The SquirrelMasters' Quest (25/25) Night 1~A quick getaway

[pancakemix]

safari was acusing me of steering away the case while i had even better and more reasons, and now you defend safari for doing the same what he accused me of, and doing it twice?

You say that like I was against it before. There's nothing wrong with it and I don't know why you're attacking each other over it.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Ah, fight getting serious already? Time to steal the good stuff. *inches towards the key to the fine liqueur cabinet*

I agree that vic is a bit scummy, not particularly for joking about a retreat, but for joking about a retreat from a disgustingly righteous perspective, I agree it could be an actual slip up from someone who got a "good role" and thought it was town. so fos and a boot to the head etc.

On to the general case, I'm not sure if it is a scum move for certain, I can't see why he would advocate his horridly peaceful sappy sentiment to such lengths if just an attempt at trickery, but for certain it seems a bad move.

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

I see little room for doubt that he has prior experience in mafia, one would hardly think an "inexperienced player" would use statistical arguments on typical setups, theoretical reasoning on the traditional fundamentals of mafia, and mafia based (albeit foreign to this site) slang-

Hitting a PR with a RL is stupid.????
Hitting a post restriction with a real life is stupid? What do you mean?

You play mafia often? Power Role/Random Lynch

- if one was just some random newbie who needs to be coddled.
Bar stool of suspicion on Tails for skimming and possibly defending General.

Perhaps noob wasn't the proper word... it's still amateur, though. And boring. Anybody who seriously thinks that follow-the-cop is a fun game is an amateur. What is the point? I'm just supposed to sit by and hope for a guilty, and then vote a player if the cop actually gets one. There's no case-building, no incentive to search through tells, nothing. It then just becomes a game of numbers. Which brings me to your post... anybody can throw out statistical arguments, in fact it's pretty easy when they aren't tied to anything.

-Tails

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice.

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

I pretty much agree with what's been said about Tails, though I'd point out that it was more that 2112 was saying things that coming from a newb would just be illogical. It makes no sense not to vote for him if you don't think he's got experience.

That said, it's better if that voting doesn't get out of hand, and so I'll hold off on voting tails for now pending his response.

I addressed this in my last post, but to reiterate, it was an amateur stunt, and I treated it as such... Even if 2112 is the most bad ass player on some other site, he is still clearly a newbie here. I merely try to be the sole voice of reason here, which, if anybody paid attention, was in my first post about 2112. I wasn't willing to lynch him because of the no lynch. Now we have a claimed doc outed.

As for /'s implication about me defending a townie (assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it... Which is also why nobody should be buying into it just yet. It's like the religion argument... can't disprove a deity, can you? Doesn't mean he/it/the link exists.

The rest of you on the wagon are just BWing, so I see no need to even respond to your posts.

-Tails

[thehippo8]

The last time I saw something like ...

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice. ... assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it...

... the person turned out to be the Mafia God Father!

Sorry, Tail, but I find your arguments and responses unconvincing.

[MoB Deadly]

The last time I saw something like ...

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice. ... assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it...

... the person turned out to be the Mafia God Father!

Sorry, Tail, but I find your arguments and responses unconvincing.

I also do not think he defended very well either FOS Tails

[TA1LGUNN3R]

The last time I saw something like ...

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice. ... assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it...

... the person turned out to be the Mafia God Father!

Sorry, Tail, but I find your arguments and responses unconvincing.

I also do not think he defended very well either FOS Tails

Fail. First of all, I think you should consider the charges made against me. You've got skimming, lurking, and defending another player.

Skimming

Not true, and I defended against it. You two have ignored it. Please read the posts.

Lurking

Hard to prove on your part. Didn't have much to say, especially since everyone else said the same thing pretty much, regarding 2112's play.

Defending another player

Again, I already addressed this. The fact that you can't recognize the properties of an argument does not change its validity or non-validity. I charge you with disproving the argument at this stage in the game, D1 with no investigations or dead players. The point is that it's a bullshit argument on D1. I could very well argue that MoB has defended thehippo with his affirmation post, and you can't disprove it.

Second, if y'all are going to make a case against me, put some effort into it. Don't post inane one-liners that obviously took no thought.

