Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[new guy1]

I should also say our roles are not connected, the only thing I said to him was reminding him exactly what happened that night and told him to not post how we were intoxicated only that we were intoxicated, as it is the honest truth. Either way, I agree with the breakdown of Rodion's analysis of Doom's directions and Im really happy that the vig did not kill me last night, as I would have been quite pissed if they did .

fastposted

[Some7hingCLEVER]

[
Clever did say they were intoxicated that day, but only after NG privately told Clever about the circumstances because he did not want "the truth" out on the internet. To me it's clear that "the truth" was not thoroughly explained. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they were intoxicated with drugs. Perhaps they were having an homossexual affair. Or perhaps they were busy murdering someone that day. Another possibility is that they are scumbuddies with daytalk and wanted to have a conference before posting in public. They could also be masons with daytalk trying to figure the best thing to say in order to avoid a claim.

i told the truth i had no idea he had even said anything about keeping the truth off the internet. we were intoxicated. and i do remember us on the laptops but we were also doing 800 other things. lol we werent cheating as we have been accused of this before and we arent that dumb anyway.

[Rodion]

I did not say you were cheating.

[new guy1]

I didnt think you were, but we have been accused of it before so maybe he jsut wanted to be clear about it.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

I didnt think you were, but we have been accused of it before so maybe he jsut wanted to be clear about it.

exactly i know he didnt but i didnt want it to get that far.

[safariguy5]

Meta about RL is probably pointless. Nobody can prove it one way or another.

[pmchugh]

It seems like you have been sticking up for new guy because it was the popular thing to do (and he has softed a pr) to gain town cred.

You couldn't be more wrong. Go back to page 94, where Yoshi voted NG. Between his vote and my "sticking up" there were 8 posts. How many of those stated they were against NG's case, thus allowing me to diagnose "sticking up for NG" as "the popular thing to do"?

Zero.

Hmm maybe you got it in first but it doesn't change the situation. He had soft claimed a PR and if you are mafia you know he is town and therefore not lying. Siding with a PR is always a good thing to do as it means you are less likely to be investigated. The difference between your posts and the other is that you seem to be forcing it, they seemed genuinely confused/suspicious.

I don't like your reasoning, with how fervently he has been saying that he is telling the truth to still give him leeway to be lying is OTT.

Online game.
Not all players are online at the same time.
Timezones vary at least from USA West Coast to South Africa.
As a consequence, the game is not "real time" and game days have multiple RL days of deadline.
In fact, this day took 15-16 days (depending on whether you count the "a lynch has occurred" post or the "lynch scene" post).
2 hours and 10 minutes before the deadline (after more than 99% of D2 had elapsed), Yoshi twists NG's quote and requests that the vig kill NG.
Do you really find it "OTT" that I wouldn't see harm in a lie that kept the vig from carrying Yoshi's action on?

He had been going for newguy well before that last 2 hours but you completely shifted my point. The problem would not be that he lied then but that he is so adamant that he is still telling the truth, you are claiming that if we some how found out that ng was lying that you would let him live after all of that? I don't believe you one bit, either he is telling the truth or he is scum and I don't see how you could see it any other way.

I think at this point you have to either believe him or think him scum.

I disagree.

Clever did say they were intoxicated that day, but only after NG privately told Clever about the circumstances because he did not want "the truth" out on the internet. To me it's clear that "the truth" was not thoroughly explained. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they were intoxicated with drugs. Perhaps they were having an homossexual affair. Or perhaps they were busy murdering someone that day. Another possibility is that they are scumbuddies with daytalk and wanted to have a conference before posting in public. They could also be masons with daytalk trying to figure the best thing to say in order to avoid a claim.

Amidst all those possibilities (and I only listed a few), do you know where the beauty of it all lies in?

As I have already established that lying would not have been punishable due to the circumstances, I don't have to worry about believing him or not. It's a null tell for me.

Well that fell nicely into place. The first paragraph is literally incoherent rambling, what has that got to do with anything? Listen to new guy, he got offended that we thought he was lying, he repeatedly has stated that he is not lying. Just read his posts dude, there is no way that is a lying townie.

Going to say it one more time for didactic purposes: I DON'T CARE.

You absolutely should, how do you scum hunt without wondering whether someone is posting in a genuine manner or not?

1 - Yoshi literally "sneaked" his direction in the last minutes/hours of the day.
2 - When I direct night actions, they usually happen in 1 of 2 scenarios (Yoshi did neither of those):
a) obvious directions that shouldn't really have to be said but I say anyway because I don't trust people to be smart ("watch the doctor", "protect the cop" and so on)
b) post-massclaim directions, when I try to tell which players are lying after all cards have been laid out on the table

He was pushing for his lynch all throughout the chap thing, yet you said nothing so it begs the question, is it just that he tried to direct the vig that you find scummy or is there more to it? Doom is a smart player and so are you and you think he would be willing to direct that shot and feel confident of surviving?

