Why are you a Feminist?

[DoomYoshi]

And remember: if a sentence has the word "but" in it, you should only take notice of the the words after "but".

This is why Jonesy should be Emperor of the Off Topics.


--Andy

Isn't he already?

[kentington]

There are a whole lot of dudes in here who seem to think they know better than women.

Define a whole lot.

[Neoteny]

The entirety of some number.

I mean, if you want to know if you are in that group, I would argue yes.

[kentington]

Thanks, I was wondering. Mind elaborating?

[Lootifer]

Hes just being all swarmy and ivory-towerish. I wouldnt worry.

@ Neo: We arent saying we know better than woman, we are merely stating our opinion on a subjective topic. Discounting our opinion just because we have a dong between our legs is far more sexist than men trying to assert opinions on feminism.

ps: by our i mean all the people you are criticizing; I havent actually voiced an opinion. Im a pragmatist much like BBS in this case.

[Juan_Bottom]

I consider men to be less worth than women but also more competent than women. Where does that put me? Male chauvinst or feminist?

arsehole.

I was thinking more like "Realist".

That just assures them that you are a total male chauvinist.
[ramble]
Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause. I agree women should have equal rights and be able to vote. I agree that they should have an equal chance at being hired. But I have seen feminist women verbally attack other women who didn't work but stayed home and raised kids. These outspoken ones may be a minority, but from any feminist I have met it seems to be a constant. Those that I have met also tend to hate men or hold them in a negative light. This creates a poor image for those of us who aren't "in" with them and makes us lean away from them.

The thing that bothers me the most is that there are a lot of passive men and women out there and they both get made fun of by their own gender. [/ramble]

Describing yourself as a Feminist just means that you don't think women should be treated like doormats. You believe in the equality of the sexes. That women should be free to choose their own path.

It doesn't mean that you hate men or women.

Clearly men are more able at almost all aspects of life. If you want someone to cook the best food, chop the most wood, figure out the theory of relativity, fight for you, whatever it is, a man can do it better than a woman. That's not how I want it to be, it's not a wishfull thinking thing, it's just what I see when I look at our society.

Yeah, women should be thankful that big strong men helped them achieve Suffrage, considering that they were too frail and dainty to help themselves.

How about reading it this way though:

Clearly white men are more able at almost all aspects of life. If you want someone to cook the best food, chop the most wood, figure out the theory of relativity, fight for you, whatever it is, a white man can do it better than any other. That's not how I want it to be, it's not a wishfull thinking thing, it's just what I see when I look at our society.

Same difference?

[chang50]

Some of the most strident opponents of gender equality have been female in my experience.

[Juan_Bottom]

Some of the most strident opponents of gender equality have been female in my experience.

"Take it easy on me, I'm a girl!"

[Funkyterrance]

To loosely quote Jerry Seinfeld: "How can I be a male chauvinist? I like women!"

[jonesthecurl]

Some of the most strident opponents of gender equality have been female in my experience.

Queen Victoria was agin it.

Doesn't make her right.

[Neoteny]

Hes just being all swarmy and ivory-towerish. I wouldnt worry.

@ Neo: We arent saying we know better than woman, we are merely stating our opinion on a subjective topic. Discounting our opinion just because we have a dong between our legs is far more sexist than men trying to assert opinions on feminism.

ps: by our i mean all the people you are criticizing; I havent actually voiced an opinion. Im a pragmatist much like BBS in this case.

Well, "we" are saying that we know better than women. For example, here:

Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

I don't care to take a tally of dudes who says things like "men are more competent than women" and compare the number to those who are completely weirded out by mansplaining, but I'm willing to bet it's roughly 50/50. Or worse. From a practical standpoint, would it be counterproductive to be more or less defensive when faced with that ratio? We don't even need any ivory or towers to do the math here. In my experience, if we are challenging people and forcing them to fall back on comments about tone rather than the content of our message, then we are doing something right. These doin-it-wrong feminists are seeing a swelling in support, much like the recent atheists who were also hurting their cause while broadening their base and standing up for what they thought was right. Not that there is any equivalence there (and atheists have their own sexism problems).

