US Military Action in Libya?

[saxitoxin]

CNN now reporting UK and French troops on ground in libya ... What the free media has already been reporting for a week but were dismissed as anti western.

Nato couldn't beat the resistance with bombs and propaganda of democracy, now it's the first stages of a land invasion to steal the oil.

[General_Tao]

Link?!?

You've got no credibility here based on this very thread, claiming that the German Wehrmacht has landed en masse when it turned out it was a 9-person protection unit.,, Your modus operandi is pure hyperbole and consistently trying to force-fit reality according to your hardened political convictions. If some of the stuff you claim were in fact true, I might actually change my mind on the situation.

[saxitoxin]

Link?!?

You've got no credibility here based on this very thread, claiming that the German Wehrmacht has landed en masse when it turned out it was a 9-person protection unit.,, Your modus operandi is pure hyperbole and consistently trying to force-fit reality according to your hardened political convictions. If some of the stuff you claim were in fact true, I might actually change my mind on the situation.

Pull unlce sam's dick out of your ass for 3 seconds and go to CNN on your own. It's not worth my time to try to convince a hardened Yankee wannabe like yourself. I already noted I'm oot atm and unable to copy and paste links, lumpen scum.

I never said the bundeswehwe landed, I said gsg9 did and that was accurate.

Keep filtering the massacre through the rose coloured glasses your pathetic western corporate propaganda machine have glued to your head.

threes more courage in one block of tripoli tonight than in the entire nation responsible for crapping out the Butcher Bouchard

Apologies fire ask spelling errors.

[saxitoxin]

Iran just publicly announced the Revolutionary Rocket Forces are prepping to attack the Zionist state if Europe dares any attack on Syria similar to Libya. Coupled with the Russian veto of yesterday's attempted UNSEC action against Syria, the world may be waking up to what is happening and preparing to make a stand. Europe will not risk the Zionists retaliating with nukes and destroying so much oil. This is a crafty and well calculated move by Tehran.

Meanwhile, five Serbs and four Filipinos have been kidnapped in Tripoli by remnants of the nato backed rebels to use as human shields against the Resistance.

As I said a few days ago that turned out to be true ... watch for a counter offensive. I now say, if the Resistance can hold out for at least another week, watch for Algeria to enter on side of Resistance and secure the western desert to free up Resistance forces to go to Tripoli and fight NATO.

Obama may have launched World War 3. One wouldn't know it by reading the dismissive play downs on CNN but the planet hangs tonight by a thread.

[BigBallinStalin]

Iran just publicly announced the Revolutionary Rocket Forces are prepping to attack the Zionist state if Europe dares any attack on Syria similar to Libya. Coupled with the Russian veto of yesterday's attempted UNSEC action against Syria, the world may be waking up to what is happening and preparing to make a stand. Europe will not risk the Zionists retaliating with nukes and destroying so much oil. This is a crafty and well calculated move by Tehran.

Meanwhile, five Serbs and four Filipinos have been kidnapped in Tripoli by remnants of the nato backed rebels to use as human shields against the Resistance.

As I said a few days ago that turned out to be true ... watch for a counter offensive. I now say, if the Resistance can hold out for at least another week, watch for Algeria to enter on side of Resistance and secure the western desert to free up Resistance forces to go to Tripoli and fight NATO.

Obama may have launched World War 3. One wouldn't know it by reading the dismissive play downs on CNN but the planet hangs tonight by a thread.

This thread, or another thread?

[General_Tao]

While saxi's geopolitical takes are totally delirious, you can't deny those histrionics' entertaining value. Major LOLs at Algeria going to war against NATO...

[saxitoxin]

While saxi's geopolitical takes are totally delirious, you can't deny those histrionics' entertaining value. Major LOLs at Algeria going to war against NATO...

Hey yankee rentboi, here's the link you wanted about nato ground troops in libya.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... c7a6d073c6

Everything you've questioned me on has thus far been wrong.

” they have arrested saif ... there will be no counter offensive ... there are no ground troops"

You should stop being such a puppet of the military industrial complex.

You should also broaden your frame and not suppose an algerian cross border Movement portends action against nato.

