Psychology Mafia ~ Game Over, Mafia Victory

[zimmah]

it's pretty weird that out of all people edoc chose to target me. yes, i'm not a noob, but out of these players i may be the easiest target to frame.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 6&start=75 page 6.

1) vodean asks for support for a massclaim. DiM is the first one to respond possitively. at that point, i was still against it. strike was strongly against it, and / was neutral towards it. (while now he seems to join the general opinion and seems to be against it as well, but since he basically allready claimed 3rd party, and people seem to believe that claim, it doesn't really matter).

2) / is the first one to offer a solution to effectively massclaim, but his solution lacks one detail, who goes first. (the detail i filled in with a random list, and vodean filled in by going first. apperantly, i get called out for it though.)

3) safari did not really state his opinion until after edoc called me out for it and several pages of discussion happened. he seemed to be quite neutral about it too, taking a strong stand only AFTER multiple other persons have voices their opinion. (hiding behind other peoples backs) same with campin bassically, he's also mostly hiding behind other peoples opinions.

4) i basically ask edoc a question and he seems to feel attacked or something and the whole thing escalated into this.

also note, dim has been rather silent in this whole last few pages of discussion.

therevore, unvote vote DiM for being the first one to fully support vodean, and hiding from discussion afterwards, letting me get all the attention.

[safariguy5]

Check the times, I'm at work and away for 8+ hours at a time. The discussion about massclaiming mostly occurred when I was offline. By the time I got back online, several people had already discussed why it wasn't a good idea.

[zimmah]

Check the times, I'm at work and away for 8+ hours at a time. The discussion about massclaiming mostly occurred when I was offline. By the time I got back online, several people had already discussed why it wasn't a good idea.

You did post, but did not Voice your opinion in it, suggesting you was fine with it or at least neutral towards it, or waiting for others to take stand so you could play it save.

That leaves a big hole in your defense, and why did you even feel the need to defend yourself? I was just posting what happened that time when vodean suggested a mass claim and the events that happened shortly thereafter.

[edocsil]

it's pretty weird that out of all people edoc chose to target me.

I expect Vodean to be an idiot on occasion. He is a good player, but he makes mistakes on occasion. DiM is new to this game as well and has show he willing to follow another player's lead. This is out of your META, you are a better player then this. You have been playing a long time and I don't think you make uncalculated moves, or fail to think through your actions before you make them. If nothing else, see this case as some sign of respect.

[strike wolf]

it's pretty weird that out of all people edoc chose to target me.

I expect Vodean to be an idiot on occasion. He is a good player, but he makes mistakes on occasion. DiM is new to this game as well and has show he willing to follow another player's lead. This is out of your META, you are a better player then this. You have been playing a long time and I don't think you make uncalculated moves, or fail to think through your actions before you make them. If nothing else, see this case as some sign of respect.

yes Vodean is definitely a much better player than when she left the site a couple years ago. Still makes some mistakes but much much improved. Zimmah had a point about safari though. Safari did disappear for a few days while the most intense conversation about whether to lynch or no lynch happened. But I can hardly say he was the only one. LoVo appearead a bit late in it, Pancake and you, edoc, as well. Now Dim has kind of disappeared. Zimmah makes a better point about Campin. He does seem to be lurking a bit. I don't know Campin's meta though.

I thought Dim was kind of an odd choice for you but I guess that's just the feelings of "he was in support of something you yourself were helping along"

[DiM]

i haven't disappeared. i've had a couple of full days at work and didn't really have much time to analyse and post as i would have wanted to.
if you look at my activity i have just 2 or 3 posts in mafia games in the last couple of days which is waaaaaaaay lower than usual.

anyway, i was in favour of the mass claim and even suggested we make a list and do this organized. but then somebody said there are plenty of emotions available for mafia to fake claim and upon checking that was indeed true. so the idea was no longer good so i dropped the subject.

i have read mos of what was written and at the moment i'm kinda torn. on one hand i understand zimmah for trying to take action and doing something despite his plan not being the best one (i tend to do that sometimes) and on the other hand i agree with the others that zimmah was fishing a bit too hard for roles.

if zimmah's intention is to get things rolling then one way would be for us to vote him and get a claim. he might not like it but it's better than nothing.
also i think he's at L-2 after /'s vote.

[DiM]

oh and i forgot to unvote vodean

[zimmah]

it's pretty weird that out of all people edoc chose to target me.

