Gay Adoption

[2dimes]

Well, the venting must have been good. I'm in a better mood about being married and have not even needed to talk to her or flip out.

That's excellent to hear, seriously. We're here for you.

Thanks, the comfort of strangers can be good. Eventually I'll settle down enough to talk to her about it.

[Woodruff]

Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?

But that's not the alternative, Phatscotty...that's a false choice. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted. So the choice that you're trying to avoid here is the choice between no parents at all and either 2 mothers or 2 fathers. That is the reality here.

#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

Again, that's not the alternative we're dealing with. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted.

hmmm, that looks like a dodge to me

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

[Woodruff]

Well, the venting must have been good. I'm in a better mood about being married and have not even needed to talk to her or flip out.

That's excellent to hear, seriously. We're here for you.

Thanks, the comfort of strangers can be good. Eventually I'll settle down enough to talk to her about it.

While we're certainly strangers (and strange), we do to a small degree know each other, as well.

[Phatscotty]

Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?

But that's not the alternative, Phatscotty...that's a false choice. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted. So the choice that you're trying to avoid here is the choice between no parents at all and either 2 mothers or 2 fathers. That is the reality here.

#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

Again, that's not the alternative we're dealing with. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted.

hmmm, that looks like a dodge to me

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

The reality is making the healthy decision to give children to families with a mother and a father, and nothing else.

[john9blue]

Thanks john9blue, I'm glad you could come in and moderately and independently make sure everyone understood our positions!

i was criticizing you individually.
are you a liberal? if so, then you might have a case for your argument that i only target liberals with my accusations.

Actually, for this particular point, it doesn't matter at all if I am a liberal, but only if you consider me to be a liberal. I strongly suspect you do.

i consider you a liberal for the same reasons that you consider me a Republican conservative.

You've never seen me say anything conservative? I'm surprised, to be honest.

i have. and surely you've heard me support "liberal" causes (like the one in this thread)

but you almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, whereas i almost exclusively criticize our liberal posters.

[Woodruff]

Thanks john9blue, I'm glad you could come in and moderately and independently make sure everyone understood our positions!

i was criticizing you individually.
are you a liberal? if so, then you might have a case for your argument that i only target liberals with my accusations.

Actually, for this particular point, it doesn't matter at all if I am a liberal, but only if you consider me to be a liberal. I strongly suspect you do.

i consider you a liberal for the same reasons that you consider me a Republican conservative.

You've never seen me say anything conservative? I'm surprised, to be honest.

i have. and surely you've heard me support "liberal" causes (like the one in this thread)

but you almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, whereas i almost exclusively criticize our liberal posters.

I disagree with PLAYER all the time. It's a very frequent occurrence. I disagree with pimpdave all the time...that one is pretty much a constant. I disagree with natty_dread quite consistently. I disagreed with Sultan of Surreal all the time when he was here. If you believe I almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, then you quite simply are not paying attention. On the other hand, I agree with thegreekdog reasonably often. Now, you can go ahead and point out the conservative posters that you disagree with with any consistency at all! You can also mention the liberals that you agree with reasonably often. Yeah, I didn't think you could either, Mr Independent Moderate.

[2dimes]

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

I don't know Woody. You might be too harsh there. Obviously I'm leaning your way here but.. I don't know if it's hypocritical to want everything to be ideal. Sure it's unrealistic but in a way it's good.

I like to play what if. Kind of like the Jonny Lennon "Imagine" but even better. Imagine all the people living perfectly in true love.

I guess it can't really happen while there's stuff like sex, power and money to throw us off.

[Woodruff]

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

I don't know Woody. You might be too harsh there. Obviously I'm leaning your way here but.. I don't know if it's hypocritical to want everything to be ideal. Sure it's unrealistic but in a way it's good.
I like to play what if. Kind of like the Jonny Lennon "Imagine" but even better. Imagine all the people living perfectly in true love.
I guess it can't really happen while there's stuff like sex, power and money to throw us off.

I am an extremely idealistic person, actually. But in this issue, real lives are at stake. Reality should be the way the problem is viewed, rather than via idealism.

[2dimes]

Yeah and sometime certain things that are "close enough" beat all the alternatives.

