[UNKNOWN] Mafia Day 5 - The Disappearance [Abandoned]

[Rodion]

After a bit of discussion, I noticed a lot of WIFOM in his thinking

Can you show me at least 2 WIFOMs in my case? Because it's the third time you've mentioned it without actually showing proof.

[VioIet]

Man, this hasn't been easy to read up on. If I got this right, we should be able to cut a good deal out of the last few pages. The discussion between Rodion vs everyone wasn't actually worth reading. Just page after page of same opinions and defence. With a bit of metagaming here, I think we can say it's just Rodion who will stand behind his own opinions with his life.

This does not mean, however, that the reasons that caused the discussion aren't worth anything. Case still stands that Rodion has been cleverly pushing for information.

First he went after a name, stating clearly that he would GUARANTEE a solid case. After a bit of discussion, I noticed a lot of WIFOM in his thinking, and he would have found Bleed guilty one way or the other. The thing about it, is that he would probably have gotten away with it, if Rodion was able to make his actual case. The fact that he had to explain himself made matters bad for him.

Gimli comes into play, and Rodion immediatly starts nudging towards a claim, albeit without actually asking.

All in all, it's a lot of fishing going on. The possibility of trying to figure flavour out doesn't work here, as there are plenty of other paths to follow regarding flavour.

For now, it's enough to keep my vote on him.

Tell me about it.

Iliad also voted on me.

Fixed. Obrigado.

Why tell the mod this. Your honesty is good, but if you are pro-town, its better to let the mod forget the votes on you.

[Rodion]

Why tell the mod this. Your honesty is good, but if you are pro-town, its better to let the mod forget the votes on you.

I like things to be correct. Besides, strategically, someone could vote on me thinking he'd be sending me to L-1 when it was actually the hammer. All it would take is someone PMing Commander9 to tell him about that to get the VC corrected and me lynched.

And I'd be willing to think that letting the mod "forget" votes on you would be good for any faction you are a part of (provided nobody ends up noticing that later, of course), not only for those that are pro-town.

Careful, Violet, as someone could see that as a poor logic attempt to make me look less pro-town.

[strike wolf]

I am pretty much agree to this statement. There is nothing wrong with correcting vote count even if it is on yourself. At the very least it is not an effective scum tell nor would I expect anyone to make a case out of it if you didn't correct it.

[freezie]

[

Iliad also voted on me.

Fixed. Obrigado.

Why tell the mod this. Your honesty is good, but if you are pro-town, its better to let the mod forget the votes on you.

...WHAT?!

Are you telling me that cheating is a good way for town not to get lynched?


massivefosomguswifomlal violet


There is no reason not to get a vote count corrected. First, it's what you call honesty and fair-play. And sportmanship. Second, it prevents an accidental hammer.

[DoomYoshi]

[

Iliad also voted on me.

Fixed. Obrigado.

Why tell the mod this. Your honesty is good, but if you are pro-town, its better to let the mod forget the votes on you.

...WHAT?!

Are you telling me that cheating is a good way for town not to get lynched?


massivefosomguswifomlal violet


There is no reason not to get a vote count corrected. First, it's what you call honesty and fair-play. And sportmanship. Second, it prevents an accidental hammer.

QFT;

perhaps you could clarify what you meant by this Vio?

[targetman377]

I agree with correct votes on your self its just as freeze said. How is it better if you are town? how is it better for anybody? well?????

I will await your response but I am starting to think you are more scummy by the day.

[gimli1990]

i agree that there is no reason to not get a vote count correct.

[naxus]

Why are so many people looking for a deadline? Edoc, Gimli, I am asking you.

I believe that is because of the inactivity.

Due to my own inactivity I am sorry but I fell behind on reading this and am still catching.

Pretty sure flavor spec is useless at this point due to both the span of time and the pikachu thing mentioned.

FOS to Rodion for the guess at Gimli

More in a moment

[naxus]

Rodion has been somewhat rolefishing the whole day. He seems to be really over focused on the Flavor spec. Without another real lead and the numerous other reasons everyones brought fowards

Unvote vote Rodion

[edocsil]

Why are so many people looking for a deadline? Edoc, Gimli, I am asking you.

I believe that is because of the inactivity.

Due to my own inactivity I am sorry but I fell behind on reading this and am still catching.

Pretty sure flavor spec is useless at this point due to both the span of time and the pikachu thing mentioned.

FOS to Rodion for the guess at Gimli

More in a moment

Because the Flavor spec and role fucking is fucking useless and moronic, as I have stated more eloquently previously.

[Streaker]

After a bit of discussion, I noticed a lot of WIFOM in his thinking

Can you show me at least 2 WIFOMs in my case? Because it's the third time you've mentioned it without actually showing proof.