[General_Tao]

More saxi LOLs, Algeria's coast doesn't even have a border with Libya! there are hundreds of miles of barren desert between Algeria and the inhabited part of Libya. Even if the algerian regime wanted to intervene, they would have to cross hundreds of miles of desert without any air cover to get there... And to think that Algeria would have the political wherewithal to take on the Libyan revolution is beyond retarded, their government isn't exactly popular at home and is a very good candidate for the next Arab popular overthrow.

Qaddhafi's regime is finished, it will be a matter of days until his sick family is captured or exiled. Here's to a good future of freedom and economic development for the Libyan people, I'm proud that Canada has been a part of their liberation.

[General_Tao]

This is the kind of regime saxi is fond of:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blo ... _blog.html

[saxitoxin]

Trusting rebel/al qaeda press releases has scored you around 0/5 in this thread so far. Do you find this embarrassing? Are you really so infatuated with pushing yankee policy that you'll continue to dismiss predictions from sources proven to be five hundred percent more accurate than your feckless propaganda?

Your record of error to date has really put you in the role of the court jester. You can dismiss anything I say with as many emoticons as you like, but the history of this thread shows only the insane will join your military industrial propaganda.

As for your wapo link, they also reported on montreal police shooting unarmed civilians. Is the correct response to have the US air force kill five thousan quebecers and give mohawk tribesmen ak47s or are you racist and value white life as more valuable than brown? Arabs are better able to absorb collateral damage for the sake of TOTAL profits?

[BigBallinStalin]

Qaddhafi's regime is finished, it will be a matter of days until his sick family is captured or exiled. Here's to a good future of freedom and economic development for the Libyan people, I'm proud that Canada has been a part of their liberation.

Like Iraq and Afghanistan, amirite?

[saxitoxin]

The Resistance is sending volunteer teams into the Garages neighborhood to rescue blacks caught behind rebel lines. The rats are rounding up blacks for execution just like Amnesty reported they were doing in Benghazi. These rescue ops are dangerous work and demonstrate the bravey of the Libyan people. Heroic stories of neighbours helping each other in the face of unspeakable horrors from the oil company mercs.

We hear reports of the oil co rebels raping young boys. If true it would be similar to the strategy used in iraq that seymour hersch reported on to demoralize the resistance.

[General_Tao]

saxi, not that you really had it together, but you've totally lost it, old man.

Qaddhafi's regime is finished, it will be a matter of days until his sick family is captured or exiled. Here's to a good future of freedom and economic development for the Libyan people, I'm proud that Canada has been a part of their liberation.

Like Iraq and Afghanistan, amirite?

Not the same, the Iraqi people did not ask the US to invade their country.

[BigBallinStalin]

saxi, not that you really had it together, but you've totally lost it, old man.

Qaddhafi's regime is finished, it will be a matter of days until his sick family is captured or exiled. Here's to a good future of freedom and economic development for the Libyan people, I'm proud that Canada has been a part of their liberation.

Like Iraq and Afghanistan, amirite?

Not the same, the Iraqi people did not ask the US to invade their country.

Neither did the Germans nor the Japanese, but it worked out fine (for plenty of other reasons).


You're mixing up Libyan rebels with Libyan people. Remember, the rebels wanted NATO (US) to invade with elite ground forces and to intervene with NATO air forces. I'm not quite sure how the Libyan people feel about that idea, so I won't presume that I do.



The point is that there are many, many factors that need to be considered in order to determine if a country can be successfully converted into a liberal democracy (like Western Europe's and the US') via military occupation or intervention. You're assuming that the fall of dictator will bring "freedom and economic development" for the Libyan people. I doubt that would happen given the modern methods employed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and I doubt it given that the US has a long history of propping up dictators, or propping up weak democracies which collapse into something else.

[saxitoxin]

saxi, not that you really had it together, but you've totally lost it, old man.

Once again, everything ... every single thing you've said in this thread that you've gleaned from the military industrial spokespeople, has been proven wrong within days. All that is left to you is to continue to embarass yourself or resort to shouting down anyone who is anti genocide with ad homonym attacks like an intellectual dwarf.

You chose the latter.

Go post on a FOX News message board until you have the wherwithal to string two sensical thoughts together. We can get plenty of flag waving and fireworks without you.