While we're certainly strangers (and strange), we do to a small degree know each other, as well.

Yeah, that is one of her issues. I'll toot my own horn. I am a good man as much as I can be.

There's no doubt I'm a bit strange though. I promise I'm rarely boring.

[Phatscotty]

Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?

But that's not the alternative, Phatscotty...that's a false choice. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted. So the choice that you're trying to avoid here is the choice between no parents at all and either 2 mothers or 2 fathers. That is the reality here.

#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

Again, that's not the alternative we're dealing with. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted.

Can anyone answer these questions with "I agree"?

[Phatscotty]

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

I don't know Woody. You might be too harsh there. Obviously I'm leaning your way here but.. I don't know if it's hypocritical to want everything to be ideal. Sure it's unrealistic but in a way it's good.

I like to play what if. Kind of like the Jonny Lennon "Imagine" but even better. Imagine all the people living perfectly in true love.

I guess it can't really happen while there's stuff like sex, power and money to throw us off.

Try to understand, my goal is to try to move more toward the ideal. It is never to snap my fingers and demand the ideal as the way it is or should be. We can only take measures and work towards making things a little bit more in the direction we want them to go. If we strengthen marriage just a little bit, society will be just a little bit better off, and we will have slightly stronger families and stronger children, and they will have a better chance to go on to be slightly better parents.

[Lootifer]

#1 Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?
#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

#1 Yes, but only in a vacuum; 2 fathers/2 mothers can cover every aspect of good parenting if they use all the resources available to them (that is they are good parents)
#2 No. The only thing that should be being evaluated in adoption cases is how good the potential parents are; this single aspect dwarfs anything else involved

I assume you are talking about the role models argument (that seems to be where you are heading). You know parents can work within their community to find more than adequate role models right?

Also: What type of organisation is employing you in your new role?

[Lootifer]

Oh and im out for the night, this amazing body doesnt come naturally, so ill reply tomorrow.

[Phatscotty]

#1 Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?
#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

#1 Yes, but only in a vacuum; 2 fathers/2 mothers can cover every aspect of good parenting if they use all the resources available to them (that is they are good parents)
#2 No. The only thing that should be being evaluated in adoption cases is how good the potential parents are; this single aspect dwarfs anything else involved

I assume you are talking about the role models argument (that seems to be where you are heading). You know parents can work within their community to find more than adequate role models right?

Also: What type of organisation is employing you in your new role?

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

[john9blue]

I disagree with PLAYER all the time. It's a very frequent occurrence. I disagree with pimpdave all the time...that one is pretty much a constant. I disagree with natty_dread quite consistently. I disagreed with Sultan of Surreal all the time when he was here. If you believe I almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, then you quite simply are not paying attention. On the other hand, I agree with thegreekdog reasonably often. Now, you can go ahead and point out the conservative posters that you disagree with with any consistency at all! You can also mention the liberals that you agree with reasonably often. Yeah, I didn't think you could either, Mr Independent Moderate.

...really? i feel like we've been through this before.

dave and sultan were complete trolls and douchebags and i think everyone disagreed with them. player is unique to this forum and seems to make lots of people mad for various reasons, lol. those have nothing to do with your personal views.

i disagree with scotty and nightstrike and greek and other conservative posters more often than you realize. but do you know why you don't notice? because those three rarely ever display hostility and disrespect towards other people, so i allow them to hold their different viewpoints (and might occasionally respectfully disagree). the four you mentioned are all douchebags on a regular basis, with the exception of player (who i am more tolerant of than almost anyone). you aren't open-minded just because you disagree with them.

similarly, i agree with you in principle on quite a few things, but you are one of the most abrasive posters on the forum and your well-made points are often couched within some form of insult. so why would i bother supporting someone like that? it's a matter of respect; give it and you will receive it back in turn.

[2dimes]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

[Phatscotty]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

[Haggis_McMutton]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

And these, ladies and gentlemen, are the issues that should take precedence over two people's right to get married and over a child's right to have a loving family.

Don't have daddy to explain to you what a boner is? Well, guess you're better off in the foster homes. Or are there currently absolutely no children up for adoption?

How in god's name can you come here every day and post hundreds of posts in support of both minimizing government and legalizing morality? It's seriously impressive you don't find those two positions contradictory.

