Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[new guy1]

To save time looking for scum instead of an unworthy candidate I suppose. I for one stand by JG, as he doesnt have to have malicious intent, especially if we can get scum instead of him. Why rush to lynch when deadline is like, a week from now?

fastposted.

[pmchugh]

Jgordon, the point of a BW (according to you, someone else can find the post if they don't believe me) is to gain information, not necessarily for a lynch. So, why must our bandwagon on you end in a lynch and no information?

By saying you refuse to claim, you are proving yourself wrong in the debate that dominated the early day. I just want to know what makes you so special that the rules of BW don't apply?

I don't even get the point of Dooms post. It seems like he has merged gordon, jak and me all together in making this point. A pretty illogical post earns you a pretty big FOS.

Having said this jgordon isn't really helping himself much, that is twice now he has made a strange threat against people voting him.

Vote for me I will claim quick,lol real damn quick,some of you know it.

Please feel free to Bw me. you may not know how I will react but a few do LOL

Fastposted

LOL this is for those of you who think your powers of reasoning and deduction are so superior LOL Curt Lowens survivor poland. Now freaking lynch me or go to someone with scum tells.

Jesus I thought I was past the stage of getting pissed at you ever so arrogant a holes.

Why not wait until people have to force you to claim? All you just did was stifle a path of investigation and information! I guess as a survivor you wouldn't care tho.. unvote I believe you and my case is perfectly explained by survivor. Also why are you getting mad at people for mistaking a survivor for scum on day 1? The game ain't easy and I am sure you have made errors yourself, there is no need to call people "arrogant a holes".

Fastposted again.

Mine was a typo as well. I meant to say jak. My bad. However, it caused jgordon to claim and sealed his fate.

Vote jgordon

Care to explain why you don't believe his claim? I think its believable and given that you have seemed to be pressuring him on bad logic (as of the top of this post) leads me to vote doom for trying to force a lynch.

[jgordon1111]

LOL this is for those of you who think your powers of reasoning and deduction are so superior LOL Curt Lowens survivor poland. Now freaking lynch me or go to someone with scum tells.

Jesus I thought I was past the stage of getting pissed at you ever so arrogant a holes.

Whoa! Calm down. Nothing is even happening quickly against you right now. Claiming survivor is an awful claim for you, IMO. Lynching a claimed survivor is a great move for town on Day 1.

+1 you are a 100% correct and doom jumped on it quick,watch who jumps in fast those will be your targets most likely besides the hammer.

More than one way to skin scum LOL.

For those of you that havent played with me this will be a learning curve for you and your so called mafia abilities,try and make good use of it.

fast posted

[jak111]

I gave you congrats on the baby/father thing a while back if you seen, which is why a couple of my posts back I wasn't going to go at you for inactivity, who knows, maybe you're still catching up but I said it in caps that it was the reason I wasn't after your inactivity.

I wasn't planning on bringing it in until you quoted it. I just originally posted it to let people know I wasn't going to be on till this afternoon or later, which I already mentioned who helped me feel better enough to continue posting and reading.

PMC has provided more than I can say than other people. He's actually pointed out JG's quotes a lot more clearer for starters. Also he's even keeping tabs on everybody like me. So if he continues to do that and not be one sided then I believe him to be a valuable asset to the town. I do not believe meta game techniques are 'intel' but they do help see how people act throughout the games with them (which is why I wanna be unpredictable).
I think that paragraph answered all 3 questions out front or in between the lines.

Oh, he knows what I mean.

Also read PMC's last post very carefully, he said something all of you seem to miss. Which I give PMC a thumbs up for being able to catch it perhaps.

As for jg, he's claimed, that's all I wanted for today from him. I'll give him another day or so, so we can figure more about him. Unvote.

Fastposted x3
Nice Doom.

I see everywhere, thought you meant you made the mistake at the end. Still, my point on you just wanting me out of the picture is valid.

Also a note to Doom, we should actually let him live, his role seems legit and we got what we needed out of him.

Fastposted again x3
Well, I'm not going to claim besides a soft claim Doom, go to the sort thing and sort it by author of post, then look at all of my comments carefully, see if there's anything you can pick up, if not, then you don't get the info until I'm dead.

+1 with New Guy. Why are people rushing jg now? He's claimed, let's look for something else.