[General_Tao]

you...continue to embarass yourself or resort to shouting down anyone who is anti genocide with ad homonym attacks like an intellectual dwarf.

It's ad hominem saxi, not "ad homonym". Hominem is latin for man, homonym refers to different words that have the same pronunciation. Surely the intellectual giant that you are would know this difference... ... A good example of ad hominem is what you did the previous page when you resorted to calling me "lumpen scum" out of frustration from being on the short end of the argument.

Chin up, old man.


BBS, the great majority of the Libyan people did not support their deranged dictator and are very happy to see him gone, despite all the current troubles on the ground. How could anyone support someone who siphoned out over $100 billion of their national wealth, stashed overseas in bank account and real estate portfolios, while the majority of their countrymen lived in realtive poverty? The libyan people are happy that the western powers are intervening to help them overthrow Big Brother, but I agree that many will start to feel uneasy about further military presence and interference in their national revolution once they complete their regime change.

This is kind of the answer to the OP's original question... let's wipe out the military remnants of the regime, arrest the ruling family and then get the hell our of Dodge. So I voted YES on that poll above, but only for another month or two, then I will vote "NO, let them sort their country out". Fair enough?

[BigBallinStalin]

BBS, the great majority of the Libyan people did not support their deranged dictator and are very happy to see him gone, despite all the current troubles on the ground.

"The great majority." How do you know? I'm asking for polls or something credible because I haven't found anything credible that can answer that question.

Also, think from their perspective: would you rather (1) live under Qaddafi, or (2) live through a probable civil war between various, rebel factions for X amount of years, followed by a likely dictatorship or a slim chance of a lasting, Western, liberal democracy?

How could anyone support someone who siphoned out over $100 billion of their national wealth, stashed overseas in bank account and real estate portfolios, while the majority of their countrymen lived in realtive poverty?

How can we stand to live in a country where these big shots have billions of dollars stashed away in overseas bank accounts and real estate portfolios? The truth is that it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. What makes people discontent is lack of wealth, lack of opportunities/social mobility, lack of justice, expensive basic goods, etc.

For example, in Qatar, it's practically a dictatorship, yet for everyone who is born, they get $100,000 US, and to keep the price of goods down, immigrants are allowed inside, but citizenship is extremely restricted. That works, and Qataris are more or less satisfied, so it doesn't matter if their head honcho makes billions.

The libyan people are happy that the western powers are intervening to help them overthrow Big Brother, but I agree that many will start to feel uneasy about further military presence and interference in their national revolution once they complete their regime change.

Again, how can you presume to know this?

Explain to me the facts you used in order to reach the conclusion that the Libyan people are happy that Qaddafi is being overthrown by the Western powers.

This is kind of the answer to the OP's original question... let's wipe out the military remnants of the regime, arrest the ruling family and then get the hell our of Dodge. So I voted YES on that poll above, but only for another month or two, then I will vote "NO, let them sort their country out". Fair enough?

That's not at all fair because the consequences of such a policy will lead to utter chaos. If you completely destroy the institutions which maintained social order, and afterward, NATO, UN, the IMF, and the World Bank all push for a legitimate central government while letting the "peacekeepers" leave, then it's no surprise that the various factions within a politically defined region will kill each other for that opportunity. That would be another Somalia ex-1991.

Your approach fosters the unaccountable death and destruction of many people and their homes. It's completely reckless, cold-hearted, and unproductive.

[General_Tao]

BBS, a lot of your questions would have been perfectly valid and salient in Iraq. The main difference in Libya is that the uprising was a strong indigenous movement already in progress. The foreign element was mostly in a support role to even out and reverse the military/hardware advantages of the regime. The fact that the rebels managed to capture pretty much the whole country without foreign ground troops tells you that the revolution is strongly represented by the people.

And your Qatar example is a good one here as well; the difference between the gulf states and Libya is that over there while the rulers did take a cut of the national revenues (oil exports mainly), they actually put most of that stream into a generous welfare state, which was made possible by the fact that their countries' populations were relatively small. Not the case in Libya, where a good chunk of their 6M citizens were relatively poor and the country poorly developed. Tripoli looks like a dump compared with Doha or Riyadh, despite being the capital of a rich nation. And Benghazi looked like a third world country.

