Matrix mafia Day 3 - no-one died? [Abandoned]

[TheSaxlad]

ebwop- according to my vote tally edoc is on 5 (inc the 00icon vote which he says has no voting powers) and im on 4 after / unvoted, aage miscounted cause edoc was obv very intent on my lynch and did a vioiet in page 28.

Edoc mate. Votes dont stack.

[Flow520]

fine, you want me to prove my lack of voting powers, vote: edocsil.

Could we get a mod votecount to confirm this?

Regarding Edocsil's argument:

7. PG 27 Flow says that Icon lost his voting power. Icon had been unclear on this IMO Says there could be consequences for a lynch

00iCon said on page 25 right after being lynched,

I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well :/

It's omissions like this that poke holes in your string of logic...
00iCon stated the consequence of being lynched and just a short seven posts later in the game edoc hops on a starting bandwageon for TheSaxlad who claims unlynchable.
It just seems like a nice tactic for scum to me. 1) Find out that lynching an unlynchable townie results in nerfed unvoting townie. 2) Push strongly for the lynch of anyone who claims unlynchable while trying to ignore/distort the consequences.

On another note, IF TheSaxlad is lying about being an investigative role, then (assuming there is an investigative role in the game) it can be discovered by tomorrow.
Bottom line, it would be very bad to have a second powerless unvoting confirmed townie...
Hopefully, as soon as aage posts the official vote count and 00iCon (who just voted) is not listed, this will become clear.

[Haggis_McMutton]

If I am to die today, then I believe that there are at least 3 scum. Edocsil, Strike Wolf and Safariguy.

I hope that if I die they will be the subject of whatever powers you have left.

Sorry to be the one to bring this up, mate, but YOU CLAIMED UNLYNCHABLE.

Now, his unlynchability means not only that he'll lose his active powers but it also means that he'll die ...

What the hell must he do for you people to see that he's making this up as he goes along, and he's doing a very bad job of it ...

Also, I'd like to see if icon's vote counts as well. Even if it doesn't count it's not evidence supporting Sax since he claimed after icon said he believes he lost his vote. SO he could have very easily put the losing powers bit in to be consistent with icon's claim.

[TheSaxlad]

If I am to die today, then I believe that there are at least 3 scum. Edocsil, Strike Wolf and Safariguy.

I hope that if I die they will be the subject of whatever powers you have left.

Sorry to be the one to bring this up, mate, but YOU CLAIMED UNLYNCHABLE.

Now, his unlynchability means not only that he'll lose his active powers but it also means that he'll die ...

What the hell must he do for you people to see that he's making this up as he goes along, and he's doing a very bad job of it ...

Also, I'd like to see if icon's vote counts as well. Even if it doesn't count it's not evidence supporting Sax since he claimed after icon said he believes he lost his vote. SO he could have very easily put the losing powers bit in to be consistent with icon's claim.

to be perfectly honest losing active powers is practically the same as dieing as I become useless.

[strike wolf]

well we know who at least two scum are. Even without that contradiction from sax, flow has defended him way too aggressively for them to be just two regular townies. Lynch sax and hopefully we can get a vig kill on flow tonight.

[aage]

Votecount

1. Tailgunner
2. Edoc 4 (Freezie(=Mr. Squirrel), Flow, xuereb, Saxlad)
3. VioIet 1 (saxlad)
4. Haggis
5. Mr. Squirrel
6. Strike Wolf
7. TheSaxlad 5 (Edoc'sil, strike wolf, Fircoal, Haggis, Safariguy)
8. Commander9 1 (vioIet (no they don't stack))
9. 00iCon
10. Flow520
11. xuereb 1 (Tails)
12. /
13. Chu
14. Safariguy5

14 alive, 8 to lynch.

ebwop- according to my vote tally edoc is on 5 (inc the 00icon vote which he says has no voting powers) and im on 4 after / unvoted, aage miscounted cause edoc was obv very intent on my lynch and did a vioiet in page 28

Its the other way around actually, you missed Safariguy's vote on the previous page. However I might also be missing a vote on Edoc'sil, please let me know if you find it.

On a side note, brilliant mafia theme here aage. Major props for that.

You should see the Bourne mafia plot I have put down lol

[TheSaxlad]

well we know who at least two scum are. Even without that contradiction from sax, flow has defended him way too aggressively for them to be just two regular townies. Lynch sax and hopefully we can get a vig kill on flow tonight.

Yeah. The Oracle and Seraph.

I dont think they are normal townies really do you?

Now you on the other hand. Distanced yourself nicely from edoc in the first vote off by voting for him, but when it comes to someone who has claimed the oracle, more than happy to jump on his bandwagon. I know youre a good player strike and thats exactly how you would play. TBH I hope edocsil is lynched and then Ill be able to investigate / track you tonight.