What's really weird is that a lot of these shrewish feminists are completely ok with dongs. Indeed, many have successful personal relationships with dong-holders. It might seem strange that these women find men who treat them as equals and recognize that society tends to treat the genders unevenly. Most of these guys recognize that they possess a certain amount of privilege, and that the number one thing to do when discussing sexism is to shut the f*ck up for a second and listen. The second thing is to shut the f*ck up a little more. Maybe not even offer an opinion. It's hard to do, and I've failed to do it in this thread, but I tried. I really did. But the minute, the very second, we think we know what it's like to live in a world that privileges traits we do not possess, when we think we know better for women, or blacks, or whomever than they do, is the time we need to step back and ask ourselves if we really do. Do we really? The answer is actually "no." So it's time to shut the f*ck up some more. Feminism, like any movement, carries a diversity of opinion (what's the fallacy when you attribute to an entire population the traits of a few?), some who are more aggressive, some who aren't. Some who actually hate men, some who don't. There are so many voices trying to find the right way in any movement, and who are we to sit here with our dongs in our hands and nod solemnly at the observation that feminists are going too far? Maybe they've got this.

Maybe they've got this.

For what it's worth, I've totally stolen the "shut the f*ck up" bit from Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown. She's hilarious.

How the HELL can you presume to describe yourself as a feminist, Freddie? Like, how the f*ck do you listen to two women talking about an experience, of feminism, and confirming with each other that they’ve both had similar experiences, and write a post about how they are not being considerate enough to men, and still sign off as a fucking feminist man at the end of the day? You’re not. You are not a feminist. You have, actually, nothing to contribute to feminist discourse. Because, still, the experiences of women are less important to you than how eager those women are to accomodate your personal fucking boner. You want to be a feminist, Freddie? Listen closely, because I’m about to tell you how:

SHUT. THE f*ck. UP.

I mean it. SHUT THE f*ck UP, Freddie. Shut the f*ck up and let the big girls talk. Because we know way more about this than you. And every time you want to pitch in with an observation? Shut the f*ck up a little bit harder. And maybe, after a few years or decades or whatever, you might have absorbed enough from listening to people with actual feminist insight (possibly related to their actually being women) to contribute productively to the conversation. But, in the meantime, actual feminists are going to get a lot more done, simply by virtue of not having to listen to the ungodly noise that comes out of your mouth. Truly, Freddie: You should shut the f*ck up. Shutting the f*ck up is, in fact, the biggest contribution you can make to the feminist cause.

[john9blue]

gillipig is right from an evolutionary perspective. women are more valuable than men. a society can lose 90% of its men and keep going. not so with women.

There are a whole lot of dudes in here who seem to think they know better than women.

yeah. reminds me of those crazy woman suffragettes who thought they knew better than the men.

[Funkyterrance]

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

I don't care to take a tally of dudes who says things like "men are more competent than women" and compare the number to those who are completely weirded out by mansplaining, but I'm willing to bet it's roughly 50/50. Or worse. From a practical standpoint, would it be counterproductive to be more or less defensive when faced with that ratio? We don't even need any ivory or towers to do the math here. In my experience, if we are challenging people and forcing them to fall back on comments about tone rather than the content of our message, then we are doing something right. These doin-it-wrong feminists are seeing a swelling in support, much like the recent atheists who were also hurting their cause while broadening their base and standing up for what they thought was right. Not that there is any equivalence there (and atheists have their own sexism problems).

What's really weird is that a lot of these shrewish feminists are completely ok with dongs. Indeed, many have successful personal relationships with dong-holders. It might seem strange that these women find men who treat them as equals and recognize that society tends to treat the genders unevenly. Most of these guys recognize that they possess a certain amount of privilege, and that the number one thing to do when discussing sexism is to shut the f*ck up for a second and listen. The second thing is to shut the f*ck up a little more. Maybe not even offer an opinion. It's hard to do, and I've failed to do it in this thread, but I tried. I really did. But the minute, the very second, we think we know what it's like to live in a world that privileges traits we do not possess, when we think we know better for women, or blacks, or whomever than they do, is the time we need to step back and ask ourselves if we really do. Do we really? The answer is actually "no." So it's time to shut the f*ck up some more. Feminism, like any movement, carries a diversity of opinion (what's the fallacy when you attribute to an entire population the traits of a few?), some who are more aggressive, some who aren't. Some who actually hate men, some who don't. There are so many voices trying to find the right way in any movement, and who are we to sit here with our dongs in our hands and nod solemnly at the observation that feminists are going too far? Maybe they've got this.

