Labyrinth [Quenched]

[nolefan5311]

Just for clarification, Promotheus himself can't attack the slave entrances, it only allows the entrances to be attacked by adjacent regions, right?

[nolefan5311]

And [Moved] back to the Main Foundry Workshop, but the GP stamp will be removed as changes have been made.

[koontz1973]

Just for clarification, Promotheus himself can't attack the slave entrances, it only allows the entrances to be attacked by adjacent regions, right?

That is what I am trying to do. So all slave entrances cannot be attacked unless you hold Promotheus. And by not holding a slave entrance, you lose the game. Because of this, I lowered the neutrals to 20.

[nolefan5311]

Ok, cool.

[koontz1973]

So, will that work or not?, and how is the wording in the legend? Will make all changes suggested to the wording today or as soon as you come up with it if mine is not OK.

[nolefan5311]

I will take a closer look this evening when I'm off work.

[koontz1973]

Just asking, but why was the GP stamp removed from this? I just tweaked the GP a tad, like I will have to right till the end so removing it seems a little excessive. If the tweak is the reason, then I will go back to the original version.

[nolefan5311]

Excessive? It's not a punishment or anything, it just has to go back through GP scrutiny. It's not as if you tweaked a bonus zone or anything, you completely removed the winning condition and instead instituted a losing condition. I don't imagine it will take much to get it back, but since changes were made it will have to be looked at again. And simply losing the stamp for a brief moment shouldn't be enough for you to revert it to the way it was because I do like this new element more than the original version.

[koontz1973]

Fine. But I still think it a tad excessive.

[nolefan5311]

Does anyone see any issues with the new GP adjustments? Going to leave it up for a couple of days, see if any issues arise, then we can go ahead and get it re-stamped.

[AndyDufresne]

It has been a while since I have really dug into this map. In regards to the legend, I want to make sure I am understanding the mechanics of three items:

#1. For Slave Entrances, being 'fed to the lions' is a losing condition? It is not really clear on the map if so, or if it is just theme flavor.

#2. Aeolus and Gaia Spears, when you say 'they bombard their regions,' do you mean they can only bombard one another?

#3. When you say 'Sirens can't attack +2 each', do you really mean something like 'Siren can't attack. +2 each.' ?

===========

Also, in terms of the legend, things are kind of scrunched and run together. It might be worthwhile to consider expanding the legend up a little bit, by slightly reducing the size of the fire numbers above it. They stand out quite bit already, and slightly shrunk I don't think would have much of an impact on visibility or clarity. This may allow an extra touch of space in between each bullet item in the legend. And since the legend is chocked full of items, it is something I'll probably be coming back to again and again (more so than say a standard bonus legend).

Keep up the good work.


--Andy

[koontz1973]

It has been a while since I have really dug into this map. In regards to the legend, I want to make sure I am understanding the mechanics of three items:

#1. For Slave Entrances, being 'fed to the lions' is a losing condition? It is not really clear on the map if so, or if it is just theme flavor.

This is one of the new GP elements that I bunged in recently to spice up the map. It is not very clear but I am waiting on Nole for better wording.

#2. Aeolus and Gaia Spears, when you say 'they bombard their regions,' do you mean they can only bombard one another?

Each spear has a glow and is surrounded by squares that it can bombard. I have not been able to make this any clearer than it is so if you have a suggestion, then let me hear it.

#3. When you say 'Sirens can't attack +2 each', do you really mean something like 'Siren can't attack. +2 each.' ?

Plural used as there are two of them.

===========

Also, in terms of the legend, things are kind of scrunched and run together. It might be worthwhile to consider expanding the legend up a little bit, by slightly reducing the size of the fire numbers above it. They stand out quite bit already, and slightly shrunk I don't think would have much of an impact on visibility or clarity. This may allow an extra touch of space in between each bullet item in the legend. And since the legend is chocked full of items, it is something I'll probably be coming back to again and again (more so than say a standard bonus legend).

Keep up the good work.


--Andy

Might be worth while to look at this. Will get it done as soon as Nole gives me the wording for the new conditions.