-Tails

[/]

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

protect the innoc-*vomits*

As for /'s implication about me defending a townie (assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it... Which is also why nobody should be buying into it just yet. It's like the religion argument... can't disprove a deity, can you? Doesn't mean he/it/the link exists.

Oh yeah? If there is no Murder God, then how do you explain this Dark Dagger of +3 Backstabbery I got when I killed that unicorn?
anyways...getting off topic here.

Perhaps noob wasn't the proper word... it's still amateur, though. And boring. Anybody who seriously thinks that follow-the-cop is a fun game is an amateur. What is the point? I'm just supposed to sit by and hope for a guilty, and then vote a player if the cop actually gets one. There's no case-building, no incentive to search through tells, nothing. It then just becomes a game of numbers. Which brings me to your post... anybody can throw out statistical arguments, in fact it's pretty easy when they aren't tied to anything.

-Tails

So if you are advocating playing the game (which I agree with of course) what exactly have you been waiting for all these past days?
Why have you been avoiding the thread until just now? (coincidently when you are being pressured)
Have you been paying attention enough to have found a valid day one target?

[thehippo8]

...if y'all are going to make a case against me, put some effort into it. Don't post inane one-liners that obviously took no thought.

You concluded that I suggested you were skimming, lurking or defending. No, I actually implied you sounded defensive, reactionary and obfuscatory. It's an interesting tactic to set up things you can defend againstand ignore the actual criticisms. Nice that you would call me inane, but I guess that goes with the territory. "Look at everyone else but me" kind-a-stuff. My comment was a [i]feeling[/] I had, but you are doing well to confirm my feeling and providing your own confirmations to my comments. Nice one!

Click image to enlarge.

[safariguy5]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

this is actually the second time safari is trying to steer away from the main case. while not contributing to a new case.

Er, no he isn't.He gave his reasons why he didn't buy into the Tails case. That's perfectly reasonable, and there's no reason why we can't have multiple candidates at once. Methinks you're trying to read too much into this.

safari was acusing me of steering away the case while i had even better and more reasons, and now you defend safari for doing the same what he accused me of, and doing it twice?

For the last time, I wasn't accusing you of steering the case away, I said that you were fine to bring another case because you didn't buy theGeneral case. Part of it was that you were voting for TheGeneral and brought up another case which was a bit confusing. I said that I didn't buy the tails case and was following what I believed to be scummy. For someone to disagree with the main case is not scummy, especially if they explain why they don't believe the case and they present an alternative.

[zimmah]

exactly how is randomly voting VS without explanation presenting an alternative, do you have reasons to back up your vote on sully?

not that i really think sully isn't scummy or anything, but then again, sully is scummy in all his games.

[safariguy5]

exactly how is randomly voting VS without explanation presenting an alternative, do you have reasons to back up your vote on sully?

not that i really think sully isn't scummy or anything, but then again, sully is scummy in all his games.

Did you read my post where I laid out my reasons for voting Sully? Do I need to repeat myself again? Chap made a nice summary of his posts, but basically, not really adding to the discussion while just posting a bunch to show activity.

And just because Sully is scummy every game does not mean that he's town every game. Sooner or later, he's probably going to be mafia in one game and we'd just give him a free pass because that's his M.O?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Oh yeah? If there is no Murder God, then how do you explain this Dark Dagger of +3 Backstabbery I got when I killed that unicorn?

Precisely. That's likely the best argument you'll get for pro-Tails-is-defending-2112. It's nonsensical.

So if you are advocating playing the game (which I agree with of course) what exactly have you been waiting for all these past days?
Why have you been avoiding the thread until just now? (coincidently when you are being pressured)
Have you been paying attention enough to have found a valid day one target?

Ouch. tbh, I kinda lost interest and didn't feel the need to add anything when 2112 was under fire. It's not like I would've posted anything really worthwhile. If I had posted, it would've just been in league with Saf et al, meaning a criticism of 2112's gameplay.

...if y'all are going to make a case against me, put some effort into it. Don't post inane one-liners that obviously took no thought.