This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did, but the answer wouldn't be complete if I didn't talk a little about the double standard thing, wouldn't it? So to throw you your cookie (and this has nothing to do with the Yoshi vote, more to how I generally play games, mafia or not), I allow myself liberties that I don't like other people to take for themselves because I feel they are not smart enough to use them properly, unlike me. Yes, I'm as arrogant as one can be. You should know that by now.

This is not about "allowing people liberties" it is about whether you think someone is scum, so how about your defend yourself and explain why he is scummy rather than filling pages of jibberish?

[Rodion]

Meta about RL is probably pointless. Nobody can prove it one way or another.

Who exactly are you adressing this to?

It seems like you have been sticking up for new guy because it was the popular thing to do (and he has softed a pr) to gain town cred.

You couldn't be more wrong. Go back to page 94, where Yoshi voted NG. Between his vote and my "sticking up" there were 8 posts. How many of those stated they were against NG's case, thus allowing me to diagnose "sticking up for NG" as "the popular thing to do"?

Zero.

Hmm maybe you got it in first but it doesn't change the situation. He had soft claimed a PR and if you are mafia you know he is town and therefore not lying. Siding with a PR is always a good thing to do as it means you are less likely to be investigated. The difference between your posts and the other is that you seem to be forcing it, they seemed genuinely confused/suspicious.

This paragraph is so outrageous I don't even know where to begin.

"It doesn't change the situation"? How come? Are you now saying it doesn't matter whether you lead a wagon or just join in the middle of it?

"Always a good thing"? Mafia wants those PRs dead, you know. Defending a PR to earn you brownie points and consequently not forcing them to claim/get lynched may not be "always a good thing".

"The difference between your posts and the other"? Hold on, who/what is "the other"? Or, rather, "the others", as "they" seemed confused. Are you talking about NG and Clever? Why would you even include Clever here?

To sum it up, you are saying what I said "seems fake" while what other people said "seems genuine". The rest is you explaining how mafia could benefit from protecting a power role. It does not mean everyone who protects a power role is mafia. And this is not to mention we aren't even sure whether New Guy IS a power role, town or mafia. All we know is he feels his role is "too important to die", but I digress.

I don't like your reasoning, with how fervently he has been saying that he is telling the truth to still give him leeway to be lying is OTT.

Online game.
Not all players are online at the same time.
Timezones vary at least from USA West Coast to South Africa.
As a consequence, the game is not "real time" and game days have multiple RL days of deadline.
In fact, this day took 15-16 days (depending on whether you count the "a lynch has occurred" post or the "lynch scene" post).
2 hours and 10 minutes before the deadline (after more than 99% of D2 had elapsed), Yoshi twists NG's quote and requests that the vig kill NG.
Do you really find it "OTT" that I wouldn't see harm in a lie that kept the vig from carrying Yoshi's action on?

He had been going for newguy well before that last 2 hours but you completely shifted my point. The problem would not be that he lied then but that he is so adamant that he is still telling the truth, you are claiming that if we some how found out that ng was lying that you would let him live after all of that? I don't believe you one bit, either he is telling the truth or he is scum and I don't see how you could see it any other way.

There are no established rules about lying and coming clean in mafia as far as I know. What I said is that he might have lied in order to prevent his NK and now might be afraid of confessing in order to avoid people mindlessly quoting "LAL, vote newguy". I said everything about this "inexistent defense" should be considered a null tell, which means it does not make NG any more likely to be town nor mafia.

There is no way to find out whether NG lied or not short of a post-game conversation, so you can believe him, disbelieve him or consider this irrelevant. I say it is irrelevant, precisely because if he did lie, he did so with the purpose of surviving a NK, a goal that is common to all factions (even a jester wants to survive NKs). Hence, null tell.

I think at this point you have to either believe him or think him scum.

I disagree.

Clever did say they were intoxicated that day, but only after NG privately told Clever about the circumstances because he did not want "the truth" out on the internet. To me it's clear that "the truth" was not thoroughly explained. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they were intoxicated with drugs. Perhaps they were having an homossexual affair. Or perhaps they were busy murdering someone that day. Another possibility is that they are scumbuddies with daytalk and wanted to have a conference before posting in public. They could also be masons with daytalk trying to figure the best thing to say in order to avoid a claim.

Amidst all those possibilities (and I only listed a few), do you know where the beauty of it all lies in?

