Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

[Swimmerdude99]

My favorite part of this thread is about 6 pages back near the top...

[jltile1]

As Changsha asked what is so difficult of making two scoreboards?? One freestyle one seq as they are two diffrent games. Fog is what it is in my opinion you still typically can tell who the leader is and can at least see around if you know what your doing. I do like the variations of maps here on CC some a little tricky but you do have to play them a few times and having a team mate that knows the map helps, but it does suck having to give up points to learn them.


I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

[thenobodies80]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

[jltile1]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

Well why even think about a post ? Maybe someone that has a answer or a real job here post . Nothing against you but we all want answers just to have a mod come here with I do t know is stupid. Put the boys here to talk to all us. If you cannot talk about it don't speak on it is my thought. Sorry

[jltile1]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

Let's be real honest here. Do the mods get involved in the forums when needed yes. But when they think it's needed not when it's a serious topic. This and many threads have been serious in my eyes and no mods there posting thoughts or opinions is my point. Look we are here posting stuff to help the site and to get no response is complete bullshit in my eyes. I could just look the other way and let this site crumble as it is . I dont know what else to tell you besides Wake up a lil

[thenobodies80]

I've shared my opinion, check the thread before to say things that are not true.
The answers you're searching for, they can be given only by ADMINS and NOT mods.
Btw I'm involved in trying to help you and to give you the answer you want. Please state clear what is your question and I'll to my best to forward it to admins, who are the only ones that can give you an answer. (and this is not my "job" on this site, but i'm trying to help you anyway)
There's no need to be "harsh" with people who is trying to help you...this site/topic is not mods vs users. We are on the same side and you can't imagine how much I want to see things done.

Why in the hell you all think we're a group of jerks all time?

[DiM]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

i'd love to get involved. it's been 5 years since i've started asking for new scoring formulas and separate scoreboards and xml updates and map categories etc.
i've done my share of arguing, debating, suggesting and solution finding both in public forums as well as private usergroups. sadly CC is one of the most change resistant environments i've ever seen.
at some point i quit the site for over 2 years only to come back and see people complain about the exact same problems and the admins promising to implement the very same things they had promised years before. things that even now haven't seen the light of day.
once i became an entertaining mod i figured i'd be able to make my voice heard easier and maybe nudge things in the right direction. all i managed to get was the antipathy of some mods/admins that are too cozy to go through changes and probably get myself really close to being kicked off the team.
i'm growing more and more disappointed and my hopes of ever seeing xml updates, map categories or different scoreboards are getting weaker and weaker with each day that passes by. and at the same time i'm growing more and more frustrated to see even the simplest of changes being done in months instead of minutes. i mean, seriously, something as simple as the wording of a rule may take over 6 months to be taken care of.
anyway, i'll just stop here as i've probably talked too much already.
it's just that it saddens me to see great ideas ignored and tons of people wasting their time trying to find solutions only to see them abandoned for years as they wait for that illusive implementation.

[Ace Rimmer]

i'd love to get involved. it's been 5 years since i've started asking for new scoring formulas and separate scoreboards and xml updates and map categories etc.
i've done my share of arguing, debating, suggesting and solution finding both in public forums as well as private usergroups. sadly CC is one of the most change resistant environments i've ever seen.
at some point i quit the site for over 2 years only to come back and see people complain about the exact same problems and the admins promising to implement the very same things they had promised years before. things that even now haven't seen the light of day.
once i became an entertaining mod i figured i'd be able to make my voice heard easier and maybe nudge things in the right direction. all i managed to get was the antipathy of some mods/admins that are too cozy to go through changes and probably get myself really close to being kicked off the team.
i'm growing more and more disappointed and my hopes of ever seeing xml updates, map categories or different scoreboards are getting weaker and weaker with each day that passes by. and at the same time i'm growing more and more frustrated to see even the simplest of changes being done in months instead of minutes. i mean, seriously, something as simple as the wording of a rule may take over 6 months to be taken care of.
anyway, i'll just stop here as i've probably talked too much already.
it's just that it saddens me to see great ideas ignored and tons of people wasting their time trying to find solutions only to see them abandoned for years as they wait for that illusive implementation.

That is the answer why CC's membership is declining. Longtime volunteers that have put in a hell of a lot of work are leaving because the admins will not recognize the problems on CC. Thank you to all of those that have already quit (jpcloet, MrBenn, chipv) and those that will go in the future.

[jltile1]

Well I guess the real point is mods and admin I don know the difference first. I do agree that you are putting thought here. I guess then my real question is why is someone that can actually make things happen not responding here.


I'm sorry if you guys took it the wrong way it not about you guys.

[BigBallinStalin]

The main point is still that 90% of potential new players quit when they find out the games they can play are not real time. Fixing that alone would probably increase the retention rate by a huge margin.

