? b/c if you say your scum buddies got a gift, they verify and if you get lynched/NK'd and turn scum you've just exposed your scum buddies as well.

Sure, but the whole point of doing that is to prevent yourself from getting lynched in the first place. Yes, it's a bold move, but in a game like this with so many people doing so many things, I think the mafia have to be a bit bold if they're going to keep on top of things. Assuming betiko is indeed mafia, then he would be counting on us to make exactly the assumption you did, that mafia wouldn't even bother to try something like that.

As for the nature of the claim -- I'm not familiar enough with R/B's catalog to know how important Mrs. Claus is in the scheme of their hierarchy. But I could believe that she isn't in the game (especially if the way they allegedly put her in the game is just as a "vanilla" gifter).

so santa being a super gifter and his wife being a normal gifter doesn't make sense to you flavourwise? I've posted some videos earlier when the misers came out, and in that christmas special jessica claus is kind of the main character. All I have said is the truth all along and we know nothing about you. All your suspicions on me are pure wifom and you are always pulling the least plausible scenario just because it could exist.

My point is that if Jessica Claus is not in the game, then claiming her as just a gifter makes for a convenient mafia fakeclaim. I recognize that there's really no way to land on this either way; I was mainly saying that your claim of her character is not enough to convince me against my earlier suspicions of you.

I am willing to give you guys my gift recipients night 1&2, and if you look at the odds of me being right about it they're extremely thin. I could also tell you in advance who I send a gift to tonight and it would be verified the next morning. A gifter has way too many ways to backup his story.

None of these ways are legitimate proof, given that there are multiple gifters in the game as well as roleblockers, gift thieves, etc. Any of the people who you claimed to have sent gifts to could be mafia buddies just backing you up (see my earlier comment to rishaed -- it would be a bold play, but it wouldn't be a bad play if it bought you the town's trust until endgame).

As for the wall of text: finding something interesting to say about every one of my posts does not make for a coherent argument as to why I am mafia. I will respond to it but I don't have time for that at the moment; hopefully sometime in the next day or two.

[betiko]

1) it would be pretty stupid from me to claim a character so likely to be in the game and so important in rakin/bass christmas specials, so what you would have to give as argument there is that mafia have fakeclaims.

2) it would be pretty stupid from me again to take such risk and assure you I can tell you who I sent a gift on night 1 to, who I sent a gift on night 2 to and not saying it overlaps for at least one of them witt's gift recipients if I had to invent bullcrap. I would be giving myself the worse odds possible. I could back up my story with all you want being a gifter, even reaching 99,99% possibility that I am town you can always argue that there is a 0,01% chance that I got extremely lucky about everything. Witt saying something and pulling back what he said once i've said it was untrue (he confirmed he said something untrue) nevertheless still makes me your prime suspect.

we don't have a day or 2 as far as I know. You are not giving anything worthy regarding my case. Your argument is the following:
-I found many likely scumtells but it doesn't make you scum for sure
-You have many unlikely scenarios regarding myself so it doesn't clear me 100%

Yeah I guess it's pretty solid, town should go and lynch me and take your word.

[Little Witt]

Somebody asked me to explain my ability two pages back (forgot who it was after reading Betiko's mammoth post

I am able to send a max of 5 gifts per night minimum of 0 (haven't tested that part, only a guess) And I am only allowed to send 1 gift per person per night. So I can send you more gifts just it would be 1 per night so not to allow an unfair swarm of gifts and let that player take any power he or she wanted. I am unaware if I can send myself gifts. I hope I can (will pm mod on that) But I have been honest on who I've been naming for gift receivers. I only sent 1 gift n2 because I had forget about that and pcm had created an extension and I almost missed that so I sent a quick e-mail right before heading to bed and put the only name I could think of that I thought wouldn't do any harm. And that was Betiko.

Hope that clears some confusion up a bit.

[Gustaf Wasa]

just to be clear: I voted witt after he claimed he sent me a gift on night 1, which he did not (gustaf still doesn't get what a "gift" means in this game apparently)

Absolutely love your condescending tone, not just here but elsewhere too. Some spice there. But you should think about how it makes people look at you.

Of course I know what "gift" means as a game mechanic. What an odd thing, to insist on calling me ignorant, skimming etc in various ways. Because I voted for you? I seem to have made a bitter enemy there. Now, I have also pointed out - and I could call you dumb for not picking up on it, but I am much too polite - that you did receive something that you didn't mention, although I know that it isn't included in the game-mechanic term "gift", which I never said either.