You concluded that I suggested you were skimming, lurking or defending. No, I actually implied you sounded defensive, reactionary and obfuscatory. It's an interesting tactic to set up things you can defend againstand ignore the actual criticisms.

o rly? Your post history speaks otherwise:

Agreed, I support /'s insight ... attack tail

You specifically said you supported /'s case, which rested on the skimming, lurking, and defending:

In summary, lurking, skimming, buddying, scumarining, respond and prove you are lurking, or don't and prove you don't care.

... so now you're skimming as well as BWing. Nice. So in your eye I can't defend against the actual charges leveled at me (which you supported), but must defend against charges that don't exist. C'mon guy.

Nice that you would call me inane, but I guess that goes with the territory. "Look at everyone else but me" kind-a-stuff. My comment was a [i]feeling[/] I had, but you are doing well to confirm my feeling and providing your own confirmations to my comments. Nice one!

I call 'em like I see 'em.

-Tails

[thehippo8]

@ tail ... maybe you missed my post of Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:43 pm

The last time I saw something like ...

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice. ... assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it...

... the person turned out to be the Mafia God Father!

Sorry, Tail, but I find your arguments and responses unconvincing.

We seem to be talking past each other. You are fixated on the earlier post but I moved and and continue to do so. Would be great if you could make more of an effort than just saying that the claim is too hard. This is D1, surely you can make more of an effort than being dismissive?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

We seem to be talking past each other. You are fixated on the earlier post but I moved and and continue to do so. Would be great if you could make more of an effort than just saying that the claim is too hard. This is D1, surely you can make more of an effort than being dismissive?

lolwut? I know perfectly well what you're talking about. I'm saying you're being inconsistent, and your game is lacking. One sentence dismissing my defense is weak, and I'm hoping you'll recognize that. You didn't add why the defense was "unconvincing" nor did you bring any other points, and yet you're accusing me of being dismissive. The whole crux of your case rested on /'s points, which I already dealt with. You've yet to add to that or prove otherwise.

Meaning you haven't "moved on." You're taking the lazy route, hoping for a claim.

-Tails

[jonty125]

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice.

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

I pretty much agree with what's been said about Tails, though I'd point out that it was more that 2112 was saying things that coming from a newb would just be illogical. It makes no sense not to vote for him if you don't think he's got experience.

That said, it's better if that voting doesn't get out of hand, and so I'll hold off on voting tails for now pending his response.

I addressed this in my last post, but to reiterate, it was an amateur stunt, and I treated it as such... Even if 2112 is the most bad ass player on some other site, he is still clearly a newbie here. I merely try to be the sole voice of reason here, which, if anybody paid attention, was in my first post about 2112. I wasn't willing to lynch him because of the no lynch. Now we have a claimed doc outed.

As for /'s implication about me defending a townie (assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it... Which is also why nobody should be buying into it just yet. It's like the religion argument... can't disprove a deity, can you? Doesn't mean he/it/the link exists.

The rest of you on the wagon are just BWing, so I see no need to even respond to your posts.

-Tails

I'm going to FOS Tails until I see a vote count 'cos he has made no effort to defend himself.

[DoomYoshi]

Trip hippo Yes I know there is a free attack after a trip, but I don't have that feat .

Anyways, hippo, you didn't tell tails (or anyone else for that matter) that the case against him was obfuscating etc. until after you claimed he was not responding to those points. Hippo, while we can make a lea of logic with you if you give us all the steps, it is unfair to assume that we can read your mind. If one post about a godfather has charges of defensiveness, reactionariness and obfuscation then I fail to see them. I don't think this is a lie per se, just a misunderstanding and that is why I am not attacking you. But in the future, make sure you state specifically what you mean, especially when presenting a case against someone.

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

protect the innocculation (no vomits)

Fixed.

[thehippo8]

Thanks Doom. I am on holiday until mid January and have sporadic email coverage - hence the shorter messages than my usual verbosity. Not making excuses and in future I can always prepare a posting offline first. For now, I think my point has been made clear and further explained by you. Not sure what else Tail could say other than what he has, it will be up to the collective to consider whether there is an issue here or not.

Click image to enlarge.

[/]

Mr. Squirrel, your furry Excellency of all times and destinies, the fight has picked up activity considerably and is looking to be quite a way to kick off everything, could we possibly have a bit more daylight to get things settled, please?

ack.. wheedling polite Lawful Evilness overriding pure selfish Neutral Evilness... Must kill hero in needlessly violent manner...