I expect Vodean to be an idiot on occasion. He is a good player, but he makes mistakes on occasion. DiM is new to this game as well and has show he willing to follow another player's lead. This is out of your META, you are a better player then this. You have been playing a long time and I don't think you make uncalculated moves, or fail to think through your actions before you make them. If nothing else, see this case as some sign of respect.

You may give me more credit than I deserve

[zimmah]

Also, dim is right in saying that I didn't think my action through, it's something I usually do is post without thinking much about the results. While I agree that my actions seems pretty random and could potentially have ended in disaster, I don't think it's necessary for me to claim yet. Also, if you look at other games I played, I always have a strong resistance towards claiming. I just work much better if whatever power I may have remains a secret as long as possible. Or even the fact if I have a power or not.

[lord voldemort]

Im pretty certain at L-2 people wont get off of you until you claim

[zimmah]

Im pretty certain at L-2 people wont get off of you until you claim

L-2 sounds more dramatic than it is in a 11 player game. i think we can settle this peacefully.

[DiM]

actually L-2 has the same dramatic value in any game. it's impossible to put more pressure on somebody to claim without becoming reckless.
another vote would not increase the dramatic value, it would just provide mafia with an opportunity for an easy lynch.
that's why people stop at L-2, wait for the claim, then decide to vote or unvote.

[zimmah]

actually L-2 has the same dramatic value in any game. it's impossible to put more pressure on somebody to claim without becoming reckless.
another vote would not increase the dramatic value, it would just provide mafia with an opportunity for an easy lynch.
that's why people stop at L-2, wait for the claim, then decide to vote or unvote.

i disagree, although you are correctly that L-1 would be too dangerous, i don't think a claim is needed to avoid being lynched, in this particular situation. Also, L-2 requires way more votes in a 25 man game than it does in a 11 man game, therefore, i think in a 11 man game talking it out peacefully is also a more viable option, it's not hard to get under the gun in a 11 man game.

[lord voldemort]

Shall I put you at L-1 then...will that make you feel more 'what ever the opposite is to peaceful'

[vodean]

ok. sorry for STFUing. i was travelling. i am all caught up though. i would like to state that at the time i was fighting for a mass-claim, teh game had pretty much stalled, and i was thinking of ANYTHING to do to kick-start the game. A mass-claim may not be a particularly effective method of scum-hunting, but we MIGHt have gotten lucky, and it WOULD have stirred up discussion and given us possible starting points. i think the mass-claim has its place, and right now, there is no reason to continue it as we have cases and discussion.
I have never seen how a mass-claim gets put in motion, and i have never seen one in practice, so i dont really know all of the pros and cons, so im sorry if that was not a good time for one, but id say that it did help town as much as we could hope as of now.

as for the current zimmah/strike+edoc+saf+others, no matter which side i take, the other both sides will probably FOS me further, so im just gonna take the middle-ground and attack both sides. zimmah, clearly, a Mass-name-claim is scummy in this situation. they have their hearts set on that and there is no way that we are gonna convince them that it was pro-town. stop being so defensive and jumpy. you are just making it worse for yourself. also, you keep trying to redirect their attention back to me, and thats scummy. they are not BWing me. they are BWing you.
Everyone else - yeah, we messed up. but you are being very agressive and unyielding. you are also sheeping. so lay off it. sure, get a claim or whatever, but i dont think Zimmah is much more likely to be scum than one or two of you.

Furthermore, DiM, who was in favor of the mass-claim (and who, yes, is prone to sheeping still) just totally switched sides and attacked me... so we may want to keep an eye on him too.

FP zimmah and lovo. dude, if you claim, and you have a role worth saving, they probably wont lynch you if they believe you. otherwise, you are making yourself even scummier.

[jak111]

actually L-2 has the same dramatic value in any game. it's impossible to put more pressure on somebody to claim without becoming reckless.
another vote would not increase the dramatic value, it would just provide mafia with an opportunity for an easy lynch.
that's why people stop at L-2, wait for the claim, then decide to vote or unvote.

i disagree, although you are correctly that L-1 would be too dangerous, i don't think a claim is needed to avoid being lynched, in this particular situation. Also, L-2 requires way more votes in a 25 man game than it does in a 11 man game, therefore, i think in a 11 man game talking it out peacefully is also a more viable option, it's not hard to get under the gun in a 11 man game.

How about this. You have 10-11 hours to claim (Depending on when I head for bed tonight). If you do not claim by then, I'm going to place my vote onto your head and put you at L-1 for wasting our time.

I'm still keeping my vote on Vodean until then.