Also, I'll just leave this study here.

[saxitoxin]

How about your sons first boner?

I remember, as a young kinder growing up in Gstaad, our night governess Fraulein Zelda would burst into my room every twenty minutes or so and loudly exclaim in her thick Swiss accent, "BONER CHECK!" then grab my brother Rolf's crotch and my own.

It wasn't until I was 16 that I learned from our horrified day governess Fraulein Maxie that we didn't have a night governess. The locksmith was called in the next day.

Something like that ever happen to others?

[Neoteny]

Yes, but I had to pay for such treatment.

[nagerous]

How about your sons first boner?

I remember, as a young kinder growing up in Gstaad, our night governess Fraulein Zelda would burst into my room every twenty minutes or so and loudly exclaim in her thick Swiss accent, "BONER CHECK!" then grab my brother Rolf's crotch and my own.

It wasn't until I was 16 that I learned from our horrified day governess Fraulein Maxie that we didn't have a night governess. The locksmith was called in the next day.

Something like that ever happen to others?

Yes.

[Woodruff]

Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?

But that's not the alternative, Phatscotty...that's a false choice. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted. So the choice that you're trying to avoid here is the choice between no parents at all and either 2 mothers or 2 fathers. That is the reality here.

#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

Again, that's not the alternative we're dealing with. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted.

hmmm, that looks like a dodge to me

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

The reality is making the healthy decision to give children to families with a mother and a father, and nothing else.

That's only a reality in the world of the bigot.

[Woodruff]

#1 Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?
#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

#1 Yes, but only in a vacuum; 2 fathers/2 mothers can cover every aspect of good parenting if they use all the resources available to them (that is they are good parents)
#2 No. The only thing that should be being evaluated in adoption cases is how good the potential parents are; this single aspect dwarfs anything else involved

I assume you are talking about the role models argument (that seems to be where you are heading). You know parents can work within their community to find more than adequate role models right?

Also: What type of organisation is employing you in your new role?

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

So in the heterosexual parenting scheme, you'd favor the wife who sleeps around on an abusive husband as a set of parents (showing their kids how to be a man and women, no less!) than to a set of homosexuals who would give them a loving home?

[Woodruff]

I disagree with PLAYER all the time. It's a very frequent occurrence. I disagree with pimpdave all the time...that one is pretty much a constant. I disagree with natty_dread quite consistently. I disagreed with Sultan of Surreal all the time when he was here. If you believe I almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, then you quite simply are not paying attention. On the other hand, I agree with thegreekdog reasonably often. Now, you can go ahead and point out the conservative posters that you disagree with with any consistency at all! You can also mention the liberals that you agree with reasonably often. Yeah, I didn't think you could either, Mr Independent Moderate.

...really? i feel like we've been through this before.

dave and sultan were complete trolls and douchebags and i think everyone disagreed with them.

I'm not talking about their personalities in these fora, I'm talking about their positions.

player is unique to this forum and seems to make lots of people mad for various reasons, lol. those have nothing to do with your personal views.

I didn't say I got mad at her, I said I disagree with her all the time. That has EVERYTHING to do with my personal views.

i disagree with scotty and nightstrike and greek and other conservative posters more often than you realize.

You certainly don't speak up about it. Perhaps you can point to these voluminous disagreements?

but do you know why you don't notice? because those three rarely ever display hostility and disrespect towards other people, so i allow them to hold their different viewpoints (and might occasionally respectfully disagree).

That has nothing to do with noticing them. I notice when thegreekdog disagrees with Phatscotty, and he doesn't display hostility nor disrespect. So again...perhaps you can point to these voluminous disagreements?

the four you mentioned are all douchebags on a regular basis, with the exception of player (who i am more tolerant of than almost anyone). you aren't open-minded just because you disagree with them.

That has nothing to do with their positions.

similarly, i agree with you in principle on quite a few things, but you are one of the most abrasive posters on the forum and your well-made points are often couched within some form of insult. so why would i bother supporting someone like that?

Because a correct position is a correct position.

it's a matter of respect; give it and you will receive it back in turn.

I have to respect you first.

[Woodruff]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

Phatscotty, even in the 1940s they had these neat devices called books.