As I have already established that lying would not have been punishable due to the circumstances, I don't have to worry about believing him or not. It's a null tell for me.

Well that fell nicely into place. The first paragraph is literally incoherent rambling, what has that got to do with anything? Listen to new guy, he got offended that we thought he was lying, he repeatedly has stated that he is not lying. Just read his posts dude, there is no way that is a lying townie.

The first paragraph is there to show there are countless possibilities to explain what happened.

The rest explains that since what NG did has been ruled a null tell, to keep worrying about that is an exercise in futility.

Going to say it one more time for didactic purposes: I DON'T CARE.

You absolutely should, how do you scum hunt without wondering whether someone is posting in a genuine manner or not?

WOW!

Way to miss the point again. Not caring about this particular thing is a direct conclusion from considering it all a null tell. If the circumstances were different and I considered lying a scum tell (which I do in most situations), then I'd bother trying to find out whether he lied or not. Since his goal was survival and both town and mafia share this goal, I'll consider this a null tell, which means it doesn't really matter whether he was genuine or not.

1 - Yoshi literally "sneaked" his direction in the last minutes/hours of the day.
2 - When I direct night actions, they usually happen in 1 of 2 scenarios (Yoshi did neither of those):
a) obvious directions that shouldn't really have to be said but I say anyway because I don't trust people to be smart ("watch the doctor", "protect the cop" and so on)
b) post-massclaim directions, when I try to tell which players are lying after all cards have been laid out on the table

He was pushing for his lynch all throughout the chap thing, yet you said nothing so it begs the question, is it just that he tried to direct the vig that you find scummy or is there more to it? Doom is a smart player and so are you and you think he would be willing to direct that shot and feel confident of surviving?

"All throughout the chap thing"? Really?

Yoshi started pressuring NG exactly 54 minutes before his "we still have 2 hours and 10 minutes" post, which means the pressure started 3 hours and 4 minutes before the deadline. 54 minutes later, it escalated into "I don't care about him claiming, just vig him already". NG did not even get to post during this 54-minute timespan.

Those are the facts. If you consider Doom to be a smart player, I don't see how you can view his actions as not scummy.

This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did, but the answer wouldn't be complete if I didn't talk a little about the double standard thing, wouldn't it? So to throw you your cookie (and this has nothing to do with the Yoshi vote, more to how I generally play games, mafia or not), I allow myself liberties that I don't like other people to take for themselves because I feel they are not smart enough to use them properly, unlike me. Yes, I'm as arrogant as one can be. You should know that by now.

This is not about "allowing people liberties" it is about whether you think someone is scum, so how about your defend yourself and explain why he is scummy rather than filling pages of jibberish?

You missed the point again. The liberty chat was to Saf. He accused me of using a double standard, namely of doing things a certain way while considering suspicious players that do things the same way I do. I've already explained why there was no double standard at all. Despite this not being a case of a double standard, I explained to Saf that I do hold double standards for some things. That is just me and it is not actually relevant to this particular moment of the game (because, as I said, there was no double standard).

I've already said this, but Yoshi is scummy because:
a) he voted Jak after Jak said he'd rather die than reveal his actions. Consequently, his vote gave the following statement: "I'm fine with seeing a non-counterclaimed doctor die"
b) he tried to direct the vig under all the circumstances I've already explained (no reasonable time left, request based on the speculation of a single post when there were other interpretations available)

Finally, as the whole bomb-hammer thing was part of your vote motivation and you did not adress this in your last post, I gotta ask: did you read anything at all concerning NBC Mafia D2?

[DoomYoshi]

@new guy: is it drunk or intoxicated? I can't push this too much, but if you say one thing and mean another that is known as Lieing. I follow a LAL policy.

@Rodion:
Argument 1) proves that I was playing unintelligently. I was either playing illogically or without considering all items of evidence. Unintelligent playing does not equate scum, although it can be a useful hint. I did not stop your fos as I realized it was a just fos and you had firmly caught me.

Argument 2) is false. Under no circumstances is directing actions scummy. There is a difference between vigging a player and asking for a vig. This is analogous to the difference between fos and vote.
Now, if new guy had been vigged, would it have been my fault? Only if I was the vig. (although he would have turned up scum, so we wouldn't have had this convo).

[safariguy5]

The comment about meta is to everyone in general. I could say that I was tired from hiring a 1000 dollar an hour prostitute last night and say I didn't post because of that and nobody would have evidence that would prove otherwise or prove me right. I'm not interested in people's RL excuses besides when they have a legitimate reason for being away. To build a case OR a defense on that type of meta is inherently flawed because then we discuss things that are out of the scope of the game and cannot be reliably fact checked.