Maybe they've got this.

For what it's worth, I've totally stolen the "shut the f*ck up" bit from Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown. She's hilarious.

How the HELL can you presume to describe yourself as a feminist, Freddie? Like, how the f*ck do you listen to two women talking about an experience, of feminism, and confirming with each other that they’ve both had similar experiences, and write a post about how they are not being considerate enough to men, and still sign off as a fucking feminist man at the end of the day? You’re not. You are not a feminist. You have, actually, nothing to contribute to feminist discourse. Because, still, the experiences of women are less important to you than how eager those women are to accomodate your personal fucking boner. You want to be a feminist, Freddie? Listen closely, because I’m about to tell you how:

SHUT. THE f*ck. UP.

I mean it. SHUT THE f*ck UP, Freddie. Shut the f*ck up and let the big girls talk. Because we know way more about this than you. And every time you want to pitch in with an observation? Shut the f*ck up a little bit harder. And maybe, after a few years or decades or whatever, you might have absorbed enough from listening to people with actual feminist insight (possibly related to their actually being women) to contribute productively to the conversation. But, in the meantime, actual feminists are going to get a lot more done, simply by virtue of not having to listen to the ungodly noise that comes out of your mouth. Truly, Freddie: You should shut the f*ck up. Shutting the f*ck up is, in fact, the biggest contribution you can make to the feminist cause.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you need be a woman to truly understand feminism? I'm guessing a woman probably has a better initial grasp of the subject but to imply that a man is incapable of empathizing is a bit too elusive.
As a male I can accept the fact that any given women and any given man put in a specific role will fulfill that role based on their personal skills and abilities and nothing more. Sex doesn't enter into it. The problem is that when I conclude that a particular woman is less fit for a role than a particular man I am in danger of being labelled(unfairly) a sexist. I may be a sexist, there's no way for me to really know for sure but I can at least fathom what a true feminist might be and could quite possibly achieve this status in due time.
As far as "accommodating of someone's boner", I take this to say that the man in question can't consider a discussion about women without considering the matter of sex and is therefore disadvantaged? This is somewhat unfair since the very same thing happens when conversing with a man, only it's same-sex insecurities/interference. So the obvious conclusion is that everyone should just STFU about everything? That doesn't sound very progressive or productive to me.
In a way I feel that the whole STFU stance is in itself anti-feminist as it implies a basic difference in thought processes i.e. as a man you can't fully understand.

[john9blue]

so you think men and women are totally equal?

i thought you were a biologist?

[Funkyterrance]

so you think men and women are totally equal?

i thought you were a biologist?

Who me? Physically speaking in reference to brain function and such I think we are quite possibly totally equal, aside from maybe maternal instincts? Physically speaking overall, obviously not. However, I don't see how the physical differences would enter into the ability to fully understand feminism.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

a society can lose 90% of its men and keep going. not so with women.

True to a certain extent, however it invites a whole slew of problems. Cheetahs are pretty notorious for having a high rate of birth defects and other problems; they almost went extinct and iirc it's theorized that they went through a genetic bottleneck, and some of the evidence supporting this is that all cheetah sperm is fucked up, suggesting that the surviving males passed on their bad genes.

/themoreyouknow

-TG

[thegreekdog]

mansplaining

Mansplaining?

I'm virtually indifferent to the feminism. I cannot speak for others and I have nothing to offer other than my own personal perspective. As far as I'm concerned women should have the same opportunities as men in all things. As far as I'm concerned, they do have the same opportunities as men in all things (for the most part, since I guess they don't have an opportunity to play in the National Football League - perhaps BK would happily be a jock-sniffer in that instance).

My wife is a successful attorney who is probably paid more than her male counterparts (not for any other reason than she's better at what she does than they are).
My female co-workers are successful or unsuccesful, but that has nothing to do with their gender.
My mother was a succesful nurse and chose to stay at home with her children until we went to high school.

I suspect there are people (in this thread even) who don't think that women are generally as intelligent, mentally capable, or phyiscally capable as men. I think they will be burned by those types of thoughts in the future because they will end up underestimating a woman or not hiring a woman who is better qualified than a man.

