Is this bad sportsmanship in FoW? (different issue)

[Mr_Adams]

So, I know a LOT of people say you shouldn't give away info in FoW, because it defeats the purpose. Well, what if you point out what can be logically deduced from the log? For example, in a feudal fog game, you point out that somebody has a village? Well, you can see that from the log, so it's information available to everybody, so is it somehow bad sportsmanship to point that out?

[Dako]

Not really, but risky. A lot of people do not know how to read the log and fog of war is a real fog for them. So yeah, others might think you gave out valuable information. Though I do not think it is a bad sportsmanship.

[Army of GOD]

I don't get how people think it defeats the purpose of fog if you give away information. There are a lot more uses to fog than that...

[Joodoo]

The sportsmanship really depends generality/specificness and other factors as well. Saying that someone has a village in a fogy Feudal game is not cheap as everyone can see that by looking at the game long, but saying that a player has, for example, Xeu Village should be frowned upon (unless it's a lie), especially if the said game was assassin.

[AndyDufresne]

Fog of War has always seemed to have the most interpretations of sportsmanship come along with it (maybe Freestyle is tied with it as well).

For the most part, I think I've always leaned on most anything goes in Fog of War, deception or pointing out facts included. But I rarely play the setting since I'm not a big fan of it anyways.


--Andy

[shieldgenerator7]

When i play FoW on Fuedal Epic I count how many territories in the log a player has counted. If it's over 7 (and no bombardments) then that means they've broken out of their 10 neutral cage. If it's under 7 then they're probably still only in their castle.
Some poeple think FoW is just a way to make things harder to see, and that giving away positions is part of strategy and not poor sportmanship. I don't like to play much FoW, and I usually don't say much anyway when I play games because my opponents hardly ever say anything.

[Mr_Adams]

for example, Xeu Village should be frowned upon (unless it's a lie), especially if the said game was assassin.

If you play this as a rule, it'd be sort of useless. Everybody would know. You'd have to throw truth in from time to time to double bluff your opponent.

When i play FoW on Fuedal Epic I count how many territories in the log a player has counted. If it's over 7 (and no bombardments) then that means they've broken out of their 10 neutral cage. If it's under 7 then they're probably still only in their castle.
Some poeple think FoW is just a way to make things harder to see, and that giving away positions is part of strategy and not poor sportmanship. I don't like to play much FoW, and I usually don't say much anyway when I play games because my opponents hardly ever say anything.

I love feudal. It is my highest map rank because of 5 man freestyle and 6 man sequential escalating foggy games

[Metsfanmax]

saying that a player has, for example, Xeu Village should be frowned upon (unless it's a lie)

So telling the truth is bad sportmanship and lying is good sportsmanship?

[Joodoo]

saying that a player has, for example, Xeu Village should be frowned upon (unless it's a lie)

So telling the truth is bad sportmanship and lying is good sportsmanship?

Not exactly good sportmanship, but it is a valid strategy because you aren't giving away real positions.
But telling the true positions and strength of your opponent to other players when that player is dominating the board could be acceptable.

[owenshooter]

well, before the side stats were introduced and you actually had to count territories and look for bonuses, it was considered faux paus to give that info away... that is why many considered BooB a cheat... just depends on how you look at it..-the black range rover

[Mr_Adams]

Yes, that was back when i racked up the huge map rank in feudal

[Metsfanmax]

well, before the side stats were introduced and you actually had to count territories and look for bonuses, it was considered faux paus to give that info away... that is why many considered BooB a cheat... just depends on how you look at it..-the black range rover

This is true, but of course BOB wasn't using any information you didn't have available to you based on the game log. We shouldn't reject a piece of technology that makes our lives easier; we should welcome it with open arms. The complainers are the ones who wouldn't have done the work to figure out who has bonuses, and therefore are the ones who weren't taking their games that seriously anyway.

[yourientete]

I think it's good sportmanship to use diplomacy in games. And clearly, giving information is part of diplomacy. The one giving information is also trying to say "I am a good information provider, I am trustful". You may have to answer. In the game chat or by gunboat diplomacy, whatever.

I rate the ones who complain about that as they are. Complainers.

[Serbia]

I find there are better things to complain about on this site than people giving away information, true of false, in FoW games. It's a strategy.

[squishyg]

I think it is bad sportsmanship, even though it's available in the log. I think a classier way to handle it is by drawing attention to the log in a more general way. For example, "by golly! I'm seeing some big numbers in the log!"

[KingBohica]

I don't see how it is bad sportsmanship. If everybody is always telling the truth when revealing information, it might be a bit stupid. Just remember to put on your poker face. If someone is giving away info about you, you can do the same to them. Or, you can bluff. I think this could actually add an interesting dimension. Say Red is being attacked by Green. Red shouts out something like "Hey, Green has been stacking and is plowing through me with 200 troops." The other players rally to help fearing that Green has become too powerful only to find out it was a ruse, Green is not that strong at all, Red dominates the game.

