Marxists Thread

[beezer]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

[Neutrino]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

Didnt you read my last post at all?

Whats the point of replying to a thread if you havent read the whole thing?

Anyway; for those lazy readers.

well as for which one works better, obviously capitalism is because it has survived a much longer time. The smarter one, however, is communism. With it, no one is more important than another. There probably will be less racial tension, and poorer countries could develop. BUT, it will never work so....

Survived longer???
Dont you know anything about early human history?
Before humanity started aggregating into large towns and cities, most people lived in small villages, whos system of government can best be described as a mix of tribalism and communism.

Capitalism - A few hundred years.

Communism and proto-Communism - A few hundred thousand years.

Im sorry, but they have you beat.

[beezer]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

Didnt you read my last post at all?

Whats the point of replying to a thread if you havent read the whole thing?

Anyway; for those lazy readers.

well as for which one works better, obviously capitalism is because it has survived a much longer time. The smarter one, however, is communism. With it, no one is more important than another. There probably will be less racial tension, and poorer countries could develop. BUT, it will never work so....

Survived longer???
Dont you know anything about early human history?
Before humanity started aggregating into large towns and cities, most people lived in small villages, whos system of government can best be described as a mix of tribalism and communism.

Capitalism - A few hundred years.

Communism and proto-Communism - A few hundred thousand years.

Im sorry, but they have you beat.

I did read it.

I was looking for a specific name of an ancient culture. Something from recorded history. Do you have a specific example of a known ancient culture where it has worked. I was trying to get you to at least give us all a name. If you can't provide one, then don't get ticked off at me. You're the one that made the assertion.

[Neutrino]

I did read it.

I was looking for a specific name of an ancient culture. Something from recorded history. Do you have a specific example of a known ancient culture where it has worked. I was trying to get you to at least give us all a name. If you can't provide one, then don't get ticked off at me. You're the one that made the assertion.

O.K.: Specific Ancient Culture: Humanity in general.

Really any culture more than a few thousand years ago would have been ruled by a Tribalism-Socialist type government (Generally a group of local wise men).

It would have made no sense to be ruthlessly explioting your neighbour if he and a few others were all that stood between you and oblivion.

Of course, you'd get the occasional Dictatorship, but those tend to be unstable (suprisingly enough, most people do not enjoy being oppressed) and would have quickly collapsed.

[DangerBoy]

I did read it.

I was looking for a specific name of an ancient culture. Something from recorded history. Do you have a specific example of a known ancient culture where it has worked. I was trying to get you to at least give us all a name. If you can't provide one, then don't get ticked off at me. You're the one that made the assertion.

O.K.: Specific Ancient Culture: Humanity in general.

In other words, he can't. He just giving you what he wants to be a fact.

[Neutrino]

I did read it.

I was looking for a specific name of an ancient culture. Something from recorded history. Do you have a specific example of a known ancient culture where it has worked. I was trying to get you to at least give us all a name. If you can't provide one, then don't get ticked off at me. You're the one that made the assertion.

O.K.: Specific Ancient Culture: Humanity in general.

In other words, he can't. He just giving you what he wants to be a fact.

No, I can, I just dont want to spend the rest of my holidays listing ancient cultures, just to prove a point.

[beezer]

In other words, he can't. He just giving you what he wants to be a fact.

No, I can, I just dont want to spend the rest of my holidays listing ancient cultures, just to prove a point.[/quote]

Whatever you need to tell yourself

[Iliad]

Second that. Ancient cultures weren't communistic. They were pretty materialistic: they had slaves! And so on. Before you even mention a culture I won't think about believing you because you're not providing facts.

[chewyman]

I read that post as well. Seeing as I completely disagreed with it I just ignored it but now I guess I have to explain why. I'm going to first ask the same question as beezer: please name a civilisation where communism has existed successfully, even flourished. If you can, although I doubt it, then I have to ask why that civilisation no longer exists?

If you are referring to tribal systems then keep in mind that they are not communist. Tribal elders are considered greater in these societies. That people live in tribes does not necessarily mean that all possessions are shared.

So, with that clarified, we have to look even further back to find your 'ideal society'. Unfortunately, tribalism was the first form of civilisation. Communism cannot exist without civilisation and this brings me back to my original question. Where and when exactly has this communist society existed?

[DangerBoy]

Second that. Ancient cultures weren't communistic. They were pretty materialistic: they had slaves! And so on. Before you even mention a culture I won't think about believing you because you're not providing facts.

I can give you an example of where capitalism works: The United States. Even with restrictions on it since we have a mixed economy, it still works!

I think that communists just exploit the natural tendency of people to feel jealousy towards those that have more than them, while setting themselves up to be against materialism.

[spurgistan]

Hunter-gatherer society (which, no matter what your freaking culture is, you WERE before the advent of farming in 8000 BC, and almost definitely for very, very long after that, too) was entirely non-materialistic. Each got what he needed, and gave according to his ability. Sound familiar?