As for the question of LAL tied to a fake bomb claim, I will say that faking a bomb claim is a pretty common fake for mafia, and a townie faking a bomb claim to me is like the boy who cried wolf. Sure, I might believe you this time, but that probably means that in future games, I will view your claims more skeptically because it's difficult to distinguish between a lying townie and a lying mafia member. Which usually leads to me advocating lynching them either way.

[pmchugh]

"It doesn't change the situation"? How come? Are you now saying it doesn't matter whether you lead a wagon or just join in the middle of it?

It would be if I had accused you of bandwaggoning, I said you were saying something for town cred and although having your vote first makes it a little harder to prove you could still achieve the same goal through doing it.

"Always a good thing"? Mafia wants those PRs dead, you know. Defending a PR to earn you brownie points and consequently not forcing them to claim/get lynched may not be "always a good thing".

You remind me of a girl I know who loves to twist peoples words. Yes it might not be a good thing if you were to stop them from being lynched but new guy was in very little danger of being lynched at that time.

"The difference between your posts and the other"? Hold on, who/what is "the other"? Or, rather, "the others", as "they" seemed confused. Are you talking about NG and Clever? Why would you even include Clever here?

Again with the word twisting! It is pretty obvious it was a typo, I meant to write "others". Gimli and SG7 seemed wary because of the "lie" but neither seemed to suspect him based on the post doom did, everywhere and clever were both critical of dooms vote. I have to say I thought it was more popular than that, and perhaps I gave you a bit of a harsh time over that point.

There are no established rules about lying and coming clean in mafia as far as I know. What I said is that he might have lied in order to prevent his NK and now might be afraid of confessing in order to avoid people mindlessly quoting "LAL, vote newguy". I said everything about this "inexistent defense" should be considered a null tell, which means it does not make NG any more likely to be town nor mafia.

There is no way to find out whether NG lied or not short of a post-game conversation, so you can believe him, disbelieve him or consider this irrelevant. I say it is irrelevant, precisely because if he did lie, he did so with the purpose of surviving a NK, a goal that is common to all factions (even a jester wants to survive NKs). Hence, null tell.

There were so many better plays than lying, if ng really was town there it would have been so much easier to call out doom on his ridiculous post. This seems to be going in circles. I'm going to leave it with; if newguy is town and he confirms he was lying in post-game chat then I will retire from mafia on CC as I have clearly lost all ability to read people.

Since his goal was survival and both town and mafia share this goal, I'll consider this a null tell, which means it doesn't really matter whether he was genuine or not.

Town members do not have the goal of survival, or at least it is of less importance. Sure nobody wants to die but being overly worried about yourself is a scum tell, townies are aggressive and mafia are passive. Lying and manipulating the town (which would be what I would call it should ng never have intended to post anything) in order to ensure your survival is not an acceptable town play.

"All throughout the chap thing"? Really?

Yoshi started pressuring NG exactly 54 minutes before his "we still have 2 hours and 10 minutes" post, which means the pressure started 3 hours and 4 minutes before the deadline. 54 minutes later, it escalated into "I don't care about him claiming, just vig him already". NG did not even get to post during this 54-minute timespan.

Those are the facts. If you consider Doom to be a smart player, I don't see how you can view his actions as not scummy.

Again you took one line from what I have said and twisted it. Regardless of whatever time it happened in you were still online and actively posting, so my questions stand.

I've already said this, but Yoshi is scummy because:
a) he voted Jak after Jak said he'd rather die than reveal his actions. Consequently, his vote gave the following statement: "I'm fine with seeing a non-counterclaimed doctor die"
b) he tried to direct the vig under all the circumstances I've already explained (no reasonable time left, request based on the speculation of a single post when there were other interpretations available)

A is fair enough, I have no problems with that.

B- I already asked, do you really believe doom was balsy enough to push that action and be confident of surviving the next day?

Finally, as the whole bomb-hammer thing was part of your vote motivation and you did not adress this in your last post, I gotta ask: did you read anything at all concerning NBC Mafia D2?

Your posts are long enough to read ffs but it doesn't matter. Using meta as a defence is not read worthy in the first place, if you could explain your point from the previous game then fair play and if you can't explain it well then maybe you should change your play. I am not going to believe something is a townie action because you said "Look I have done this before". Meta does not work in your own defence because it is easily pre-planned, as soon as the bomb hammer landed at your door step you had a ready made excuse not to volunteer.

[shieldgenerator7]

Well I hope you guys didn't get killed IRL because you were intovicated. No drinking while driving, amirite? Srsly, guys, stay safe.
But yeah what happened that night has little to nothing to do with the game.

