The Fish Club - Christians come and discuss our faith.

[Abishai]

A little birdie dropped the picture in my inbox.

[luns101]

Hi all,

I just wanted to share with you that one of our brothers, LewisJB3, will be traveling to Peru soon. We will need to hold him and his family up in prayer for a safe journey.

If we're really nice to him and let him win a few games perhaps he will return and post some pics of Machu Picchu for us. (hint, hint)

Has anyone else here gone on a missions trip outside of the U.S.? Tell us about it.

[Abishai]

Nothing out of the U.S only stuff in my home state of Missouri. I was a summer missionary for two ummers. I loved it.
I will keep lewis in my prayers. When does he leave?
Also I have been meaning to post about your question about witnessing. I am continually witnessing about Christ and telling other about his love for them I have never had anyone profess to receive Christ as a result of witnessing. Even thought I am fully equipped with a bum load of training I have only conusiled people who have already come forward. Thankfull God does not place a quota on the number of souls that He ignites faith in their hearts when I preach the word. Where God seems to use me most is in explaining the word of God and what it means.
Anyhow the most intereting one I can remember was my first summer as a summer misionary at a youth camp and this kid was causing so much trouble that we decided that if he did not straighten up we were going to call his Mom and have her come the next day to get him. (We were going to kick him out of camp in other words.) that night he came forward and another guy and I counsiled him to make sure he knew what being a christian was all about. The last two days saw a dramitic change. He had no more problems at camp and he was hugging on people instead of terrorizing the instructors and fellow children. It was quite the change.

[LewisJB3]

Thanks Luns, yeah I'm leaving for Peru on March 21st. I might be able to get some pictures to you of some of the sights there. We're going down there to see a missionary (and what God is doing there) and do some touristy stuff while there. So yes please pray for my families safty, thanks.


P.S. Yes I know I have terrible spelling, luns helps me with it all the time.
---Lewis

[luns101]

Hi brother and sisters in Christ,

Just wanted to raise up another opportunity to hold someone up in prayer. You've probably played with or against "clapper011" at some time here (If not then you need to...she's a great person).

Clapper told me that her son will be undergoing surgery soon. He has a heart condition. So, we need to hold up clapper's son in prayer to give the doctor's wisdom when performing the surgery and that if God is willing, He will return this boy's health.

If clapper wants to explain further she may, but she has given me permission to share this with you guys. Also, an encourgaing PM to her would also be a good way to show her your support.

[CrazyAnglican]

Thanks for the information about Clapper, Luns. She'll be on the prayer list.

[CrazyAnglican]

Not one of you christians can live up to that idealistic pish. You know why? Because you're human beings...(probably, hopefully)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" - Romans 3:23

"But God demonstrates His love to us in this, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" - Romans 5:8

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" - Romans 10:13

Yes, knowing that we will never (in this life) meet those standards doesn't excuse us from trying. Salvation is a gift from a loving God. We can never earn it. It is our weakness in this respect that reminds us that we are dependent on a loving God and Saviour.

This works for other human endeavors too. I began a martial arts career continually falling short of the standards set for me. I nevertheless kept trying to meet them. The net result so far is that I have a fifth degree black belt, and I'm better at Taekwondo that I ever dreamed I'd be. I'm not perfect; I'm still striving to meet those expectations. I continually fell short and continually faced that fact and moved on, which made the improvement possible.

[Abishai]

Ok so I totally screwed up and made a new tread instead of relying here. Oops. Oh well.
Heard a great definition for sanctification the other day. Sanctification is the process of relying and being modivated less and less by the old adam and learning to rely and be motivated more and more by the new adam. It total goes with Paul's idea of putting of the old man, the sinner in us and putting on the new man Christ in us.

[CrazyAnglican]

That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of that as sanctification. But yes dying to myself and living for Christ is one of the hardest ideas for me to grasp in the faith. There is always the temptation to think that I'm really okay and don't need to be reborn. Fortunately I screw up enough on a daily basis to realize how wrong I am in thinking that way.

[luns101]

In college we had a professor who used a line graph to illustrate sanctification. Talk about making the complex simple.

My understanding of sanctification is being "set apart" by God to complete the specific mission He has given for an individual to accomplish. It is not the same as being saved from your sins (justification).

On the line graph, the teacher showed us that when a person accepts Christ as personal Savior, that person is positionally "justified" as perfect in God's eyes. He drew a straight line from left to right at the highest point of the graph, illustrating perfection throughout one's life.