Fastposted again x2 (Damn I need to type faster...)

Vote Doom I agree, you're trying to force a lynch when he's claimed already.

[everywhere116]

Mine was a typo as well. I meant to say jak. My bad. However, it caused jgordon to claim and sealed his fate.

Vote jgordon

Care to explain why you don't believe his claim? I think its believable and given that you have seemed to be pressuring him on bad logic (as of the top of this post) leads me to vote doom for trying to force a lynch.

Meh, I'm not so sure, survivors are fickle creatures who will normally side with whoever is winning at the time, and more often than not they side with the scum because of a quicker win and less likelihood of being nightkilled. Still, lynching someone who we believe to be scum is better than lynching the survivor, so I won't vote for jg yet. After all, we have a week left.

[new guy1]

Everywhere^

Survivor's only purpose is to survive, therefore the only thing I see that is common with survivors is that they are easily convinced and will join in on bandwagons as long as it will help them along. I do not mind sharing my win with them, so long as it means I win. I agree that if they side with scum they have less chance of being NK'ed, but I disagree that it is a faster win with scum, and I dont think that it matters how long it takes to win for them, so long as they win.

[safariguy5]

Mine was a typo as well. I meant to say jak. My bad. However, it caused jgordon to claim and sealed his fate.

Vote jgordon

Care to explain why you don't believe his claim? I think its believable and given that you have seemed to be pressuring him on bad logic (as of the top of this post) leads me to vote doom for trying to force a lynch.

Meh, I'm not so sure, survivors are fickle creatures who will normally side with whoever is winning at the time, and more often than not they side with the scum because of a quicker win and less likelihood of being nightkilled. Still, lynching someone who we believe to be scum is better than lynching the survivor, so I won't vote for jg yet. After all, we have a week left.

This is true. If we get towards LYLO, survivors will be more likely to side with scum. If we really don't have anything else by the end of this day, then I'm willing to follow a survivor lynch over a town lynch.

As for jak's defense, calling everyone who's voting you skimming and then making personal attacks is not the way to prove your innocence. How can we be skimming if we quoted your posts? You can argue the context all you want, but I suggest you put qualifiers if you believe your meaning is different from ours. I said that I'm not against a no lynch (which basically is what a split vote is) but only if we get claims. Now that we do have a claim (from jgordon), we have to decide if that's enough information for the day. But at the point of your post, we had not gotten information, so suggesting a split vote giving us information is weak reasoning.

The reason it's weak reasoning is that scum can hide on both bandwagons. If that's the case, it's more difficult to figure out who's scum. Of course, they could set up a WIFOM situation and all bandwagon on the same person. Bottom line for me is this: unless we get information via claims, voting patterns will be of minimal use in the early game. Perhaps in the mid to late game, they will be useful, but they can't really help us now.

I think jgordons comments about mafia playstyle also a bit distasteful. I don't know if you meant it that way, but that post came off as pretty arrogant, cocky, and condescending. I'd hope that we all keep things civil here, and I realize that ad hominem attacks aren't reasons to vote someone, but I'd hate for mafia forums to turn into flame fests.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Hey guys I am so sorry for my inactivity and am only typing from an iPad cause my laptop is at home and I am out of the state...wish I could have the mod confirm this but he doesn't even know I am as I didn't tell anyone as I didn't know till the day I was leaving (yesterday) to see my nana aunt uncle and cousin in massachusetts so I will read as soon as I get home later tonight thanks for your patience

[DoomYoshi]

Jgordon, the point of a BW (according to you, someone else can find the post if they don't believe me) is to gain information, not necessarily for a lynch. So, why must our bandwagon on you end in a lynch and no information?

By saying you refuse to claim, you are proving yourself wrong in the debate that dominated the early day. I just want to know what makes you so special that the rules of BW don't apply?

I don't even get the point of Dooms post. It seems like he has merged gordon, jak and me all together in making this point. A pretty illogical post earns you a pretty big FOS.

Having said this jgordon isn't really helping himself much, that is twice now he has made a strange threat against people voting him.

Vote for me I will claim quick,lol real damn quick,some of you know it.

Please feel free to Bw me. you may not know how I will react but a few do LOL

Fastposted

LOL this is for those of you who think your powers of reasoning and deduction are so superior LOL Curt Lowens survivor poland. Now freaking lynch me or go to someone with scum tells.