[AndyDufresne]

[

#2. Aeolus and Gaia Spears, when you say 'they bombard their regions,' do you mean they can only bombard one another?

Each spear has a glow and is surrounded by squares that it can bombard. I have not been able to make this any clearer than it is so if you have a suggestion, then let me hear it.

Ah, I didn't even really notice the outline, since all regions are outlined (essentially, by black), and I didn't think of much of the colors really---since most other aspects denoting things on the map are done by icons on regions.

The way you did Medusa's gaze I think is much clearer, but since you have some regions in both her gaze and in the bombard area, it makes that difficult. Anyways, Medusa's gaze I think is distinct since the element is once again on the region (almost like a 'colored icon'), instead of just around it.

--Andy

[nolefan5311]

Here's what I've come up with so far...

The introductory paragraph needs work. "Forced into the labyrinth to fight other gladiators, you discover you are not the only ones inside...". This sentence doesn't really make sense. I'm forced into the labyrinth to fight others, but I discover I'm not the only one inside? And then, "Defeat Monsters, find weapons and food while making your way to the only way out - Prometheus" needs to be removed as Prometheus is no longer the winning condition...

Something like, "Upon entering the labyrinth, you discover more than you bargained for (needs work, I admit). Defeat monsters, find food, and use the weapons at your disposal to vanquish both foe and obstacle to emerge victorious", takes up less space and is more fitting to the changes you made. That needs some work though.

Have you thought about maybe putting a box or something around the individual legend explanations, or finding some way to combine the two Medusa explanations and two Siren's explanations?

Andy is right that the spear definition is confusing. I understand it's based on the outlined boxes, but this is pretty confusing. I think you need to change this somehow (maybe put the same color tint on the inside of the bombard boxes?).

Also, I suggest changing the wording for Prometheus to something like this..."Failure to hold a slave entrance results in immediate death. Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack". I think that takes up less space and is very concise in the requirement.

[koontz1973]

Spears now have a glow like Medusa. Removed the targets from the Medusa glow territs as these are killer neutrals. Only if you are trying to kill someone would you ever use it and with the losing condition and conditional border being in, this can now no longer be done.

Have you thought about maybe putting a box or something around the individual legend explanations, or finding some way to combine the two Medusa explanations and two Siren's explanations?

Boxes look silly, believe me, I tried early on when getting the layout sorted. How do you combine a positive (bonus) with a negative(killer or decay). From what I see, cannot be done as both have separate symbols and meaning.

Also, I suggest changing the wording for Prometheus to something like this..."Failure to hold a slave entrance results in immediate death. Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack". I think that takes up less space and is very concise in the requirement.

More space and sounds crap. But it has gone in modified. Just give it a check over.

Andy is right that the spear definition is confusing. I understand it's based on the outlined boxes, but this is pretty confusing. I think you need to change this somehow (maybe put the same color tint on the inside of the bombard boxes?).

You stamped it. But will have a look at it tonight. Nothing worth watching on the Olympics tonight.

Will work on the legend tonight, but expect the layout to be similar to what it is now.
Smaller grid letters and numbers. Freed up all of 8 pixels but that could be enough.

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

Have you thought about maybe putting a box or something around the individual legend explanations, or finding some way to combine the two Medusa explanations and two Siren's explanations?

Boxes look silly, believe me, I tried early on when getting the layout sorted. How do you combine a positive (bonus) with a negative(killer or decay). From what I see, cannot be done as both have separate symbols and meaning.

I don't know what you mean. Something to make the legend more organized is all I was suggesting.

Also, I suggest changing the wording for Prometheus to something like this..."Failure to hold a slave entrance results in immediate death. Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack". I think that takes up less space and is very concise in the requirement.

More space and sounds crap. But it has gone in modified. Just give it a check over.

Sounds crap, as in not as cool enough or something? Again, Not really sure what you mean. It needs to be made clear that Prometheus being held is a condition of attacking a slave entrance, and that losing your slave entrance is a losing condition. If you've got something better than by all means...