Starting at the same point at the top left, he drew another line that was sometimes high and other times low. This line represents our life as we struggle to fulfill God's mission. Somedays, we are in complete communion with God. At other times, we follow our own desires and disregard God's will. That line represented "sanctification" or the "setting apart" by God.

Don't know if that helps. It's easier to show someone on a board than to describe it in words.

[MeDeFe]

He should have studied poetry instead of mathematics, then he might have been able to get it across.


Explaining spiritual matters by graphs, omfg...

[Abishai]

I see you point with the graph. What is our mission that God is fullfilling in our lives. I believe that Scripture says that is faith.As it says "the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:17 which is an OT quote from Habakkuk 2:4. Faith shows it self in odedience. as james says "Show meyour faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do....you see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." James 2:18,22. Noah is another good example Hebrews (11:7) says By faith Noah when warrned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith." Gen 6:9 says he was blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. He had faith that influenced his actions. Crazy Anglican hit it on the head. dying to the flesh. Paul tells us about that condition of the christian. He is Sanit and Sinner. totally declared righteous (not actually righteous, but declared that because of Jesus.), but also sinner (in our flesh slaves to the law that works in our members.) Paul also talks about it as putting off the old man and putting on the new man. (Ephesians 4:22-24.) It is being set apart, by faith for the destiny designed for us. That is in Philipians 3:20,21 "But our citizen ship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there who by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
I always thought of sanctification as learning to live in the reality of what we already are in Christ and one day He will make what we cannot make a reality by his power which brings all thing under his control.

[CrazyAnglican]

In college we had a professor who used a line graph to illustrate sanctification. Talk about making the complex simple.

My understanding of sanctification is being "set apart" by God to complete the specific mission He has given for an individual to accomplish. It is not the same as being saved from your sins (justification).

On the line graph, the teacher showed us that when a person accepts Christ as personal Savior, that person is positionally "justified" as perfect in God's eyes. He drew a straight line from left to right at the highest point of the graph, illustrating perfection throughout one's life.

Starting at the same point at the top left, he drew another line that was sometimes high and other times low. This line represents our life as we struggle to fulfill God's mission. Somedays, we are in complete communion with God. At other times, we follow our own desires and disregard God's will. That line represented "sanctification" or the "setting apart" by God.

I like that. Kind of like the famous poem "Footsteps", when the man looked back on his life and only saw one set of prints at his lowest times, God replies "it was those times that I carried you". I think that seeing it in graph form would be interesting.

Similarly, In The Screwtape Letters Wormwood, a demon, complains that his patient is surrounded by a choking cloud at times after accepting Christ. Screwtape, Wormwood's mentor, explains that it's the presence of the Holy Spirit, and at those times he will be able to do nothing. I particularly like your college professor's graphic as it seems to address the idea that "once you're saved everything will be peachy" fallacy.

[Abishai]

saint and sinner* in Romans 7:14-25.

[Abishai]

First, I haven't heard of this archaeological discovery about the bone calcium and nails, and I am usually on top of this stuff (it's my field).

Second, from a biological standpoint, the "40 lashes kills a man" is pure lunacy. Different constitutions allow for different pain thresholds. Moreover, if he were nailed through the wrist (and to a lesser point, the feet), he would have severe hemorrhaging (which would probably kill him from a massive loss of blood. I mean, you add the crown of thorns, the lashings, and the hammering in the nails? That's too much blood to lose), and his wrists would most likely have fractured (leading his arms to dangle), or torn his arms from his sockets. Tests from the time period and area show that calcium deficiency was rampant, and only increases the likely-hood of his bones splitting.
_________________
If you can see this you are imagining things. This message is empty. Everyone loves Jesse. (Empty)

WOW according to your post noone could have been crucified in the Roman empire, because it was not physically possible. Ummm better check your history. they did it all the time and had it down to a science. Where to nail without hitting the proper veins and arteries to cause someone to die fast. I find when a person contradicts what any expert on Roman punishment would tel you he should probally double check his sources.

[Abishai]

Sorry I am in error wrong post. too many windows open. Got the wrong one.

[MeDeFe]

There's also a very handy "delete button on ones own posts.

[CrazyAnglican]

Happy Easter everyone.

[luns101]

Happy Easter everyone.

You too, my brother!

[CrazyAnglican]

Hi everyone. We all know I started this thread to avoid arguments, but I'd like the your perspectives on the whole 1-on-1 debate idea, as believers.

[beezer]

Hi everyone. We all know I started this thread to avoid arguments, but I'd like the your perspectives on the whole 1-on-1 debate idea, as believers.