And I will VOTE RODION to test my vote. It seems we have a little evidence to suspect Rodion and saf suspects him so I will jump on this wagon in interest of getting a claim. Rodion is a near-unlynchable townie, just look at Terminator, his first claim-to-fame. No matter what argument you throw at him he can shoot it down and avoid getting lynched every time. If you bring in night action reports to prove he's scum, he might even find a way around that. The only way we'll get a claim out of him is straight-up bandwagoning.

I don't want to lynch him just yet, I just want him to claim.

-SG7 ( )

[Rodion]

@new guy: is it drunk or intoxicated? I can't push this too much, but if you say one thing and mean another that is known as Lieing. I follow a LAL policy.

See what I meant, PMC? Maybe they were just uncomfortable confessing they are potheads and wanted to sound like they just took some extra beers, but that would be lying. And Yoshi follows a LAL policy.

@Rodion:
Argument 1) proves that I was playing unintelligently. I was either playing illogically or without considering all items of evidence. Unintelligent playing does not equate scum, although it can be a useful hint. I did not stop your fos as I realized it was a just fos and you had firmly caught me.

Argument 2) is false. Under no circumstances is directing actions scummy. There is a difference between vigging a player and asking for a vig. This is analogous to the difference between fos and vote.
Now, if new guy had been vigged, would it have been my fault? Only if I was the vig. (although he would have turned up scum, so we wouldn't have had this convo).

That's your opinion. In my opinion, directing actions may or may not be scummy. Pancakemix, for instance, has issues with me everytime I direct an action. He says it's always scummy.

And if you instigate someone into doing an action, the consequences of this action are your fault too (for good or for bad).

The comment about meta is to everyone in general.

Ok, I now understand your former post.

I do not understand why you conveniently forgot to adress this, though:

Here's the problem I see here. Rodion has been perfectly willing, even boastful about his ability to direct town actions. Now, he takes issue with Doom directing a vig action, which honestly sounds like a double standard here. If Rodion thinks it's acceptable to direct town actions, then he shouldn't discount other people doing the same thing.

unvote vote Rodion

Apples and oranges, Saf.

1 - Yoshi literally "sneaked" his direction in the last minutes/hours of the day.
2 - When I direct night actions, they usually happen in 1 of 2 scenarios (Yoshi did neither of those):
a) obvious directions that shouldn't really have to be said but I say anyway because I don't trust people to be smart ("watch the doctor", "protect the cop" and so on)
b) post-massclaim directions, when I try to tell which players are lying after all cards have been laid out on the table

This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did,

Answering PMC after lunch.

[safariguy5]

@new guy: is it drunk or intoxicated? I can't push this too much, but if you say one thing and mean another that is known as Lieing. I follow a LAL policy.

See what I meant, PMC? Maybe they were just uncomfortable confessing they are potheads and wanted to sound like they just took some extra beers, but that would be lying. And Yoshi follows a LAL policy.

@Rodion:
Argument 1) proves that I was playing unintelligently. I was either playing illogically or without considering all items of evidence. Unintelligent playing does not equate scum, although it can be a useful hint. I did not stop your fos as I realized it was a just fos and you had firmly caught me.

Argument 2) is false. Under no circumstances is directing actions scummy. There is a difference between vigging a player and asking for a vig. This is analogous to the difference between fos and vote.
Now, if new guy had been vigged, would it have been my fault? Only if I was the vig. (although he would have turned up scum, so we wouldn't have had this convo).

That's your opinion. In my opinion, directing actions may or may not be scummy. Pancakemix, for instance, has issues with me everytime I direct an action. He says it's always scummy.

And if you instigate someone into doing an action, the consequences of this action are your fault too (for good or for bad).

The comment about meta is to everyone in general.

Ok, I now understand your former post.

I do not understand why you conveniently forgot to adress this, though:

Here's the problem I see here. Rodion has been perfectly willing, even boastful about his ability to direct town actions. Now, he takes issue with Doom directing a vig action, which honestly sounds like a double standard here. If Rodion thinks it's acceptable to direct town actions, then he shouldn't discount other people doing the same thing.

unvote vote Rodion

Apples and oranges, Saf.

1 - Yoshi literally "sneaked" his direction in the last minutes/hours of the day.
2 - When I direct night actions, they usually happen in 1 of 2 scenarios (Yoshi did neither of those):
a) obvious directions that shouldn't really have to be said but I say anyway because I don't trust people to be smart ("watch the doctor", "protect the cop" and so on)
b) post-massclaim directions, when I try to tell which players are lying after all cards have been laid out on the table

This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did,

Answering PMC after lunch.