Jesus I thought I was past the stage of getting pissed at you ever so arrogant a holes.

Why not wait until people have to force you to claim? All you just did was stifle a path of investigation and information! I guess as a survivor you wouldn't care tho.. unvote I believe you and my case is perfectly explained by survivor. Also why are you getting mad at people for mistaking a survivor for scum on day 1? The game ain't easy and I am sure you have made errors yourself, there is no need to call people "arrogant a holes".

Fastposted again.

Mine was a typo as well. I meant to say jak. My bad. However, it caused jgordon to claim and sealed his fate.

Vote jgordon

Care to explain why you don't believe his claim? I think its believable and given that you have seemed to be pressuring him on bad logic (as of the top of this post) leads me to vote doom for trying to force a lynch.

I already told you, in the first post you quoted replace jgordon with jak. A survivor claim is believable, sure. However, survivor is a scum role. Jak still hasn't explained why he is immune to his own rules about BWs. A soft claim isn't an excuse.

[DoomYoshi]

Jak, the point of a BW (according to you, someone else can find the post if they don't believe me) is to gain information, not necessarily for a lynch. So, why must our bandwagon on you end in a lynch and no information?

By saying you refuse to claim, you are proving yourself wrong in the debate that dominated the early day. I just want to know what makes you so special that the rules of BW don't apply?

Fixed. EBWOP for those who are too skimmy to realize what has been pointed out 3 times now.

[jak111]

I'm not immune, I've claimed in my soft claims. If you can't find them that is not my problem. PMC found them I believe and that's good enough for me, for me claiming

However Doom, you go on about me failing to do something you ask, when I've done it a bit more quieter than what you'd like. You've failed to bother doing my suggestion and looking at each of my posts slowly. So until you do so, this pointing me out for not claiming up front is pointless when I have claimed up front, I've just been quiet about it .

[new guy1]

@Jak-

I think I get what your soft claiming. But I am not going to point it out, Ill let them try. But if you are forced to claim, I think I can back it up slightly just by the post I caught onto.

[jak111]

@Jak-

I think I get what your soft claiming. But I am not going to point it out, Ill let them try. But if you are forced to claim, I think I can back it up slightly just by the post I caught onto.

Thanks bud. Doom seems more and more scummy. A true townie would actually put the time in to see what another townie is saying. Otherwise their just making more targets for the scum if the scum knows who's who.

[ghostly447]

Official Simplified Vote Count

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch

Jgordon – Dazza, Jak, Doom
new guy1 – Clever
Ragian – Rodion
/ -
DoomYoshi – CMS, PMC, Jak
Thechuck51 – Ragian,
PMC – /
Rodion – Spartacus, Leehar
CLEVER –
Jak – Safariguy, chapcrap, everywhere



Deadline set for 4/29/12 at around 9pm EST.

*Note there was one that I missed that was included as if I had originally caught it.
*Also note the deadline is flexible should the majority seem to want it extended 24 hours before the end of it. No need to rush your votes to lynch anyone until you are sure you want to, etc.

[new guy1]

That is true. And I will state again, as long as you claim what I think you are softclaiming, I will back you up. Otherwise, I do not see any other option other then to think you are just trying to cover your tracks by giving small hints of something... If that makes sense.

Fastposted

[Leehar]

unvote but Rodion retains a FoS from me for just making a coupla posts with many OT references thrown in.

With regards to jg and jak, was it just me or when thrown into a corner, they both seemed to want to attack every which way? I'm sure there's something to be gained from that Omgus'ing, also considering the fact that the claims and half-claims seemingly have happened simultaneously? How did 2 different BW's got to these states?

[DoomYoshi]

I do realize what you are soft claiming. I realized it when you started talking about directing the doctor. My point is that you spent the first half of the day saying the point of a BW is to get a claim and then the second half of the day saying that rule doesn't apply to you. I haven't voted for you. My point is that you can't say one rule and then break it in the same game. It doesn't matter if you are the doctor; if you do stupid shit like that, town will tear itself apart.

This further backs up what I said earlier. The morning conversation was not only unproductive, but also counterproductive. Pmc now throws himself into the mix by thinking he was part of the misnamed post, in other words pmc's point was that the point of a BW is to get a claim, not necessarily a lynch. Which means during the entire 'argument' this morning, you were both arguing the same point. If that's not counterproductive, I don't know what is.