You did really well. Juggernaut also made some good points. The rules you set up really made me take more time to read both of your positions, which is what I thought you were hoping for.

As a churchgoer and Christian for most of my life, this website has really opened my eyes. I really had no idea how much atheists hated us. Most people that I deal with in life are not even close to being as hostile as I've seen them here. Most of my neighbors are not Christians but they are still polite in their dismissal of the Bible. It's not even close here on this site, why do you think that is Anglican?

I've read stories about atheists that have actually gone insane during the last part of their lives, but now I think I'm seeing it firsthand. It's scary and sad in a way. I don't think there's any way to convince them that we really care about them, as they just seem to get angrier. I admit that I sort of lost my temper with some of them earlier (talking about the judgement seat of Christ).

Should we even attempt to debate them...I just think it enrages them more.

[DangerBoy]

As a churchgoer and Christian for most of my life, this website has really opened my eyes. I really had no idea how much atheists hated us. Most people that I deal with in life are not even close to being as hostile as I've seen them here. Most of my neighbors are not Christians but they are still polite in their dismissal of the Bible. It's not even close here on this site, why do you think that is Anglican?

Well nobody knows exactly but I have a theory.

Atheists are a minority and probably feel very alienated. When they come here they feel like they are in the majority and have finally found others to have fun with while playing RISK. They are experiencing the same good feelings and satisfaction here that we get from going to church and reading the Bible. Since they don't go to church unless it is someone's wedding or funeral, this is probably the closest thing to fellowship they experience.

[MeDeFe]

Condescension, aaah, I like that, give it to me you sexy believers!


I've been trying. I really have been trying to be a decent person and not spoiling this thread for you. I haven't gotten into any discussions in this thread that was started by a devout christian for a devout christians. I think the last thing about christianity I commented on here was about the use of "Ichtys" (greek for fish) as a code among early christians.


And what happens? Someone starts sprouting nonsense about non-believers not knowing the experience of fellowship. What do you know? Not a bit.

Why are you supposing that there isn't fellowship in, say, a chess club? Or a soccer team. Or a band. Or any other thing any of the non-believers here might be a member of. What does fellowship have to do with religion at all? Want me to tell you? Nothing At All.
Fellowship and comradery have been used as reasons for joining quite a lot of organizations, be it the boy scouts or the nazi youth, your countries army or the salvation army. And no I'm not drawing any comparisons, it's more of a creating a contrast between two more or less diametrally opposed groups which use the same means of advertisement.

If I want fellowship I hang out with my friends in RL, here I'm enjoying playing risk and discussing stuff with other people.


And try this for an easy theory, people are more considerate in RL and especially to their friends because they're facing the person they're talking to directly instead of reading what he wrote several thousand miles away.


As for being irritated, no wonder one gets irritated when you feel you get the same old propaganda all the time. "God loves you, become a christian", "become a christian or burn in hell", "god wants all this stuff [insert list] but I can't tell you why [insert paradox], god is beyond human understanding". So? But you unimportant worm of a human still knows what he wants? Sure thing.




ok, I've calmed down a little, it's just that I think the idea of non-believers being sad lonely humans who don't even know it is (edit: to me) absolutely preposterous.




Look it's fine if you care about my well-being, spiritual or otherwise, It's just that... I'll try to give you an example of why it can be so irritating, although it won't be easy and I will probably fail miserably. Anyway:

"As a human being basing my morals on rationality as well as what I've been told by the society I grew up in I feel that any human should make the best he can out of his life. Why will you not do it? You are wasting your life away believing in something the existence of which is highly unlikely and which, if it exists, must surely surpass all human understanding. There is no need to gather and sing and because you are afraid that you will go to some unpleasant place after you die if you don't. Fear is not a good basis for any organization, and neither is enforced love and bribery. Gathering and singing is fine if you like to do it, but one shouldn't do it because there would be consequences otherwise, whether because the community in which you live would think you odd or whether you believe you would have an unpleasant afterlife. So many flaws in that which you base your religion on have been shown already, please, throw off your chains and free yourself from the burden you have placed yourself under."

And so on. It's somewhat exaggerated of course, although any exaggeration longer than 3 or 4 words doesn't come easily to me, or so I hope.

Atheists and believers have fundamentally different world views. "How can this person not see that there is no god, is he willfully delusional?", "How can this person not see that there must be a god, is he willfully delusional?". And the agnostics are caught in the middle of it, balancing precariously between metaphysical speculation and throwing it all away never to spend another moment thinking about the matter. At least that's how I feel at times.