As far as the opinion of people in Libya, none of the people I've met from there were remotely sympathetic to their dictator, and the picture you get from a variety of media sources, including the more reputable outlets, is actually very consistent with my personal experience. It wasn't the case with Iraq, where many people from there and from the region felt they were better off under Saddam's dictatorship, where they had a great deal of political and economic stability, with some of the best infrastructure and social benefits in the middle east.

[saxitoxin]

As I previously noted, I'm oot and posting from an iphone and may suffer spelling errors as result.

What I've not suffeted from is factual errors, however. for the fourth time, do you feel no intellectual embarrassment for your ridiculous string of discounted errors wrought from your prole dependence on us military industrial media?

your a typical chickenhawk, content to let thousands die as long as your own head isn't on the line ...the rebels take foreign volunteers, why don't you join if mass genocide is such a noble cause?

Your lie about the poverty of libyans is like ask your previous blowhard puke in this thread ... Libyans have free housing, healthcare, a $50,000 marriage allocation, just for starters.

you claim you want democracy then cheer the troops of brutal monarchies like qatar and uae that are fighting in libya ... I truly hope canada one day ends its slavish obedience to america for one minute so you can experience what the people of tripoli are going through tonight

[saxitoxin]

Looks like saxi is wrong yet again. Yestetday I said black africans were being executed by the oil mercs. Today cnn has finally posted a watered down report. As usual theirs is a dismissive lite version of what is being carried in the non english language media ... English ... The global language of lies ...

http://cnnmobile.com/primary/_cqxhFL-iU4nb7y9PuU

[saxitoxin]

This chickemhawk is so far removed n from reality its hilarious. as you read his lies about the poor state of libyan infrastructure, recall his many other proven falsehood s in this thread and realize he's just making it up as he goes along. He's a slightly more poorly composed version of player.

”general” tao ... If I got you recruitment info for the oil mercs would you join? I'm just a few miles from one of their terror compounds (aka embassies) atm and would be happy to pop in for you. I know it won't give you the options for massacre that the canadian forces affords what with their penchant for using somalian kids as target practice but I'm sure you'd be satisfied

[BigBallinStalin]

"um, that's not true, saxi! It's Western Media/US Indistrial COmplex!!1"

[saxitoxin]

Ok I think I need to divorce myself from this site for some time. I've enjoyed some wonderfully spirited debates in my time on CC but I'm clearly unable to approach this situation without emotion which does not serve this discussion in any meaningful way and I obviously am unable to continue to participate here without being attracted to this thread specifically.

I've experienced firsthand the lies and deceit that has always been the NATO hallmark - though certainly not a fraction of what qwert has been through - and it's neither reasonable nor civil for me to presume foreknowledge on others and then to react in a denigrative manner when such foreknowledge is absent.

Also I apologize to Tao for the last paragraph of my last message. I obviously do not really want him to experience the terror of Libyans and realize he is no more responsible for his worldview than a shopkeeper in Venice who casually supported Mussolini may have cheering the Italian "liberation" of Albania from King Zog. He is every much a victim of corporate nationalism and Zionism as the Libyans and it is vile for me to wish upon him some kind of cosmic retribution.

Best wishes my nieces and nephews, I look forward to our eventual reunion.

Uncle Saxi

[Qwert]

Wow Libyans will get democraty,and tomorow everybody will put weapons down,and will lived happy,when US,Italy,France and England will take hes Oil.
They will be free, and they will can everything what its on mind, and can criticize everything withouth fear from be prisoned. Ofcourse its now will be double poor, but fredom dont have price.
I just read that rebels execute in tripoli prisoners , well democraty its one nasty thing.

[thegreekdog]

Wow Libyans will get democraty,and tomorow everybody will put weapons down,and will lived happy,when US,Italy,France and England will take hes Oil.
They will be free, and they will can everything what its on mind, and can criticize everything withouth fear from be prisoned. Ofcourse its now will be double poor, but fredom dont have price.
I just read that rebels execute in tripoli prisoners , well democraty its one nasty thing.

Wait... you think Libya is going to be a western style liberal democracy?