Especially when there are already sites out there where you can play speed games for free.

This is an excellent point, but the CC admins have been extremely sluggish about this. I'm beginning to think they're incompetent.

[owenshooter]

*touching my black jesus nose*... This is spot on... toss in people exhausted by the rampant cheating and you have your answer...-el Jesus negro

i'd love to get involved. it's been 5 years since i've started asking for new scoring formulas and separate scoreboards and xml updates and map categories etc.
i've done my share of arguing, debating, suggesting and solution finding both in public forums as well as private usergroups. sadly CC is one of the most change resistant environments i've ever seen.
at some point i quit the site for over 2 years only to come back and see people complain about the exact same problems and the admins promising to implement the very same things they had promised years before. things that even now haven't seen the light of day.
once i became an entertaining mod i figured i'd be able to make my voice heard easier and maybe nudge things in the right direction. all i managed to get was the antipathy of some mods/admins that are too cozy to go through changes and probably get myself really close to being kicked off the team.
i'm growing more and more disappointed and my hopes of ever seeing xml updates, map categories or different scoreboards are getting weaker and weaker with each day that passes by. and at the same time i'm growing more and more frustrated to see even the simplest of changes being done in months instead of minutes. i mean, seriously, something as simple as the wording of a rule may take over 6 months to be taken care of.
anyway, i'll just stop here as i've probably talked too much already.
it's just that it saddens me to see great ideas ignored and tons of people wasting their time trying to find solutions only to see them abandoned for years as they wait for that illusive implementation.

[Qwert]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

i'd love to get involved. it's been 5 years since i've started asking for new scoring formulas and separate scoreboards and xml updates and map categories etc.
i've done my share of arguing, debating, suggesting and solution finding both in public forums as well as private usergroups. sadly CC is one of the most change resistant environments i've ever seen.
at some point i quit the site for over 2 years only to come back and see people complain about the exact same problems and the admins promising to implement the very same things they had promised years before. things that even now haven't seen the light of day.
once i became an entertaining mod i figured i'd be able to make my voice heard easier and maybe nudge things in the right direction. all i managed to get was the antipathy of some mods/admins that are too cozy to go through changes and probably get myself really close to being kicked off the team.
i'm growing more and more disappointed and my hopes of ever seeing xml updates, map categories or different scoreboards are getting weaker and weaker with each day that passes by. and at the same time i'm growing more and more frustrated to see even the simplest of changes being done in months instead of minutes. i mean, seriously, something as simple as the wording of a rule may take over 6 months to be taken care of.
anyway, i'll just stop here as i've probably talked too much already.
it's just that it saddens me to see great ideas ignored and tons of people wasting their time trying to find solutions only to see them abandoned for years as they wait for that illusive implementation.

Yep,people who want to help for free be ignored, something what its not normal. What normal person will refuse help from people who work voluntarily for community benefit ?

[natty dread]

once i became an entertaining mod i figured i'd be able to make my voice heard easier and maybe nudge things in the right direction. all i managed to get was the antipathy of some mods/admins that are too cozy to go through changes and probably get myself really close to being kicked off the team.

I wonder if he got kicked off the team...

[Ace Rimmer]

It's REALLY hard to get kicked off the team

[Ffraid]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

[Robinette]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

well said


But i would add, every life is a march from innocence, through temptation, to virtue or vice.

And I have very often found that what makes resisting temptation so difficult,
is that I often don't really want to discourage it completely.

[Ffraid]

...what makes resisting temptation so difficult,
is that I often don't really want to discourage it completely.

Yes, well, the trouble, of course, with resisting temptation is that it may never come your way again.

[Mr Changsha]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

Very true, Ffraid. If one considers that a society made up of entirely virtuous indinividuals would be so lobotomised as to effectively stagnate (and I believe this quite sincerely), then instituting an absolute, zero-tolerance policy on farmers - CC's equivalent of the criminal class - would naturally negatively affect the site. My view has consistantly been that we need the very players we castigate, as they are part of what gives this site its verve and edge.

But what am I to do or say when, after musing upon the problem for no small amount of time, I came to the conclusion that the very settings that allow farming to exist have finally corrupted us all? That farming or criminality is not limited to the acceptable - in societal terms - 1 percent or so of the population, but has in fact seeped into the general mass of our virtual world? And when my mind glides from that concept to the general fall in the popularity of the site..what should I say then?

I suppose one could draw an analogy with theft. If no one stole a thing then society woulld be too safe. We need the demon in the shadows to give us the instinctive desire to protect our possessions and our kin. Without it society would, as I said, stagnate. But what would happen if a society created the conditions whereby anyone and everyone could steal, whenever they felt like it? Such a society would be untenable of course. People would move away and find a place to live that made some sense.