So town be warned that I'm not gonna f*ck around here. If he doesn't claim by tonight, he's going to L-1.

[zimmah]

ok. sorry for STFUing. i was travelling. i am all caught up though. i would like to state that at the time i was fighting for a mass-claim, teh game had pretty much stalled, and i was thinking of ANYTHING to do to kick-start the game. A mass-claim may not be a particularly effective method of scum-hunting, but we MIGHt have gotten lucky, and it WOULD have stirred up discussion and given us possible starting points. i think the mass-claim has its place, and right now, there is no reason to continue it as we have cases and discussion.
I have never seen how a mass-claim gets put in motion, and i have never seen one in practice, so i dont really know all of the pros and cons, so im sorry if that was not a good time for one, but id say that it did help town as much as we could hope as of now.

as for the current zimmah/strike+edoc+saf+others, no matter which side i take, the other both sides will probably FOS me further, so im just gonna take the middle-ground and attack both sides. zimmah, clearly, a Mass-name-claim is scummy in this situation. they have their hearts set on that and there is no way that we are gonna convince them that it was pro-town. stop being so defensive and jumpy. you are just making it worse for yourself. also, you keep trying to redirect their attention back to me, and thats scummy. they are not BWing me. they are BWing you.
Everyone else - yeah, we messed up. but you are being very agressive and unyielding. you are also sheeping. so lay off it. sure, get a claim or whatever, but i dont think Zimmah is much more likely to be scum than one or two of you.

Furthermore, DiM, who was in favor of the mass-claim (and who, yes, is prone to sheeping still) just totally switched sides and attacked me... so we may want to keep an eye on him too.

FP zimmah and lovo. dude, if you claim, and you have a role worth saving, they probably wont lynch you if they believe you. otherwise, you are making yourself even scummier.

were you skimming all this time? i never said i agreed with massclaiming per se, but i joined you for the very reason you state, in blue. i also never said a mass-claim would be pro-town per se, and definitely not risk-free, but it was a valid option to prevent the game from stalling, which in my eyes succeeded, and so far, we only needed 1 claim for that, so that's a small price to pay for preventing a game from stalling, with the same reasoning, i don't think you're scummy for your mass-claim action per se, especially not after you claimed yourself (although it should be noted that curiosity is not always marked as a positive emotion), but the way you're blatantly refuse to take a stand in this case makes me really wonder about your intentions. this is the second scummy action of you in just day 1.

this was exactly my reaosning, and THIS is what i am defending all the time, not the claim itself, but the reason behind it.

nowhere did i do that. besides, you know what's scummy? you not taking a stand. (orange)

so you're just going to side with whoever party wins? scummy scummy scummy FOS vodean

also, i'm waiting for edoc, / or safari to retract their votes on me. lovo can't even put me on L-1, he already voted me. minor FOS for skimming and threatening with L-1 while in my opinion my defense is solid enough. Claiming is only a last resort. and yes, i know jak also treatened me, but jak sounds more reasonable. (intend is more important than method).

[strike wolf]

Gonna call bullshit on the game stagnating before suggesting mass claim we were only a couple days in and people were talking. not to mention you were role fishing before that.

[DiM]

Furthermore, DiM, who was in favor of the mass-claim (and who, yes, is prone to sheeping still) just totally switched sides and attacked me... so we may want to keep an eye on him too.

i just unvoted you. how can that be considered an attack?

[vodean]

Furthermore, DiM, who was in favor of the mass-claim (and who, yes, is prone to sheeping still) just totally switched sides and attacked me... so we may want to keep an eye on him too.

i just unvoted you. how can that be considered an attack?

shit. sorry. i need to slooooow down. just because im jetlagged and overwhelmed does not mean my posts will be less scummu.

[edocsil]

not unvoting zimmah. Nor is strike, and others are pressuring. Don't waste time.

[vodean]

not unvoting zimmah. Nor is strike, and others are pressuring. Don't waste time.

im not saying you should. zimmah has not done a good job of defending himself. im just saying that your initial reasons for pressuring him were bad.

And zimmah, just using my reasons as your own is not helping matters.

[zimmah]

Gonna call bullshit on the game stagnating before suggesting mass claim we were only a couple days in and people were talking. not to mention you were role fishing before that.

i guess you mean vodean.

[zimmah]

well, if you really want to expose a power then fine, i'm love.

now let's get moving.

[zimmah]

would have been better for everyone to unvote me right away. it's not the first time this happens.