Why do I need to address your other point Rodion? You're basically saying "Oh, well I can do something but other people cannot". That's like saying, "Well I can murder and deal drugs, because I'm awesome, but other people can't and I will call the cops on them."

If you believe it's ok to direct night actions (which I don't), then anyone should be able to. You qualified your statement by using "usually", which means that people can do them outside of your two said scenarios. So no, under your own post, Doom didn't do anything you wouldn't do. Timing of a direction I believe is irrelevant, especially since it's not confirmed we have a vig, only a possibility. Could have been several things as brought up before.

[Rodion]

"It doesn't change the situation"? How come? Are you now saying it doesn't matter whether you lead a wagon or just join in the middle of it?

It would be if I had accused you of bandwaggoning, I said you were saying something for town cred and although having your vote first makes it a little harder to prove you could still achieve the same goal through doing it.

Except that you started your accusation by saying I did that because it was the "popular thing to do". And if nobody else had manifested their opinions on the subject, I could not know what the popular thing to do was in the first place.

You remind me of a girl I know who loves to twist peoples words. Yes it might not be a good thing if you were to stop them from being lynched but new guy was in very little danger of being lynched at that time.

There was no twisting involved. You used the word "always" to strengthen your argument. I weakened it by showing how it was wrong.

Again with the word twisting! It is pretty obvious it was a typo, I meant to write "others". Gimli and SG7 seemed wary because of the "lie" but neither seemed to suspect him based on the post doom did, everywhere and clever were both critical of dooms vote. I have to say I thought it was more popular than that, and perhaps I gave you a bit of a harsh time over that point.

Oh, those others! The others that did not join NG's wagon.

And I'm glad that you seem to be backing down on this popular thing, but, unfortunately, again for the wrong reasons. It doesn't matter how popular "defending NG" ended up being because I did that before I could sense other player's tendencies. Remember the talk about the 8 posts in between where nobody adressed the issue?

There were so many better plays than lying, if ng really was town there it would have been so much easier to call out doom on his ridiculous post. This seems to be going in circles. I'm going to leave it with; if newguy is town and he confirms he was lying in post-game chat then I will retire from mafia on CC as I have clearly lost all ability to read people.

That's a tough bet to take. And rather unwarranted, too, as not being able to read someone through a computer screen is no reason to doubt your abilities henceforth.

Town members do not have the goal of survival, or at least it is of less importance. Sure nobody wants to die but being overly worried about yourself is a scum tell, townies are aggressive and mafia are passive. Lying and manipulating the town (which would be what I would call it should ng never have intended to post anything) in order to ensure your survival is not an acceptable town play.

What if NG is the cop?

And what were the consequences of NG's hypothetical lie? That is, other than lowering the odds of the vig killing him. I fail to see any concrete malady that can be directly attributed to NG's hypothetical lie, so I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable town play.

Again you took one line from what I have said and twisted it. Regardless of whatever time it happened in you were still online and actively posting, so my questions stand.

No, sir, you are twisting the facts. I was online back when Yoshi was questioning NG. Seeing Yoshi question NG did not bother me. The more discussion, the merrier (well, usually - *reminds of the D1 Jgordon saga* ).

I was not online when Yoshi called for the vig, though.

A is fair enough, I have no problems with that.

B- I already asked, do you really believe doom was balsy enough to push that action and be confident of surviving the next day?

Yoshi is one of the boldest players I know. It is likely that, as mafia, he could have directed the vig while feeling confident that he'd survive.

Did you realize Yoshi does not even BELIEVE he should be held accountable in case someone had vigged NG and he had flipped town?

He made that clear when he said "directing the vig" is analogous to a "FOS", while vigging is analogous to "vote". Want more? This quote:

Now, if new guy had been vigged, would it have been my fault? Only if I was the vig. (although he would have turned up scum, so we wouldn't have had this convo).

See? Not his fault.

That is how he thinks.

He did make a post trying to compromise today. He wants us to lynch NG and, if he is wrong, he is willing to be N3 vigged/D4 lynched.

Would he have wiggle room to end up surviving if NG flips town? Certainly. Want me to show you?

Your posts are long enough to read ffs but it doesn't matter. Using meta as a defence is not read worthy in the first place, if you could explain your point from the previous game then fair play and if you can't explain it well then maybe you should change your play. I am not going to believe something is a townie action because you said "Look I have done this before". Meta does not work in your own defence because it is easily pre-planned, as soon as the bomb hammer landed at your door step you had a ready made excuse not to volunteer.

Placing my chips on my arrogant meta was the only way to get out of the hammering list without having to softclaim.

NG softclaimed a PR.
Gimli and you softclaimed vanilla.