I always think it is funny when someone shouts out info about a player in a fog game, and that player then gets pissed and through their response basically confirms that the intel is true. If you don't like someone revealing information about you, make them out to be a liar! =]

[jfktolax]

I love FoW, it really filters out the point and click attack players. Also it seems to cut down on suicides (they don't really know where they are going by that point). Waterloo on FoW is my highest ranked map for sure.

Conversation in FoW is tricky. I have played many games with both dropping hints, and out right facts, as well as games without a word. Each game takes on its own personality with the players assembled.

I don't mind either way when it comes to talking in a FoW game. I can understand many players trepidation about not knowing what is around the corner, I wish there were more players interested in playing FoW.

Peace

[T7]

1944

Churchill: "The main invasion of France will occur in the Pas de Calais". (whispers: "Begin the invasion of Normandy!")

Hitler: "Awww, no fair!!"

----

Sun Tzu:

All warfare is based on deception.

----

What is there to discuss? If it's not breaking the Conquer Club rules, then it's on. It is war, after all.

If the enemy chooses not to use their cannon, why would I avoid use of my cannon? Blast them, take the advantage!

I'd rather win the war and be called a bad sportsman by the loser, than have to be a good sport about losing the war.

[Wallyz32]

Fog of War is a condition, not a rule. Open, in game communication is legal. I truly don't understand people who get upset about it. The reasoning to say it's unsportsmanlike is convoluted at best.

[Mr_Adams]

Fog of War is a condition, not a rule. Open, in game communication is legal. I truly don't understand people who get upset about it. The reasoning to say it's unsportsmanlike is convoluted at best.

We aren't talking about rules, we are talking about sportsmanship. You use both words, but I really don't think you know the difference in this case.

[Wallyz32]

Sportsmanship is playing with a good attitude and not cheating. Talking about a player's strength and position in a FoW is coordinating attacks, which is a prescribed method of diplomacy. You need to describe how coordinating attacks in a FoW game is unsportsmanlike. The inverse of the proposition, that whining about people conducting legal, open diplomacy is poor sportsmanship itself carries a stronger argument- complaint about legal tactics only because it makes it more difficult for you is indicative of a bad attitude about competing fairly and legally. "I don't like it" isn't an argument. Define sportsmanship as you see it, and make a case that following the explicit rules of the game doesnt meet the definition.

[T7]

[The Cheat]

If the condition of the game is FoW, then the participants should respect this condition and not reveal information that breaks the conditional. If one holds a view of diplomacy or sportsmanship that requires the breaking of this conditional, then perhaps that person should stick to playing sunny games. Call it a rule, call it a condition, call it whatever you want to ... if one point of playing a foggy match is remain shrouded under fog, then it is, in fact, poor form to reveal the locations of others, even if it can be deduced from the log. It should be obvious to everyone who plays this game that reading the log and calculating your next move based on the information you are given (FoW or not) is the baseline for good strategy, on par with looking at the map.

I agree with the sentiment that it is good strategy to mislead the locations of others in a FoW match, but if everyone would actually abide (Dude!) to the condition of FoW, then it would be pointless to provide location information in an attempt to mislead others since everyone would immediately recognize it as misleading information.

I prefer FoW because most do abide to this conditional, and it makes the triumph or treachery more meaningful and significant. Playing sunny gets boring when everyone can see what ought to happen on the board next for their survival/chance at victory. I'll make the argument that FoW requires more strategy and sportsmanship because, when given less information, more must be done to ensure your rate of success.

l8r

[Wallyz32]

"then the participants should respect this condition and not reveal information that breaks the condition.'

Respect the condition? The condition exists, regardless of whether you discuss location of troops in the comments.
You have to demonstrate how discussing coordinated attacks in the comments is unsportsmanlike.
Your argument here gets to the crux of the matter: "...If the point of playing a foggy match is remain shrouded under fog, then it is, in fact, poor form to reveal the locations of others, even if it can be deduced from the log. "

It is not the point to remain shrouded in the fog. The point is to win the game. Fog is a condition of the battle. By your logic, people should avoid getting bonuses in no spoils games, because the point of no spoils is to excessive accumulations of troops. Alliances in 8 person games are unsportsmanlike because its easier to win when everybody fights everybody else.

The central question for this dispute is whether open diplomacy is part of the game. It's should be obvious that it is.

[spurgistan]

The only way to reveal somebody's position in FoW would be to send the other players screenshots of their position. You shouldn't do that. Everything else is what you say their position is. A very important distinction, in my book. That said, I usually don't, because people will whine and make it not fun.