That being said, I don't think the government needs to mandate special treatment or even pass a proposed law calling for equal pay in a disguised attempt to score points with women.

I recall a quote from West Wing regarding a fake Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution:

Ainsley Hayes (explaining why she does not support the Equal Rights Amendment): "Because it's humiliating. A new amendment we vote on declearing that I am equal under the law to a man. I am mortified to discover there's reason to believe I wasn't before. I am a citizen of this country. I am not a special subset in need of your protection. I do not have to have my rights handed down to me by a bunch of old, white, men."

All that being said (and quoted), I'm indifferent. If Congress wants to pass a law that calls for equal pay, that's fine by me. Go ahead. I'm pretty confident it will be an ineffective law, at best. If feminists want to rail against the lack of women in Congress or the White House, go ahead. Find some quality candidates to run in the next election. I'll vote for the best candidate, not the best female candidate. And people who vote for a candidate because he's a man are being not only chauvinist, but stupid. If I told you Ms. Candidate would do a better job than Mr. Candidate and you vote for Mr. Candidate, you're stupid. If I told you that Ms. Employee had a better resume than Mr. Employee and you hired Mr. Employee, you're stupid.

[kentington]

Well, "we" are saying that we know better than women. For example, here:

Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

Yes, I would say people have said this same thing about any organization. The Tea Party, the democrats, the republicans, North Koreans, KKK, Black Panthers, and many more.

So, that makes my statement wrong somehow?

In that sentence I am not saying I know better than all women. I am saying that movement is becoming less effective, in my opinion.

As far as the other situations, that I listed in my post, those were experiences that I have witnessed or my wife has been a first party in. I also stated that it may be the minority, but that it is the only representation that I have seen.

[BigBallinStalin]

Describing yourself as a Feminist just means that you don't think women should be treated like doormats. You believe in the equality of the sexes. That women should be free to choose their own path.

It doesn't mean that you hate men or women.

JB is marketing Feminism 4.0 or 3.0---I forget which wave it is. The earlier waves received a lot of flak because they ultimately advocated for inequality and sometimes radical positions, which were simply ridiculous. With Feminism 3.0, it's unnecessary to even support such a movement because of its history. If you're against Feminism 3.0, it's not the case that you're against women or equal rights--of course, the advocates for Feminism 3.0 would say otherwise; perhaps that tactic is part of the marketing plan too. Who knows.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hes just being all swarmy and ivory-towerish. I wouldnt worry.

@ Neo: We arent saying we know better than woman, we are merely stating our opinion on a subjective topic. Discounting our opinion just because we have a dong between our legs is far more sexist than men trying to assert opinions on feminism.

ps: by our i mean all the people you are criticizing; I havent actually voiced an opinion. Im a pragmatist much like BBS in this case.

Well, "we" are saying that we know better than women. For example, here:

Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

"'Honestly, I think US drone strikes have gone too far and are now hurting the US' own cause."

Obviously, this opinion means that I know better than all women--not the female US foreign policymakers and analysts, not the male ones, just women... because--according to Neotenian logic--that's what happens whenever someone criticizes a movement/strategy.


That doesn't make sense, Neoteny.

[Neoteny]

Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

[Funkyterrance]

Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

It's that it's another of these subjects that has become icky in it's far too easy to "overstep", resulting in prickling of all sorts. I take the stance of "back off, buddy" to imply that the subject requires special treatment, which doesn't sit well with the notion of equality. What's wrong with talking shop about these kinds of issues just like everything else?
I just can't say I ever find a conversation emotional enough to tell someone their opinion is not desired. I just find this to be a separatist attitude.

[BigBallinStalin]

Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Your position doesn't make sense. You're not thinking clearly about it. If you adjust it, I might agree.

[Funkyterrance]

Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Your position doesn't make sense. You're not thinking clearly about it. If you adjust it, I might agree.

Let me speak for Neoteny for a moment like I might speak for a woman...
Maybe he's arguing "If you ignore it, it will go away."?

[BigBallinStalin]

Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Your position doesn't make sense. You're not thinking clearly about it. If you adjust it, I might agree.

Let me speak for Neoteny for a moment like I might speak for a woman...
Maybe he's arguing "If you ignore it, it will go away."?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... d#p4061005