That is CC's issue with virtue and temptation.

[BigBallinStalin]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

Very true, Ffraid. If one considers that a society made up of entirely virtuous indinividuals would be so lobotomised as to effectively stagnate (and I believe this quite sincerely), then instituting an absolute, zero-tolerance policy on farmers - CC's equivalent of the criminal class - would naturally negatively affect the site. My view has consistantly been that we need the very players we castigate, as they are part of what gives this site its verve and edge.

But what am I to do or say when, after musing upon the problem for no small amount of time, I came to the conclusion that the very settings that allow farming to exist have finally corrupted us all? That farming or criminality is not limited to the acceptable - in societal terms - 1 percent or so of the population, but has in fact seeped into the general mass of our virtual world? And when my mind glides from that concept to the general fall in the popularity of the site..what should I say then?

I suppose one could draw an analogy with theft. If no one stole a thing then society woulld be too safe. We need the demon in the shadows to give us the instinctive desire to protect our possessions and our kin. Without it society would, as I said, stagnate. But what would happen if a society created the conditions whereby anyone and everyone could steal, whenever they felt like it? Such a society would be untenable of course. People would move away and find a place to live that made some sense.

That is CC's issue with virtue and temptation.

2nd underlined: Why?

Because of the [insert words from 1st underlined]?


Why wouldn't a society thrive without crime, or theft? Analogies can be annoying because now I want to ask about the government and taxation, how that theft would improve or ruin society, and finally how that syncs with your analogy... :/

[natty dread]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

Very true, Ffraid. If one considers that a society made up of entirely virtuous indinividuals would be so lobotomised as to effectively stagnate (and I believe this quite sincerely), then instituting an absolute, zero-tolerance policy on farmers - CC's equivalent of the criminal class - would naturally negatively affect the site. My view has consistantly been that we need the very players we castigate, as they are part of what gives this site its verve and edge.

But what am I to do or say when, after musing upon the problem for no small amount of time, I came to the conclusion that the very settings that allow farming to exist have finally corrupted us all? That farming or criminality is not limited to the acceptable - in societal terms - 1 percent or so of the population, but has in fact seeped into the general mass of our virtual world? And when my mind glides from that concept to the general fall in the popularity of the site..what should I say then?

I suppose one could draw an analogy with theft. If no one stole a thing then society woulld be too safe. We need the demon in the shadows to give us the instinctive desire to protect our possessions and our kin. Without it society would, as I said, stagnate. But what would happen if a society created the conditions whereby anyone and everyone could steal, whenever they felt like it? Such a society would be untenable of course. People would move away and find a place to live that made some sense.

That is CC's issue with virtue and temptation.

However, we already live in a society where thieves can steal whenever and however much they feel like. The rules and laws are already stacked in their favour.

Thing is, the thieves have succesfully implemented an illusion of possible success - one where anyone who "works hard" and "obeys the rules" is able to succeed. The ones who do all the stealing have succesfully brainwashed the masses that the way the world works is somehow fair, and that crime doesn't pay. Thus no one notices how much they are cheating and stealing.

We have people who don't break any actual laws, but since several generations of thieves before them have already slowly shaped our laws in such ways that stealing is possible for them, they can continue stealing from us, and in turn shape our laws to allow for more stealing.

And we're all happy about it, because we believe in the illusion of justice, like the cop shows on TV tell us - the bad guy is always caught in the end, and crime doesn't pay and so on. But it's only an illusion, because the very definition of stealing has been muddled by the thieves themselves.

[Ffraid]

...Fog and freestyle options tempt the virtuous...

Ah, but Changsha, I put it to you.... What is virtue without temptation?

Very true, Ffraid. If one considers that a society made up of entirely virtuous indinividuals would be so lobotomised as to effectively stagnate (and I believe this quite sincerely), then instituting an absolute, zero-tolerance policy on farmers - CC's equivalent of the criminal class - would naturally negatively affect the site. My view has consistantly been that we need the very players we castigate, as they are part of what gives this site its verve and edge.

But what am I to do or say when, after musing upon the problem for no small amount of time, I came to the conclusion that the very settings that allow farming to exist have finally corrupted us all? That farming or criminality is not limited to the acceptable - in societal terms - 1 percent or so of the population, but has in fact seeped into the general mass of our virtual world? And when my mind glides from that concept to the general fall in the popularity of the site..what should I say then?

I suppose one could draw an analogy with theft. If no one stole a thing then society woulld be too safe. We need the demon in the shadows to give us the instinctive desire to protect our possessions and our kin. Without it society would, as I said, stagnate. But what would happen if a society created the conditions whereby anyone and everyone could steal, whenever they felt like it? Such a society would be untenable of course. People would move away and find a place to live that made some sense.