Even if a believer and an atheist agree on everything else, science, morals and whatnot, they're basing their world-views on completely different fundaments. I find that it's possible to disuss almost anything, but sometimes there's something that strikes you as so unarguably obvious that you cannot understand why someone else doesn't see things the same way. And that's when it gets difficult. That's the point with "I'll pray for you", "I hope you'll find god", "god loves you" and so on. And depending on ones disposition something inside you wants to scream "there is no god", or "you have no frikking idea what you're talking about" or any other such thing, depending on how it struck you as wrong.

Like everyone else I can only speak for myself, but I hope I was able to get the point across. Noone hates you. It's just that what you say to some people seems so obviously wrong that they cannot understand why you even say it.


I also get irritated at it, but that's at least partly because regularly someone hands me a pamphlet and tells me to repent. Once it's happened often enough you automatically want to strike out at anything that resembles it .


gtg, I have to walk the dog.

[beezer]

Condescension, aaah, I like that, give it to me you sexy believers!

Look it's fine if you care about my well-being, spiritual or otherwise, It's just that... I'll try to give you an example of why it can be so irritating, although it won't be easy and I will probably fail miserably. Anyway:

Like everyone else I can only speak for myself, but I hope I was able to get the point across. Noone hates you. It's just that what you say to some people seems so obviously wrong that they cannot understand why you even say it.

gtg, I have to walk the dog.

Whoa man, I'm glad you at least recognize that we are concerned about you. The Apostle Paul told us to "become all things to all men" so that we can share the gospel with them. So naturally, we want to try and get inside the heads of people that are opposed to us to see what the reasoning is. You did a pretty good job of explaining what you think.

I think that other kid was just explaining his own theory.

[got tonkaed]

I much like medefe, didnt really want to get inovlved with this thread, because as he says, this is a thread for discussion within faith and was and probably is not my place. However, some of the more recent posts have made me wish to put something in as well.

The majority of christians on this board are good minded people, people i disagree with frequently but have had the fortune to be able to debate with on a wide range of topics fairly civily. This doesnt mean anyone is changing their minds, but its important to be able to try and talk about other points and view at least in order to become more familiar. One of the nicest gestures that ive seen while on this forum toward me was from a christian and i really appreciated it.

Having added all of that, some of the more recent stuff has bothered me. now of course we all have to develop a thicker skin, but frankly i question to some extent to what degree you guys are really thinking some of these ideas through. Beezer, your posts though i am sure that are of good intentions come off as incredibly condecending. Now i understand to some degree that you will never be able to think of me as your equal because i turned away from the faith you practice, but i am not mentally ill. To equate those who do not think like you, especially as you seem to be touting from the posts that ive read of yours a more conservative faith, is somewhat dishonest. Not that your conservative faith is any sign of illness, let me clairfy that, but simply that your faith is probably slightly farther to the right than many of your other brothers and sisters. Are they too mentally ill because they dont believe some of they things you may? I would assume you dont think so, so why are people like me when they get older?

Also, as was already referenced, this board isnt exactly the only place "we atheists" get to talk to other people. Yes it is a minority stance to believe that there isnt a god of some fashioin. But it doesnt necesarily equate to any of us sitting around all the time wondering why the world couldnt be more fair. We are no different than anyone else on this board, and to assume we are shows a fairly ethnocentric line of thinking, and a bit surprising because its so clearly ethnocentric.

Lastly beezer, your posts dont seem to show much concern with me, rather the difference between the two of us. Your concern with me goes as far as the nature of my salvation, which on some level i can appreciate. If you believe that is the highest level of human existence, the assurance that we are saved by God, then i understand the desire to get as many people to that point as possible. However as i dont follow the same set of beliefs as you there, your concern with that does not show a greater overall concern with me. Your interest in me is to find things that are different than you, and then take a step back and say, look at how different they are from me. Im trying not to criticize you for this position, but i think if you read what you are posting you will see where i am coming from. If you want to become all things to all men one of the first things that you have to do is be willing to accept all men as men, and that includes ones who disagree with your positions, which is why this is such a hard stance to take.

Again i apologize to anyone if i have offended as this was not my intent. But some of the more recent ethnocentrism has apparently been too much for my increasingly weak skin (blame the marxism thread lol). Everyone here wishes to talk with everyone, though at times there are probably some instances when it doesnt work out as well as it should. Yes to varying degrees we are different in how open or hostile we are, but to reciprocate with a more thinly veiled condescenion is no better of a repost.