Sure.

Had you claimed you were from Romeo and Juliet, I'd have apologized for my behaviour and said I wouldn't pursue a case on you anymore (unless you gave me another reason in the future). I had, however, the feeling that there wouldn't be a third Romeo and Juliet character, unless he had an alignment other than town. That means that the only explanation that would allow me not to find you scummy was considered unlikely by me. I decided to ask because the odds looked pretty good. Any answer other than "I'm from Romeo and Juliet" would not explain why your vision was so narrow in suggesting a 3rd-party character from Romeo and Juliet and having to "wrap your head around" on why the Knights Templar were part of the theme.

[nagerous]

It would be really good if someone can give a brief summary of the rodion bandwagon.

[Rodion]

After a bit of discussion, I noticed a lot of WIFOM in his thinking

Can you show me at least 2 WIFOMs in my case? Because it's the third time you've mentioned it without actually showing proof.

Sure.

Had you claimed you were from Romeo and Juliet, I'd have apologized for my behaviour and said I wouldn't pursue a case on you anymore (unless you gave me another reason in the future). I had, however, the feeling that there wouldn't be a third Romeo and Juliet character, unless he had an alignment other than town. That means that the only explanation that would allow me not to find you scummy was considered unlikely by me. I decided to ask because the odds looked pretty good. Any answer other than "I'm from Romeo and Juliet" would not explain why your vision was so narrow in suggesting a 3rd-party character from Romeo and Juliet and having to "wrap your head around" on why the Knights Templar were part of the theme.

Sorry, I didn't get the "a lot of WIFOM" in the case. You just quoted it without making it clear.

Besides, you didn't quote the damn case. You quoted "why I thought I should start the case and how the case could have possibly failed". That's not "the case". The case, to put it simply, is how Bleed's behaviour can't be satisfactorily explained if his character is not from Shakespeare and his admission that he is not (from Shakespeare). I thought that, BY NOW, everything would be understood and I wouldn't have to make these explanations anymore. I almost felt bad when Freezie said I didn't have to make huge posts to explain something so simple. Apparently, I do.

[Rodion]

It would be really good if someone can give a brief summary of the rodion bandwagon.

I'll try to explain it in 10 simple steps. Take it with a grain of salt, as it comes from me.

1 - Bleed says something extremely weird.
2 - Rodion asks for Bleed to reveal his name.
3 - Several people take issues with Rodion's question.
4 - Rodion changes his question to a less intrusive one, the character book/play instead of his name.
5 - Bleed answers.
6 - Rodion makes a great case against Bleed (which Wolf said had "no inconsistencies").
7 - A small wagon on Bleed starts (Rodion + Freezie + Naxus + Safari willing to hammer).
8 - Enter Gimli. He says his character is french from the early 1400s.
9 - Rodion posts "Joan of Arc?" in reply to that.
10 - Rodion wagon starts for this huge sin of asking if a french character from the early 1400s is Joan of Arc (the most famous french character from the early 1400s).

[Bleed_Green]

would've forced bleed to either be caught in a lie or somehow admit the scummy flavour.

So, Iliad, now you're disputing the fact that I got an admission? Bleed admitted, but he chose to call it an "honest mistake derived from inexperience" rather than saying "ok, I'm scum, you got me".

IFOS™ Iliad. Yes, that's the invisible finger of suspicion, as visible fingers of suspicion are making people suspect me even more!

What did I admit? I gave you the name of my character and a brief definition of who he was. There was a connection between him and Shakespeare, I was asking a question at the time of everyone, no deadline was given so it was a harmless and was not way misleading. If you would have just said that their was no connection between shakespeare and the templars that this game looks to be pretty vast with multiple angles that would have been the end of it. But this spark something for you which is fine, since that is the game. So you started your investigation on me. I was completely honest with the everything that you said. But as the quote above states that you got an admission there was no admission other then I made and honest mistake for a beginner. But for some reason you like to twists words around and make it out to be more than what it is.

Up until this point I never thought of you as scum, but just someone looking for angles to determine mafia.. but the more and more I read your post and your aggressive play towards everyone I am starting to think that I may have been wrong about you and your character..

[Rodion]

But as the quote above states that you got an admission there was no admission other then I made and honest mistake for a beginner.

You bolded the wrong part of my commentary, I guess. I said that your admission was of the "honest mistake derived from inexperience" kind and NOT of the "ok, I'm scum, you got me" kind. I got evidence of admission (not that it is needed, as you've said it again just now).

As for calling me narrow minded, maybe i might have been.

after reading the above I can see where I was narrowed minded, I did not catch that and put it all together.. I was searching for a connection which I could not find. I think I was trying to look for an easier theme since this is only my 2nd game ever played

The only real fact that you have against me is that I was unable to determine the scope of the game like you were. This is easily done for your vast experience to the game and me just learning.