[pmchugh]

Jak, the point of a BW (according to you, someone else can find the post if they don't believe me) is to gain information, not necessarily for a lynch. So, why must our bandwagon on you end in a lynch and no information?

By saying you refuse to claim, you are proving yourself wrong in the debate that dominated the early day. I just want to know what makes you so special that the rules of BW don't apply?

Fixed. EBWOP for those who are too skimmy to realize what has been pointed out 3 times now.

It still makes no sense what so ever.

That was my point, not jaks. In fact he was arguing against bandwagons.

He never refused to claim, he merely said he would wait until L-2 before doing so, which is standard play.

Also if there is a vig, he may consider killing jgordon tonight. Survivors do end the game quicker; e.g. 3 scum + survivor + 4 town is a win for mafia where as 3 scum + 4 town and no survivor is still ongoing.

Fastposted, perhaps I have missed something somewhere. Can you please provide quotes of what your post contains?

p.s. Loving the activity in this game.

[DoomYoshi]

[quote=jak]
Then lets move onto what you said about my vote, sure there can be a bandwagon on him, I for one just want info for the first day since the one you wanted to bandwagon also can simply lie and say he's the doc or something (Which I hope our doc does a good job this game like MoB did in the HE mafia ) and if no one counter claims him he will easily get away! So for the first day, unlike you who thinks his ideas are correct all the time and trying to push down a SINGLE guy who's voting someone else (when there's many), I just want a claim or two that we can check into tonight.
[/quote]

Here jak is saying that BWs for information are ok, which was also pmchugh's point. So one or the other are idiots, and the argument was about absolutely nothing. I fos Leehar for stirring the pot.

[quote=jak]
I'm not interested in claiming, because if I do I'm as good as dead tonight anyhow. So either kill me now or tonight, either way I know I'm not making it to D2.
[/quote]

Here he says he isn't going to claim. On second read, I did misread it a bit. He did ALSO say he would wait until L-2, but that was earlier.

Note that I have never supported a lynch on jak. I just think that he is being hypocritical and not serving town's interests in the day discussions. As for my vote on jgordon, it stands. We have no idea if mafia have fakeclaims and a survivor lynch is a pretty good day 1 lynch. If we find a better target, I will gladly switch.

[DoomYoshi]

Then lets move onto what you said about my vote, sure there can be a bandwagon on him, I for one just want info for the first day since the one you wanted to bandwagon also can simply lie and say he's the doc or something (Which I hope our doc does a good job this game like MoB did in the HE mafia ) and if no one counter claims him he will easily get away! So for the first day, unlike you who thinks his ideas are correct all the time and trying to push down a SINGLE guy who's voting someone else (when there's many), I just want a claim or two that we can check into tonight.

Here jak is saying that BWs for information are ok, which was also pmchugh's point. So one or the other are idiots, and the argument was about absolutely nothing. I fos Leehar for stirring the pot.

I'm not interested in claiming, because if I do I'm as good as dead tonight anyhow. So either kill me now or tonight, either way I know I'm not making it to D2.

Here he says he isn't going to claim. On second read, I did misread it a bit. He did ALSO say he would wait until L-2, but that was earlier.

Note that I have never supported a lynch on jak. I just think that he is being hypocritical and not serving town's interests in the day discussions. As for my vote on jgordon, it stands. We have no idea if mafia have fakeclaims and a survivor lynch is a pretty good day 1 lynch. If we find a better target, I will gladly switch.

EBWOP

[pmchugh]

Then lets move onto what you said about my vote, sure there can be a bandwagon on him, I for one just want info for the first day since the one you wanted to bandwagon also can simply lie and say he's the doc or something (Which I hope our doc does a good job this game like MoB did in the HE mafia ) and if no one counter claims him he will easily get away! So for the first day, unlike you who thinks his ideas are correct all the time and trying to push down a SINGLE guy who's voting someone else (when there's many), I just want a claim or two that we can check into tonight.

Here jak is saying that BWs for information are ok, which was also pmchugh's point. So one or the other are idiots, and the argument was about absolutely nothing. I fos Leehar for stirring the pot.