Who do you think did the best job of keeping mafia in the dark (hint: he has a dinosaur avatar and his name is not DoomYoshi)?

[Rodion]

Why do I need to address your other point Rodion? You're basically saying "Oh, well I can do something but other people cannot". That's like saying, "Well I can murder and deal drugs, because I'm awesome, but other people can't and I will call the cops on them."

Check my quote again. I asked why you did not adress the other part of my post. Not that one.

The part after "This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did," is not relevant. I was asking you to adress the part before that. Thought I had made that clear enough.

If you believe it's ok to direct night actions (which I don't), then anyone should be able to. You qualified your statement by using "usually", which means that people can do them outside of your two said scenarios. So no, under your own post, Doom didn't do anything you wouldn't do. Timing of a direction I believe is irrelevant, especially since it's not confirmed we have a vig, only a possibility. Could have been several things as brought up before.

How is the timing irrelevant? Don't you see a difference between someone requesting a vig shot 3 days before the deadline and allowing everyone a good 72 hours to discuss it and someone requesting a vig shot 2 hours and 10 minutes before the deadline? The fact that the existence of the vig is not confirmed does not make it acceptable to make such a request that could not be reasonably appreciated by the rest of the players before N2 arrived.

[pmchugh]

Except that you started your accusation by saying I did that because it was the "popular thing to do". And if nobody else had manifested their opinions on the subject, I could not know what the popular thing to do was in the first place.

I retract that part of my statement and leave it that you were trying to gain town cred by saying it.

Town members do not have the goal of survival, or at least it is of less importance. Sure nobody wants to die but being overly worried about yourself is a scum tell, townies are aggressive and mafia are passive. Lying and manipulating the town (which would be what I would call it should ng never have intended to post anything) in order to ensure your survival is not an acceptable town play.

What if NG is the cop?

And what were the consequences of NG's hypothetical lie? That is, other than lowering the odds of the vig killing him. I fail to see any concrete malady that can be directly attributed to NG's hypothetical lie, so I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable town play.

It is still unacceptable to repeatedly lie to the town in that manner, unless there are no better alternatives.

No, sir, you are twisting the facts. I was online back when Yoshi was questioning NG. Seeing Yoshi question NG did not bother me. The more discussion, the merrier (well, usually - *reminds of the D1 Jgordon saga* ).

Well this is what it boils down to then, to me it seemed like doom (in a rather strange manner) either believed him to be scum or had particular reason to want to kill him, to you it seemed like he was just scum trying to get a townie NK'd.

He did make a post trying to compromise today. He wants us to lynch NG and, if he is wrong, he is willing to be N3 vigged/D4 lynched.

Why would mafia care this much about one character? At worst it smells of a lyncher esc role, unless ng is an uber power but given this is ghostlys first game I doubt it.

Placing my chips on my arrogant meta was the only way to get out of the hammering list without having to softclaim.

So you admit that you were trying to avoid being on the hammer list and using meta was simply a reason to give to other people?

you softclaimed vanilla.

I soft claimed nothing, I would not soft claim as I think it is a poor strategy in most situations.

[DoomYoshi]

Ok, so 1 of Rodion's three soft claims has been destroyed. 1 was apparent to many.

Can you provide the soft claim of gimli. Does gimli have any comments on this?


Perhaps discussion would have been better to allow when I tried to direct the vig. However, I didn't set the deadline, I only commented after new guy practically gave himself away. It was too late for a case but I had already decided I had heard enough.

Timing is irrelevant since it is largely based on circumstance, at least in this case.

@shield: I have gotten Rodion lynched before, although he turned out town.

[pmchugh]

Ghostly if you are gonna put a politician in the game the least you could do was provide vote counts.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Ghostly if you are gonna put a politician in the game the least you could do was provide vote counts.

guys stop dogging on him he is out of town and wont be on till tommorow lol.

[pmchugh]

Ghostly if you are gonna put a politician in the game the least you could do was provide vote counts.

guys stop dogging on him he is out of town and wont be on till tommorow lol.

Suck up

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Ghostly if you are gonna put a politician in the game the least you could do was provide vote counts.

guys stop dogging on him he is out of town and wont be on till tommorow lol.

Suck up

he is feeding me tommorow. so i have to

[Rodion]

I retract that part of my statement and leave it that you were trying to gain town cred by saying it.

Understood. But then you are assuming I protected NG to gain town cred, which proves me as mafia. And out of all possibilities that may have made me protect NG, you assume it was the town cred one because you think I'm mafia. Which means you are using a premise ("Rodion is mafia") to draw the same conclusion ("Rodion is mafia"). Begging the question.

It is still unacceptable to repeatedly lie to the town in that manner, unless there are no better alternatives.