[DoomYoshi]

Mr. Squirrel, your furry Excellency of all times and destinies, the fight has picked up activity considerably and is looking to be quite a way to kick off everything, could we possibly have a bit more daylight to get things settled, please?

ack.. wheedling polite Lawful Evilness overriding pure selfish Neutral Evilness... Must kill hero in needlessly violent manner...

Only a hero of light would want more daylight lol. KILL TEH SCUMMEH!!

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Just to forewarn you, but almost immediately after jonty's post I went into a rage. Like, I spent about an hour just writing this extremely demeaning post that was really laying on with expletives and harsh criticism. By then I had calmed down, and have since edited out the really arrogant stuff. I wish to cultivate a better experience for mafia players, so I eased up. I have too much respect for Squirrel's modding to allow myself to let this devolve into a yelling match.

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice.

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

I pretty much agree with what's been said about Tails, though I'd point out that it was more that 2112 was saying things that coming from a newb would just be illogical. It makes no sense not to vote for him if you don't think he's got experience.

That said, it's better if that voting doesn't get out of hand, and so I'll hold off on voting tails for now pending his response.

I addressed this in my last post, but to reiterate, it was an amateur stunt, and I treated it as such... Even if 2112 is the most bad ass player on some other site, he is still clearly a newbie here. I merely try to be the sole voice of reason here, which, if anybody paid attention, was in my first post about 2112. I wasn't willing to lynch him because of the no lynch. Now we have a claimed doc outed.

As for /'s implication about me defending a townie (assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it... Which is also why nobody should be buying into it just yet. It's like the religion argument... can't disprove a deity, can you? Doesn't mean he/it/the link exists.

The rest of you on the wagon are just BWing, so I see no need to even respond to your posts.

-Tails

I'm going to FOS Tails until I see a vote count 'cos he has made no effort to defend himself.

Wow... just wow. <--first time I've ever used this smily btw.

You just quoted one of my defense posts. oh and pretty much just this entire post of mine: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3503333#p3503333

Oh yeah? If there is no Murder God, then how do you explain this Dark Dagger of +3 Backstabbery I got when I killed that unicorn?

Precisely. That's likely the best argument you'll get for pro-Tails-is-defending-2112. It's nonsensical.

So if you are advocating playing the game (which I agree with of course) what exactly have you been waiting for all these past days?
Why have you been avoiding the thread until just now? (coincidently when you are being pressured)
Have you been paying attention enough to have found a valid day one target?

Ouch. tbh, I kinda lost interest and didn't feel the need to add anything when 2112 was under fire. It's not like I would've posted anything really worthwhile. If I had posted, it would've just been in league with Saf et al, meaning a criticism of 2112's gameplay.

...if y'all are going to make a case against me, put some effort into it. Don't post inane one-liners that obviously took no thought.

You concluded that I suggested you were skimming, lurking or defending. No, I actually implied you sounded defensive, reactionary and obfuscatory. It's an interesting tactic to set up things you can defend againstand ignore the actual criticisms.

o rly? Your post history speaks otherwise:

Agreed, I support /'s insight ... attack tail

You specifically said you supported /'s case, which rested on the skimming, lurking, and defending:

In summary, lurking, skimming, buddying, scumarining, respond and prove you are lurking, or don't and prove you don't care.

... so now you're skimming as well as BWing. Nice. So in your eye I can't defend against the actual charges leveled at me (which you supported), but must defend against charges that don't exist. C'mon guy.

Nice that you would call me inane, but I guess that goes with the territory. "Look at everyone else but me" kind-a-stuff. My comment was a [i]feeling[/] I had, but you are doing well to confirm my feeling and providing your own confirmations to my comments. Nice one!

I call 'em like I see 'em.

-Tails

Pull your heads out of your collective asses. I don't know what more I can say. / used arguments that can't be proven (again I'll link to the religion debate, maybe somebody will get it); I hereby assert that Safariguy is a lyncher trying to lynch Victor Sullivan. Can't fucking disprove it, can you? Or my original point; MoB is backing thehippo, tag-teaming. Can't disprove that either. My original point was to take that point with a grain of salt; it's a fine argument when coupled with other evidence, but D1 it's not reliable, and can be used to sow confusion.