That is totally convoluted. Jak was arguing that BWs were not needed and that he was trying to get information with a single vote. You are totally taking that line out of context. You completely reversed his point in fact and I can quote several other posts which place this one into the context of arguing against BWs if need be.

Here he says he isn't going to claim. On second read, I did misread it a bit. He did ALSO say he would wait until L-2, but that was earlier.

Fair enough here, these two points do contradict each other.

[DoomYoshi]

Then lets move onto what you said about my vote, sure there can be a bandwagon on him, I for one just want info for the first day since the one you wanted to bandwagon also can simply lie and say he's the doc or something (Which I hope our doc does a good job this game like MoB did in the HE mafia ) and if no one counter claims him he will easily get away! So for the first day, unlike you who thinks his ideas are correct all the time and trying to push down a SINGLE guy who's voting someone else (when there's many), I just want a claim or two that we can check into tonight.

Here jak is saying that BWs for information are ok, which was also pmchugh's point. So one or the other are idiots, and the argument was about absolutely nothing. I fos Leehar for stirring the pot.

That is totally convoluted. Jak was arguing that BWs were not needed and that he was trying to get information with a single vote. You are totally taking that line out of context. You completely reversed his point in fact and I can quote several other posts which place this one into the context of arguing against BWs if need be.

Here he says he isn't going to claim. On second read, I did misread it a bit. He did ALSO say he would wait until L-2, but that was earlier.

Fair enough here, these two points do contradict each other.

It is exactly convoluted. The entire conversation was convoluted. Jak still hasn't provided a concise piece of reasoning on what his opinion on BWs are or what backs that opinion up. According to jak, all the town players should just softclaim their roles day 1 and that is how we will get information. I repeat, I am not trying to get jak lynched, I just want him to play better. To use valid reasoning and followable logic. Is that too much to ask from our pro-town hero?

[jak111]

I do realize what you are soft claiming. I realized it when you started talking about directing the doctor. My point is that you spent the first half of the day saying the point of a BW is to get a claim and then the second half of the day saying that rule doesn't apply to you. I haven't voted for you. My point is that you can't say one rule and then break it in the same game. It doesn't matter if you are the doctor; if you do stupid shit like that, town will tear itself apart.

This further backs up what I said earlier. The morning conversation was not only unproductive, but also counterproductive. Pmc now throws himself into the mix by thinking he was part of the misnamed post, in other words pmc's point was that the point of a BW is to get a claim, not necessarily a lynch. Which means during the entire 'argument' this morning, you were both arguing the same point. If that's not counterproductive, I don't know what is.

Really now, you're going to point it out Doom, BRAVO, give the scum a power kill. My vote stays on Doom now. If he was town he wouldn't just blurt things out publicly if not many people are able to catch onto it. No, wanting to get rid of the one thing able to protect you is not serving the town's 'interest' Doom.

Also, since you were able to read into my soft claims, why bother asking for a claim? Soft claiming is the same as claiming just a bit more quiet. I never said that others couldn't soft claim. Quote me and post the page number of me saying that even once Doom and I will gladly vote myself. Seeing as I did not do so, your counter productive statements are no way useful to town.

I'm pretty sure New Guy and PMC can also confirm my soft claims. I bet they could quote more than 3 of them. The point is, is that knowing my soft claim you proceed to fight against me than support me. So what side are you on Doom? Town or Mafia? Seems unlikely a townie would proceed to question someone when they know the answer.

Fastposted,
For being so wise Doom you seem to know how to go about trying to help out the town. If you wish me to play better do so through subtle hints, not aggressive accusations. Thus, you are proving to me to either be an anti-town town player, or mafia. Either of which I'd be happy to get rid of D1 to give the townies a chance to win this.

[new guy1]

I can confirm this was my suspicion. I cannot seem to find the post, but it was the wording that I caught onto when you said something about you wont protect anyone (in arguements and in litteral meaning).

[new guy1]

Again, I didn't make a big deal about PMC not pressuring Chuck, do the town a favor and go back and re-read it all. You sir, Mr.Skimmer need to do your homework on people before winging it so much . Aye, I did protect jg, it's what town mates do. Unlike you, I wish to protect the townies. If it is wrong to do so then I guess I shouldn't protect anyone?

Deleted the rest of the quote, but here it is.