That is CC's issue with virtue and temptation.

In your analogy, Mr Changsha, the temptations of the thief are the possessions of the people. Would you remove the very possessions from society in order to prevent them from being stolen? How, then, are you any better than the thief? Of what significance is your virtue if there is never any possibility of being led astray? I feel certain that people, with the exception of John Lennon, of course, would never tolerate such a drastic measure.

You are correct, however, in your assertion that a society in which anyone and everyone could steal, whenever they felt like it, would be untenable. What solution, then? The only conclusion to be drawn is that thievery must be punished and the thief be held accountable for his duplicity.

I shouldn't be concerned that this would eliminate the criminal class entirely, thereby effectively homogenizing society to the point of boredom, for, as Robinette rightly noted, when we emerge from our innocence, having endured the trials of temptation, there will inevitably be some that choose vice over virtue. Even given the existence of punishment, there will always be crime. It is the nature of humanity.

Only in this way, Mr Changsha, can virtue retain any meaning. Plus, you get to keep your shit.

Translation guide (for those who have a problem with analogies):
Options, specifically those of fog and freestyle, are represented by possessions or shit.
The Conquer Club community is society or the people.
The role of the farmer is played by the thief.
Temptation and virtue, as shall ever be the case, remain temptation and virtue.

[maasman]

I take great offense to what you say about freestyle and fog. I have finally plowed through this entire thread and I do have a few thoughts.

CC needs freestyle. It is what separates it from many other sites, and is one of the reasons why I stayed. I HAD to play freestyle when I was freemium because otherwise I would almost never get a turn. I think the main issue with freestyle is when clickes came around. That simplified so many things for so many people that I couldn't compete anymore. Of course, I had premium by then, but for the first couple of years I did not. I think the main problem with freestyle is the massive increase in speed people gained by using these add ons. You say the alpha players are the ones that don't play these settings, I say the alpha players are the ones that don't need add ons. I use BOB myself, but I could most definitely go without it. This massive increase in speed really accelerated the farming. Think about how much farming could get done if the fastest people suddenly could only play at half speed or worse? I see things about people taking more than 1 region a second, I will never be able to manage to come even close to that, maybe 1 region every 2 seconds at my fastest, but more like 3+.

As far as fog is concerned, it adds far more strategy than anything it is possibly hurting. Sunny games are boring, I don't want to be able to see everyone at once, it makes things way too easy. I know I could get to colonel on 6+ player esc sunny, but I highly doubt I could do it on fog. Fog is way too much fun for way too many people to get rid of it, and freestyle is too important for freemiums because it always them to actually play a game or two a day if they so choose. I understand your point about farming with freestyle and fog on tricky maps, I myself tend not to go towards those since it isn't fun for me, I'd get farmed all day. I don't think you can make this site better by removing anything from it, I think the only way to actually improve it is through addition and reformatting. Reformat the the layouts, give newbies some more help, fix a couple of things and I think most of these issues will go away.

[natty dread]

reestyle is too important for freemiums because it always them to actually play a game or two a day if they so choose

So basically, if we had free speed games for freemiums, they wouldn't need freestyle for anything...

[maasman]

reestyle is too important for freemiums because it always them to actually play a game or two a day if they so choose

So basically, if we had free speed games for freemiums, they wouldn't need freestyle for anything...

If they can have 4 games being speed then yeah potentially. If you only offer one at a time or some other limit then no, I still think freestyle is necessary, or at least not as bad as people are making it out to be.

[Fozzie]

Here's my two cents... I've been a member for a long time, and have always been freemium. I've never paid for two reasons - I 'm a cheapskate, and I'm afraid that if I was allowed more than four games at a time I would spend all of my time here. My wife would not like that at all (so maybe that's three reasons.) Anyway, the site has become somewhat intimidating. 200+ maps to play is great, but asking a noobie to sort through them and understand what he's looking at is ridiculous. Map categories are badly needed. Choosing those categories will be an entirely separate argument. And I would also be in favor of restricting some of the game options for noobies until they complete X number of games. Don't take away any of the complexity from the advanced users (nobody is forced to join a game with options they don't like), but making those options something that a player must "earn" the ability to play is just fine. Video games have been doing that for years - with unlockable levels, etc.

Allowing freemium players to play one speed game at a time could be a hook to get more members, and may even get more people to upgrade to be able to play more than one at a time. Again, make this something that you must earn the right to get. And I also think that accounts that have been inactive for a long period of time (years) should be deleted.

Regarding the points, rankings, and possibly having more than one scoreboard: points are points. How you get them is up to you. Personally I think it's harder to beat 7 other players in 1 game than it is to beat 7 different people 1v1. And I am proud of my ranking and every point that I have earned, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that other people are ahead of me. Changing the scoreboard should be a low priority.