Now here is how you make a point:

betiko did acknowledge receiving a 'lottery ticket'. It is/was, however, clearly not allowed to be traded in as part of the gift/present trade-in game mechanic, which Witt's claim clearly alluded to. So betiko wasn't lying in this case - and if we assume what they both claim to be true - whatever betiko received wouldn't have been from Witt anyway.

anamainiacks thinks that the gift giver cannot hand out a bonus like the one you received, betiko. I can buy that argument. And note that he made his point without making it personal, which is how it should be done.

and gustav, I'm not calling you dumb, but your case is.

betiko, what can I say.... Learn the Mafia manners.

You're skimming again the fact that there is a roleblocker, and that this roleblocker blocked you character last night, stealing isn't my only concern.

Wait - I would be skimming the instructions given by the game mod to such a degree that I don't bother to read the results of my character's night actions? On what do you base this amazing statement?

I'm Mrs Jessica Klaus, town gifter. do you want me to tell everyone who I sent gifts to on night 1 & 2 so you cut this crap?

It isn't crap to vote for someone. Again, the Mafia manners. They are a must.

well done town for blindly folowing gustaf who hasn't even finished reading the thread,

How do you know that? You might want to stop making statements about what I have read and haven't read, skimming, not thinking, making "dumb" statements, etc. I understand your temperature rose when I put a vote on you, but deal with it some other way.

Now, given that you voted for Little Witt even though you think he is town, just because you think his claim is "shitty", I might say it is wise to follow your own example. Even if you hadn't sounded scummy, trying to get townies lynched from day one with the discretion of a pitbull terrier, there can be benefits to getting rid of someone without being completely sure of his scumminess. You, in this case. The game's joie de jouer could only benefit.

[Gustaf Wasa]

I find it a sly move that betiko voted for Soundman. It looks like hes trying to draw the spiesr vote. i also felt Betiko was scummy before Little Witt was called out

That is probably exactly what he was going for.

And I will confirm that my role is cop, as nendreel revealed. Which he shouldn't have at that point, I think. But no matter. And yes, he found spiesr to be third party, as spiesr more or less confirmed, and after that he was roleblocked, to no one's surprise. If the Heat Miser/Cold Miser scenario is true, spiesr would indeed want the Cold Miser gone.


As for betiko's case against Metsfanmax. That was a long wall of text, but I must say I didn't find anything particularly scummy there. That he took the time to copy and paste a lot of posts might look impressive to some, but it doesn't make the case stronger - and betiko is hoping to save himself from a lynch, note.

So also to no one's surprise I'm sure, my vote on betiko stands. Let's lynch and learn.

[MoB Deadly]

I find it a sly move that betiko voted for Soundman. It looks like hes trying to draw the spiesr vote. i also felt Betiko was scummy before Little Witt was called out

That is probably exactly what he was going for.

That is very very interesting and one of the most outright scummiest things I've seen so far.

Ill be honest, I have not reviewed the entire case front to back and every little detail, but what I have gotten from the highlights, this sticks out the most to me.

disclaimer: my vote could possibly change upon fully reading the case, but as of right now I am leaning about 70/30 towards betiko

unvote vote betiko

[anamainiacks]

I personally found betiko's case against mets pretty weak. It looked a lot more like nitpicking on minor issues. I won't comment on all of them, because I'm pretty busy, but just a few that jumped at me initially:

vote MoB for stealing all the presents D: see in the hands and on the back!

how do you even know you can steal presents?

Vote betiko for that massive slipup

now that you know i said I'm a gifter you might understand why rishaed's comment interested me and I wanted to learn more. met over reacts way too uch and I think it's suspicious.

I hardly think mets was overreacting here. The way you phrased that sentence made it sound like you knew for a fact that a present stealing mechanic existed. Add to that the fact that it was still early on in the joke vote stage, throwing out a vote like mets did doesn't seem like an overreaction, but somewhere between a joke vote and an actual vote.

How do you expect anything to grab your attention if we just call it quits and vote for no lynch??

I'd say he has succeeded. Just by the act of posting the no lynch vote, he has generated a conversation that we can potentially mine for information later. For example, your response to it will be noted, and as will my response to you, in a meta sense. Posting no lynch is not always just being defeatist and waiting for D2 to come; it can generate interesting results in the way people perceive it. Even if everyone voted no lynch, there would still be information there -- some of the people early on are more likely to be mafia, I would imagine, even if there's no way to be certain.

there you advocate that no lynch makes the game advance

I don't think we can get a claim before deadline.

vote no lynch

If that's the case, why bother voting no lynch?

there you have a problem with jonty voting no lynch when it's clearly more usefull than watching paint dry.

For the first one - mets wasn't advocating a no lynch. He was saying that jonty casting a vote for no lynch "generated a conversation that we can potentially mine for information later", i.e. his act was useful in generating conversation, not that mets wanted a no lynch to happen.