Andy is right that the spear definition is confusing. I understand it's based on the outlined boxes, but this is pretty confusing. I think you need to change this somehow (maybe put the same color tint on the inside of the bombard boxes?).

You stamped it. But will have a look at it tonight. Nothing worth watching on the Olympics tonight.

Did you not fix this already with the glow in the boxes? And shouldn't L9 spear be able to bombard L12 food?

And I will make sure to wait until the last possible moment to stamp in the future

[koontz1973]

You are right about the food. Will add.
Medusa has a bonus and also is mentioned for the killer neutral. How can you combine these two elements together into one coherent sentence that makes sense? With the boxes, I had them in at the start and worked on them for a while. From straight line boxes to using columns to split it all up. Nothing worked or took up to much space.
Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?
Is the legend now not clear over the conditional border? Adding this part...

Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack

I have stated the losing condition as you worded it as that is great, but to add this last part seems like over kill. I have stated that you cannot attack them till you hold him so why add the adjacent region part?

[nolefan5311]

Medusa has a bonus and also is mentioned for the killer neutral. How can you combine these two elements together into one coherent sentence that makes sense? With the boxes, I had them in at the start and worked on them for a while. From straight line boxes to using columns to split it all up. Nothing worked or took up to much space.

I will try to come up with something. Really just depends on what you're willing to do as far as space in the legend is concerned.

Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?

I know what it means, but fresh eyes might be needed. Andy, what do you think? Is it pretty clear now? koontz, how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP? I don't think they add anything particularly unique to the map and at this point are just adding more confusion then they're worth. And it would free up more legend space...lol

Is the legend now not clear over the conditional border? Adding this part...
Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack. I have stated the losing condition as you worded it as that is great, but to add this last part seems like over kill. I have stated that you cannot attack them till you hold him so why add the adjacent region part?

I agree with you, like your wording better.

[AndyDufresne]

[

Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?

I know what it means, but fresh eyes might be needed. Andy, what do you think? Is it pretty clear now? koontz, how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP? I don't think they add anything particularly unique to the map and at this point are just adding more confusion then they're worth. And it would free up more legend space...lol

I won't comment on whether the spears are worthy gameplay additions or not, since I don't really know. But I think making the spear regions have a glow is probably good enough. I think it is more intuitive now than it previously was.

In regards to icons, have you considered adjusting the sword X to a single sword per region? It may clear up any other confusion when the sword regions are intermixed in spear regions, since they are obviously very different from a mechanics point of view, but in terms of reality (and a random player hopping into a game on this map) spears and swords are both weapons (a la Colosseum map's use of multiple weapons like trident, sword, etc, sort of).


--Andy

[koontz1973]

I will try to come up with something. Really just depends on what you're willing to do as far as space in the legend is concerned.

Thanks.
Will try anything. Never had a problem with trying new things and you might come up with something I had not thought of.

how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP

No reason to do it just yet. Many more maps have more complicated GP than this one.

I agree with you, like your wording better.

See, we can work together.

In regards to icons, have you considered adjusting the sword X to a single sword per region

Will be done.

[IcePack]

How did I miss this map! I will look tonight and give comments. This is one that I feel is right up my alley

IcePack

[nolefan5311]

how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP

No reason to do it just yet. Many more maps have more complicated GP than this one.

It's not that they're overly complicating things, I think I just like the map better without them. They just seem a little quirky and out of place. The sirens and Medusa are definitely Greek mythology related, but spears aren't necessarily, and they seem to have more attack power than either the Sirens or Medusa.

I agree with you, like your wording better.

See, we can work together.

Did you ever doubt we could?

[koontz1973]

How did I miss this map! I will look tonight and give comments. This is one that I feel is right up my alley

IcePack

Thanks IcePack. Here is the latest one for you. Make any suggestions you want about everything.

Single sword.
Legend spaced out better.
Added the missing spear glow.

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

The spacing in the legend looks really good.

[AndyDufresne]

The spacing in the legend looks really good.

Yeah, I think so too.


--Andy