[Neutrino]

In other words, he can't. He just giving you what he wants to be a fact.

No, I can, I just dont want to spend the rest of my holidays listing ancient cultures, just to prove a point.

Whatever you need to tell yourself[/quote]

That I have better things to do than spend an hour looking in a textbook for the exact spelling of an obscure tribe that dwelled in the south of Spain several millennia ago?

I think so.

Instead of saying that my lack of willingness to waste my hollidays is proof that I am wrong, why dont you try to prove me wrong with some solid scientific facts?

[payaso]

Marxism is the basis for communism. Mostly from the book by Karl Marx titled, The Communist Manifesto".

By the way, the reference to the Soviet Union starving its own people and talking about the US, is quite ignorant. It shows that you obviously don't see the difference between Marxism and communism. Communism is merely an ideal.

No, we understand it alright. That's why we are so opposed to it. I don't feel like being killed by the government just because I disagree with its policies.

Gulags suck!

[payaso]

Instead of saying that my lack of willingness to waste my hollidays is proof that I am wrong, why dont you try to prove me wrong with some solid scientific facts?

Because you're the one that made the original point.

[Neutrino]

Second that. Ancient cultures weren't communistic. They were pretty materialistic: they had slaves! And so on. Before you even mention a culture I won't think about believing you because you're not providing facts.

No, you are thinking a few thousand years ago ancient. Im speaking of a few hundred thousand years ago ancient.

I can give you an example of where capitalism works: The United States. Even with restrictions on it since we have a mixed economy, it still works!

I think that communists just exploit the natural tendency of people to feel jealousy towards those that have more than them, while setting themselves up to be against materialism.

No, you can give me an example of where Capitalism is working.

It may be working fine for now (at the expense of most of the rest of the world I might add), but the world sure as hell cant support that kind of environmental impact for too much longer.

[unriggable]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

Kibutz

[unriggable]

BTW capitalism is survival of the fittest, which has always been around.

[CrazyAnglican]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

Sorry Beezer,
I'm not a communist nor do I think it's the best system, but reread the book of Acts from an economist's point of view. New converts gave their money to the Christian community. The community then shared among themselves to meet everyone's needs. What is a monastery or convent if not a religious commune?
I agree with you completely that it doesn't seem to stack up against capitalism, but for different reasons. It is completely dependent of the one party being benevolent. If there is no opposition then you have the problem of one man gaining a monopoly on power and establishing a dictatorship. There are plenty of current examples of that (Cuba, N. Korea, Stalinist Russia).

[jnd94]

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Ok I'll bite...where has it worked?

Sorry Beezer,
I'm not a communist nor do I think it's the best system, but reread the book of Acts from an economist's point of view. New converts gave their money to the Christian community. The community then shared among themselves to meet everyone's needs. What is a monastery or convent if not a religious commune?

is christianity the only thing you think of? are you a priest or monk or something?

[Neutrino]

BTW capitalism is survival of the fittest, which has always been around.

Ok, explain to me the point of having a Capitalist society if there is only you and the other 30 off members of your tribe in the area, wolf packs hanging around, in the dead of winter.

Turning someone out of their home because they missed their hut payments might not be the brightest idea in the world.

[CrazyAnglican]

is christianity the only thing you think of? are you a priest or monk or something?

No, and no.

[unriggable]

BTW capitalism is survival of the fittest, which has always been around.

Ok, explain to me the point of having a Capitalist society if there is only you and the other 30 off members of your tribe in the area, wolf packs hanging around, in the dead of winter.

Turning someone out of their home because they missed their hut payments might not be the brightest idea in the world.

Capitalism = you earned what you get. How can that be any more capitalist?

[beezer]

I can give you an example of where capitalism works: The United States. Even with restrictions on it since we have a mixed economy, it still works!

I think that communists just exploit the natural tendency of people to feel jealousy towards those that have more than them, while setting themselves up to be against materialism.

No, you can give me an example of where Capitalism is working.

It may be working fine for now (at the expense of most of the rest of the world I might add), but the world sure as hell cant support that kind of environmental impact for too much longer.

OK, it's impossible to have a conversation with you on this. When we asked for a specific example, you're answer was basically that your "lack of unwillingness" to provide one is a good enough answer. When DangerBoy offered the US as an example as where capitalism works, you just dismissed is by saying it only works "fine for now" but it will not because of environmental reasons.

[Neutrino]

Capitalism = you earned what you get. How can that be any more capitalist?

What exactly is your point?

Capitalism = Capitalism

What? When did this happen? Why did no-one inform me?

Just being sarcastic. Word it better next time.

[everywhere116]

I am glad to see my bretheren are doing just fine.

I am apalled that you refuse to name a civilisation that flourished under communism yet you dismiss the US as a civilization under capitalism. Do you listen to yourself?