For the second part - actually, using your analogy, jonty's vote was as good as announcing, "I'm watching the paint dry!" At that point in Day 1, we had less than 24 hours to the deadline, no person had more than 3 votes (9 required for lynch). It was definitely impossible for 6 people to suddenly change their mind to vote for a single person at that point. So yes, it was pretty useless (though there was no problem with it either).



I'd write more, but I'm short on time now. But in all, I do feel that this is similar to betiko's earlier case against rishaed... There wasn't much solid ground. And it would be pretty smart of scum to keep boasting that he can easily confirm his fake claim - while never having to do it. Vote betiko.


fastposted

[spiesr]

Hope that clears some confusion up a bit.

It does somewhat, thanks.

we don't know how many gifters there are, and witt is the main gifter if he's saying the truth. since he is outed he is probably scum's main target with nendreel/gustaf tonight. So if both me and witt are gifters, this will become extra complicated for town because we don't know if we have much more gifters left. According to you there are VTs in this game, and a gifter wouldn't be considered a PR? you would get rid of a PR before a third party because even according to me we are several gifters?

Interesting that you are now saying that the scum will be targeting gifters for the kill, whereas the assumption in prior Days was that they would avoid targeting those they believe are gifters in order to try to kill regular power roles.

[betiko]

I always play like a pitbull in any game gustaf, like it or not.
Yes, your case on me is dumb and that's the way it is, if for you playing mafia is about lynching someone because you don't like his manners well go ahead, I play to make my faction win first, and to have the game going so if it means poking people here or there I don't hesitate doing so. You have said a few inacuracies, sorry if that hurts your little feelings.
Yes, you acused me of not wanting to out all half PRs, because that is what gift recipients are has barely any consequences for you. But I guess if I had said the opposite you would've had a problem either way.
Again you are inventing stuff, and yes it is irritating. After witt's first claim, where he said he sent me a gift how on earth could I trust him? I've been keeping my vote on him because I thought it was important to have a few things cleared up before letting him go; that's why I wanted to wait for someone to say if witt lied about sending them a gift on night 1, he had it wrong with me already. Also I am still not sure I would've been told or not if ever someone sent a gift on night 2 to me. I am free to change my opinion regarding witt (even if I'm not 100% sure about him).
Nevertheless, you've put me in a situation where I had to quickly claim given the deadline and the votes piling up; then I saw that it was going to en with a possible split vote between me and witt. If witt is telling the truth we lose santa.
Again your logic fails here. If I was scum, my best interest would be to get santa killed. Thinking that he would most likely be who he says he is, and knowing that I am who I say I am, a town gifter, I had to quickly deviate votes on soundman who was probably the best acceptable loss for the game rather than both of our roles (mine and witt's).

Nendreel by revealing your role on day 2 didn't do a bad move at all. It's the only day where such role could be nothing else than a natural cop speaking out.

anyway go ahead, lynch and learn. me town gifter out now, tonight we probably get our santa or our cop killed, just hope a few people have 2 gifts, and if we do that not everyone is going to waste their action on the same person. next trade in will cost more gifts and you will have at least 1 lesser gifter.

the deadline is in a few hours from now, and you are about to make a big mistake. Stay clear headed gustaf and have a better analyze of the entire situation. You guys are not even giving a damn that I can backup my story. Let me know if you're gonna give me a chance, otherwise it's in town's interest for me not to reveal who has received gifts from me so far.

fastposted

[Little Witt]

And when I said I would send the auto gifts to townies did not mean I knew the townies names yet. I meant that to mean when they do show up I would grant them the auto gift to help snif the mafia out.

Fast posted

[betiko]

animaniacs; reread. I didn't say mets was advocating a no lynch; he was advocating the fact that voting no lynch is helpfull. next post he asked jonty why the hell he was voting no lynch which contradicted his previous post.

spiesr: we obviously didn't know about santa's role before; and someone handeling the equivalent of 2,5 PR per night and called santa has good chances of getting lnched. yeah I know, scummy to think so right?

anyway, I'm done arguing with you guys, seems like it's over for me and I have serious doubts that this can be won. Terrible reads all game from town seriously. Still didn't figure who the scum are, they are doing well but a few players sure are making this easy for them.

anyway, last thought: 2 known 3rd parties, 3 unfavorable night actions for town (gift stealing, roleblocking, killing). I doubt that scum can do all that and that the initial setting was 3 scums, 2 3rd parties and 11 town. If it's the case anyway, town will probably be down 5 townies tomorrow, i hope you will stop going for stupid lynches just because you don't like a game meta tomorrow.