Now, it's obvious that people will not get caught in 1 mistake and confess they're scum. They'll rather come up with a reason for that honest mistake (lack of experience, lack of time, lack of attention, lack of intelligence, lack of will to play, whatever). And since people have no reasons to admit they are anti-town, getting someone to admit "honest mistake due to lack of something" is the best one can do as far as admissions go.

That was not a direct shot at you. It was actually in response to Streaker saying I got "nothing" out of my investigation. As an anti-town confession is not reasonable to expect (unless someone has a stunt to pull, like "traitor" or whatever), I actually got the best possible outcome.

[targetman377]

But as the quote above states that you got an admission there was no admission other then I made and honest mistake for a beginner.

You bolded the wrong part of my commentary, I guess. I said that your admission was of the "honest mistake derived from inexperience" kind and NOT of the "ok, I'm scum, you got me" kind. I got evidence of admission (not that it is needed, as you've said it again just now).

As for calling me narrow minded, maybe i might have been.

after reading the above I can see where I was narrowed minded, I did not catch that and put it all together.. I was searching for a connection which I could not find. I think I was trying to look for an easier theme since this is only my 2nd game ever played

The only real fact that you have against me is that I was unable to determine the scope of the game like you were. This is easily done for your vast experience to the game and me just learning.

Now, it's obvious that people will not get caught in 1 mistake and confess they're scum. They'll rather come up with a reason for that honest mistake (lack of experience, lack of time, lack of attention, lack of intelligence, lack of will to play, whatever). And since people have no reasons to admit they are anti-town, getting someone to admit "honest mistake due to lack of something" is the best one can do as far as admissions go.

That was not a direct shot at you. It was actually in response to Streaker saying I got "nothing" out of my investigation. As an anti-town confession is not reasonable to expect (unless someone has a stunt to pull, like "traitor" or whatever), I actually got the best possible outcome.

Rodion that is far from a clear cut case!!!

And to top it off it has to do with the theme (WHICH WE DO NOT KNOW) and him say something about a narrow game and you jump on him trying to get names out of him and names out of everyone.

[VioIet]

[

Iliad also voted on me.

Fixed. Obrigado.

Why tell the mod this. Your honesty is good, but if you are pro-town, its better to let the mod forget the votes on you.

...WHAT?!

Are you telling me that cheating is a good way for town not to get lynched?


massivefosomguswifomlal violet


There is no reason not to get a vote count corrected. First, it's what you call honesty and fair-play. And sportmanship. Second, it prevents an accidental hammer.

QFT;

perhaps you could clarify what you meant by this Vio?

I understand what everyone is saying and it makes sense. But i would never ever mention a vote on myself if the mod missed it. That is the mod's responsibility, not mine.

Fair play and sportsmanship have nothing to do with it.

If you don't correct the vote count- you are not cheating, and you are not being unfair, and you are not showing unsportsmanship. Like I said- that's the mod's job. Not the players.

Of course everyone over looks things sometimes, and nothing is wrong with mentioning to the mod that they may have overlooked a vote. But its not an obligation.

I have never seen someone correct a vote on themselves, so it came across as strange to me.

That's like- someone robbing you, and then you turning around and telling the robber, "oh here, i have one more dollar in my pocket; you forgot about it; please take it."

And before anyone says, oh that's different. I say, no, its the exact same thing. Makes no sense to me.

[strike wolf]

Well vio it has been pointed out it could potentially avoid mislynches because of bad vote counts.

I would say most of the time it does not get corrected by the person involved because a. someone else mentions it first or b. the person who the vote is on does not realize it is a bad vote count. IF you don't like to correct vote counts I guess I'm not going to push you into doing so but you shouldn't have a problem with Rodion doing it as it IS a sign of good sportsmanship.

[ShaggyDan]

Just a blanket posts to my mafia games. I'm really swamped with work at the moment, and am unable to do much else than jump on and quickly take my turns. This will probably be the case for the next 3 days or so. Sorry for my lack of activity over the last few days, and over the coming few days. I shall try to make it up to you with as much meat in my posts as possible.

[Iliad]

I'll try to explain it in 10 simple steps. Take it with a grain of salt, as it comes from me.

1 - Bleed says something extremely weird.

Extremely weird being a bit of flavour speculation in which he posed a question on how the Knight Templars and characters from Shakespeare plays were related.

2 - Rodion asks for Bleed to reveal his name.

You demanded a claim from Bleed, refusing to disclose why. I cannot possibly see why you thought his flavour speculation was grounds enough for an immediate claim. All you had was a post that suggested that his character was somehow related to Shakespeare.