I don't know how other players feel about the whole LAL situation, but it is simplistic to assume there are better alternatives from a "NG hypothetical liar" perspective.

He could:
a) keep lying, insist he merely forgot and never have the opposite proven otherwise
b) come clean, explain why he lied in the first place (to dissuade the vig from shooting him) and hope most of the town has common sense not to lynch him for that.

A only depends on him, while B is something he cannot control.

Take Yoshi for instance. Yoshi follows a LAL policy. He was pretty clear about that. To him it doesn't matter if you did drugs and tried to dodge from the embarassment by saying you had beer instead. If it's a lie, he'll lynch you. Why should NG come clean and gamble that most players are unlike Yoshi when he can keep lying and never be caught (because we are arguing about something that cannot be proven)?

From a game theory standpoint, option A is the logical one, not B.

Well this is what it boils down to then, to me it seemed like doom (in a rather strange manner) either believed him to be scum or had particular reason to want to kill him, to you it seemed like he was just scum trying to get a townie NK'd.

Correct.

Why would mafia care this much about one character? At worst it smells of a lyncher esc role, unless ng is an uber power but given this is ghostlys first game I doubt it.

I can only speculate.

1 - Yoshi thought he could get a freebie NK while managing to stay alive. He could stay alive by:
a) hoping a cop finds someone else guilty, correctly or not
b) WIFOMing the situation, much like you are doing now ("if I were mafia, would I care so much about NG? If you can't answer yes, it means I'm town")
c) turning the tide on a patsy that BWed him the following day ("ok, guys, I know I said you could kill me today if NG flipped town, but see how Player X took this 'easy lynch bait' without actually bothering to comment about anything else? He must be scum")
d) hoping NG is an anti-town character (SK, for instance)
e) I could probably reach letter "z" if I wanted to present crazy busdriver/godfather/lightning rod alternatives, but I hope 4, plus the knowledge that there are more out there, are enough.

2 - Just like Jak claimed town gets a special prize if Hitler dies before a certain deadline, mafia could want a certain townie dead before a certain deadline. Maybe they've found out that townie is NG.

3 - Maybe Dazza visited NG. Mafia suspects NG is a PGO. Yoshi planned to direct the vig there, perhaps also the doctor (in case Jak felt he wanted to block the vig) and knows who else more?

As you can see, I can speculate loads of things. I don't know exactly what went through Yoshi's mind when he called for the vig (again, something we'll only be able to comprehend in the post-game discussion), but it's scummy enough to have my vote once you consider the pre-existing FOS for voting Jak.

So you admit that you were trying to avoid being on the hammer list and using meta was simply a reason to give to other people?

I obviously did not want to hammer.
I used that convenient meta to explain why I was not going to hammer without having to give mafia the advantage of seeing me softclaim.

Yes, it is an admission. I fail to see how admitting that is suspicious, though.

I soft claimed nothing, I would not soft claim as I think it is a poor strategy in most situations.

Doesn't matter how much you deny it, you did. By volunteering to hammer you've stated stuff. Anyone with half a brain knows you are not the cop. You wouldn't be a role whose death would cause serious losses to the town either, like a lover or a beloved princess. Hopefully, you'd keep quiet as another "minor" power role while waiting for vanillas to volunteer. Regardless, I can guarantee you are not a major power role.

Unless, of course, you knew your vote had been stolen, which meant you only offered to hammer because you knew that simply would not happen.

[Rodion]

Ok, so 1 of Rodion's three soft claims has been destroyed. 1 was apparent to many.

Can you provide the soft claim of gimli. Does gimli have any comments on this?

As for who hammers I would ask it not to be jak for obvious reasons. I am willing to do it. Other than myself saf would be a decent option, claimed VT and in my eyes suspicious.

you know what i think i will hammer as i am not a power role and if i die good as i have been getting busy in life let me know guys you all still want to hammer.

[safariguy5]

I was answering the part you were talking about Rodion, per your post (and I'm paraphrasing it a bit).

"When directing night actions, I usually only do them under 2 scenarios."

The keyword being usually. The implication therefore being that you could do them under other scenarios too. Which is what Doom did. Now, if you had said you "only" did them under those two scenarios, than I can see why you say that. But the qualification of the statement means that you potentially could do the same thing as Yoshi did.

As for Yoshi saying "vig kill NG", that's something of a WIFOM situation as to whether mafia or town would say that. M for Mafia run by Doom and Sully had shield say something to the effect of "oh, I'm playing something I've never played before" right before night and as mafia, that was enough for us to kill him because I knew he had played VT before. That's usually a WIFOM ploy which I honestly don't see as being much different from what Doom did.