So what have you guys got? Your specific accusation was that I was skimming because I believed 2112 to be a newb. He is to cc mafia. k done with that one.

Next you've got lurking. That's a terribly damning argument. It's so solid I don't even know what to do. Goddamn, every fucking person who hasn't posted in the last page should be hanged posthaste. So just off the top of my head, edoc hasn't posted since page 9. SCUM! Off with his head! Meanwhile, continue your awesome flavor spec arguments and playing at the mod. k done with that one.

Then you have defending another player, specifically me (as scum) defending someone I know to be town to earn points. As I've said time and time again, it's a bullshit argument at this juncture. k done with that one.

Nothing else? C'mon guys, surely you can do better. And hey, at first his (/) argument was great; he utilized what he saw as tells and tried to build a case on me. That is great, and I wish everyone did this more often. Turns out the tells weren't accurate. Big deal. What pisses me off is the BW's belief that somehow repeating that I haven't made a defense makes it so... Which is precisely the problem with mafia. Apparently, if we just sit on the wagon and ignore what the suspect says, we'll get a claim. hooray we didn't have to do anything! We got by with posting one sentence responses that are based on feelings! "I don't feel your response was good enough--never mind the actual mechanics or facts, just the way I feel." Why is my defense not good enough? Please someone (looking at thehippo, MoB, or jonty) actually give me valid reasons that my defense was weaker than /'s original case, not based solely on a feeling.

And hey, just remember, thehippo has accused me of being dismissive; apparently posting one-liners with no logical response, but relying instead on appeal to emotion, thereby ignoring the defense completely, isn't dismissive at all.

The only person who deserves to be on my vc is /. And pcm if he decides to vote. The rest of you haven't done shit.

-Tails

[Victor Sullivan]

Attack jonty

Ah. I see there is a BW on me. Nice.

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

Fircoal is gone; someone must protect the innocents.

I pretty much agree with what's been said about Tails, though I'd point out that it was more that 2112 was saying things that coming from a newb would just be illogical. It makes no sense not to vote for him if you don't think he's got experience.

That said, it's better if that voting doesn't get out of hand, and so I'll hold off on voting tails for now pending his response.

I addressed this in my last post, but to reiterate, it was an amateur stunt, and I treated it as such... Even if 2112 is the most bad ass player on some other site, he is still clearly a newbie here. I merely try to be the sole voice of reason here, which, if anybody paid attention, was in my first post about 2112. I wasn't willing to lynch him because of the no lynch. Now we have a claimed doc outed.

As for /'s implication about me defending a townie (assuming I'm scum of course), I have no retort. That is a great argument precisely because I can't disprove it... Which is also why nobody should be buying into it just yet. It's like the religion argument... can't disprove a deity, can you? Doesn't mean he/it/the link exists.

The rest of you on the wagon are just BWing, so I see no need to even respond to your posts.

-Tails

I'm going to FOS Tails until I see a vote count 'cos he has made no effort to defend himself.

I feel like Tails has been rather sensible and coherent with his arguments, particularly the post of his above. You, however, seem to have no intention of doing the same. I see your posting patterns as rather scummy in my eyes. The way I see it, you're being obtuse while Tails is being quite acute. But who is right? Hm...

-Sully

[DoomYoshi]

Yea, I'm not sure if jonty was trolling, skimming or actually thought that. Either way, it is the best case we have right now.

attack jonty

[Victor Sullivan]

EBWOP: By "above", I mean, the last post on the last page, lol.

-Sully

[zimmah]

even tho jonties post is quite weird, i'd say tails is overreacting. would the loss of 1 town really hurt this much in a game this big? if he was town, would he really be so overly defensive and aggresive and emotional about people pressuring him?

i mean i'd be quite sad if i got killed/lynched early in this game because i like this game a lot and it'd be a pity if i can't play it till the end or at least till midgame or so, but even then, i wouldn't be all aggresive about it, i'll just join another game and keep track of what's going on her (and the occasional urge to want to be involved in the conversation but not being able to do so because you're dead).

[Victor Sullivan]

Nonetheless, we must strive to lynch as few townies as humanly possible to conserve our power, as I think we have some rather formidable opponents.

-Sully