3 - Several people take issues with Rodion's question.

People naturally ask what case does Rodion have for demanding a name claim, each one attacked by Rodion as impeding his hunt for scum.

4 - Rodion changes his question to a less intrusive one, the character book/play instead of his name.

Interestingly enough Rodion was here prepared to continue the case on Bleed regardless of his claim.

5 - Bleed answers.
6 - Rodion makes a great case against Bleed (which Wolf said had "no inconsistencies").

I like the citation but your entire case rested on Bleed's flavour speculation which implied that he was connected to Shakespeare, and Bleed's later admission that he wasn't a character of Shakespeare.

7 - A small wagon on Bleed starts (Rodion + Freezie + Naxus + Safari willing to hammer).

I'm not sure if they were willing to hammer, rather than adding more pressuring and voting.

8 - Enter Gimli. He says his character is french from the early 1400s.
9 - Rodion posts "Joan of Arc?" in reply to that.

10 - Rodion wagon starts for this huge sin of asking if a french character from the early 1400s is Joan of Arc (the most famous french character from the early 1400s).

And more importantly, since you are still trying to deny it, for the fact that you have flagrantly been rolefishing all day.

There's several reasons this is much better for scum.
Firstly scum now have a much better grasp of the scope of the theme, making fakeclaims much easier.

Rolefishing gives away town strengths as well, making it easier for cult to find townies and mafia to weaken town.

As scummy as Rodion has been, Bleed's posts still have been interesting. It has crossed my mind that perhaps Rodion is trying to do what I did in Commander's last game on day 2. I was a serial killer who stumbled upon another during town, as I inferred through the night scene. It is entirely possible that this is what happened with Rodion who stumbled onto bleed. Perhaps depending on Bleed's inexperience he was hoping to attack Bleed, get him to crack under pressure, drop a scumtell or contradict himself and after Bleed's lynch earn himself town's respect.

I'm saying this because there has been a marked change between the more passive Rodion yesterday and the agressive way in which he demanded Bleed's claim before any other discussion even began.

The other possibility that I could see is that Rodion's change in style is due to an actual change in alignment. The night scene mentioned something about a shadow meeting with someone and conspiring so perhaps it was hinting at this.

Regardless Rodion deserves to be lynched today

[strike wolf]

All of iliad's points on role fishing are valid and I agree that bleed is also interesting and warrants some future consideration on some of his posts. As for your theories of why rodion may be acting like this...they are certainly interesting...I do not know if they are the most likely theories (him being a cult recruit makes more sense then the other imo) but it is interesting.

[safariguy5]

All of iliad's points on role fishing are valid and I agree that bleed is also interesting and warrants some future consideration on some of his posts. As for your theories of why rodion may be acting like this...they are certainly interesting...I do not know if they are the most likely theories (him being a cult recruit makes more sense then the other imo) but it is interesting.

Yes, but there was no indication from the night scene of cult recruitment. Granted, the end of the night scene did say that other things might have happened, but we can't definitively say right now.

[Rodion]

Iliad:

1 - That + the "Paris" speculation

2 - I demanded a "name" claim, not a "full" claim. What I had was enough and that can be seen by the fact that his speculation suggested a shakespearean character, which he later acknowledged he wasn't.

3 - Guilty as charged. Would have done it again if given another opportunity.

4 - Can you explain that, please? I just made another question that would actually lower my odds of catching a contradiction, but I still managed to catch it. Should I have dropped everything just because people didn't see through Bleed's inconsistent speculation as far as I did?

5/6 - You're correct. The one difference here is that I think that is enough and you don't.

7 - So stop skimming and get your facts straight before you try to disagree with me just for the sake of it.

Now I see where Rodion is going with this, quite clever. I'd put some pressure on Bleed_Green, but it seems that certain people *ahem freezie and ndrs ahem* think that I'm pushing for the easy lynch, so I'll wait and hammer later if need be.

8/9/10 - I'm too new in mafia to know what you mean by "flagrantry rolefishing", but all I did in searching for roles was:
a) ask for someone's name after he seemed really suspicious
b) merely ask a player who had already given a huge hint towards his name to confirm the most obvious candidate

I did not ask for powers, alignments or anything else you might deem important, I only asked for 2 names: 1 from a player that was really suspicious and 1 from a player that had already given like 80% of his character's name. If you think that is "flagrantry rolefishing all day", you (all) can try to get me lynched and see what happens.

Finally, comparing someone D1's passive behaviour to his D2's agressive one is not nice. The transition from D1 (no clues, no flavour, no investigation, no nothing) to D2 (some clues, some flavour, some investigation) is huge and enough to account for someone's different posture.