[strike wolf]

sigh let's review the evidence:

1. The first icon bandwagon for reasons more than editing his posts is starting up. You come in during the middle of it saying something along the lines of let's just go ahead and quick lynch him so we can get to night. Majorly scummy.
2. A few pages later you post a big analysis post that features a lot of jumping to a conclusion that there was no way you had evidence for day 1 and featured some character analysis that I believe to be blatantly inaccurate and a few that I know are inaccurate.
3. Icon is "lynched" and loses his abilities.
4. I decide to go with you as the next best choice, you claim unlynchable, I decide that I don't really believe you but the risks for lynching you aren't that great since you are unlynchable anyways which starts a piecework claim that you put together one step at a time (you went from Unlynchable to unlynchable and conditionally bulletproof to the Oracle to conditionally unlynchable and conditionally bulletproof to a conditionally unlynchable and conditionally bulletproof super cop who seems to be able to do everything but fly and shoot laser beams out of her eyes.)
5. At some point flow comes in and mentions there may some consequences to you being lynched at which point you start claiming you'll lose your vote and your night actions.
6. Your defense isn't working so you and flow start aggressively going after edoc.
7. All of a sudden you contradict yourself by saying if you die to day. You didn't say if I lose all my abilities you said if you die and when haggis calls you out for it, you come back with how losing your abilities is like dying. A weak excuse.

[edocsil]

fine, you want me to prove my lack of voting powers, vote: edocsil.

Could we get a mod votecount to confirm this?

Regarding Edocsil's argument:

7. PG 27 Flow says that Icon lost his voting power. Icon had been unclear on this IMO Says there could be consequences for a lynch

00iCon said on page 25 right after being lynched,

I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well :/

It's omissions like this that poke holes in your string of logic...
00iCon stated the consequence of being lynched and just a short seven posts later in the game edoc hops on a starting bandwageon for TheSaxlad who claims unlynchable.
It just seems like a nice tactic for scum to me. 1) Find out that lynching an unlynchable townie results in nerfed unvoting townie. 2) Push strongly for the lynch of anyone who claims unlynchable while trying to ignore/distort the consequences.

On another note, IF TheSaxlad is lying about being an investigative role, then (assuming there is an investigative role in the game) it can be discovered by tomorrow.
Bottom line, it would be very bad to have a second powerless unvoting confirmed townie...
Hopefully, as soon as aage posts the official vote count and 00iCon (who just voted) is not listed, this will become clear.

He said "I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well" not "I have lost my voting powers as well" That statement left a gap large enough for a lawyer to drive a bus through. Glad we have it confirmed now

[TheSaxlad]

fine, you want me to prove my lack of voting powers, vote: edocsil.

Could we get a mod votecount to confirm this?

Regarding Edocsil's argument:

7. PG 27 Flow says that Icon lost his voting power. Icon had been unclear on this IMO Says there could be consequences for a lynch

00iCon said on page 25 right after being lynched,

I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well :/

It's omissions like this that poke holes in your string of logic...
00iCon stated the consequence of being lynched and just a short seven posts later in the game edoc hops on a starting bandwageon for TheSaxlad who claims unlynchable.
It just seems like a nice tactic for scum to me. 1) Find out that lynching an unlynchable townie results in nerfed unvoting townie. 2) Push strongly for the lynch of anyone who claims unlynchable while trying to ignore/distort the consequences.

On another note, IF TheSaxlad is lying about being an investigative role, then (assuming there is an investigative role in the game) it can be discovered by tomorrow.
Bottom line, it would be very bad to have a second powerless unvoting confirmed townie...
Hopefully, as soon as aage posts the official vote count and 00iCon (who just voted) is not listed, this will become clear.

He said "I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well" not "I have lost my voting powers as well" That statement left a gap large enough for a lawyer to drive a bus through. Glad we have it confirmed now

Edoc this is cc mafia not a court case. calm down.

[edocsil]

I am beginning to find you less and less funny sax. The only word I used to describe my emotions in that last sentence was "Glad", nothing suggested anger or frustration. The "Calm Down" was unneeded and quite frankly the whole post was useless drivel as a whole. You spend 2/3 of you time wasting everyone else's time, that combined with you numerous contradictions to your own claim is why my vote is one you.

[TheSaxlad]

I am beginning to find you less and less funny sax. The only word I used to describe my emotions in that last sentence was "Glad", nothing suggested anger or frustration. The "Calm Down" was unneeded and quite frankly the whole post was useless drivel as a whole. You spend 2/3 of you time wasting everyone else's time, that combined with you numerous contradictions to your own claim is why my vote is one you.

Or because of the fact your scum and having the oracle out of your way would suit you nicely. No investigate and one less vote to put on you.

[Flow520]

4. I decide to go with you as the next best choice, you claim unlynchable, I decide that I don't really believe you but the risks for lynching you aren't that great since you are unlynchable anyways which starts a piecework claim that you put together one step at a time

Usually people do not claim unless they must (L-2, L-1 etc) and in general they only give enough information away to save themselves from a lynch. It makes perfect sense to give away only the part of your role that you think will help protect from the lynch. In this case the unlynchable claim because of the consequences of loosing abilities and vote. Pressure of lynch continued (Instigated mainly by two people...) so more role information was divulged piece by piece.

5. At some point flow comes in and mentions there may some consequences to you being lynched at which point you start claiming you'll lose your vote and your night actions.

No, 00iCon mentioned the consequences directly after being lynched. (This was before the witchhunt on TheSaxlad started) I brought them again to everyone's attention because they were being glossed over/ignored by the main aggressors of TheSaxlad. Now, it has been proven by 00iCon's absent vote in the last vote count.

As previously stated, It's not like the claim cant be tested.

On another note, IF TheSaxlad is lying about being an investigative role, then (assuming there is an investigative role in the game) it can be discovered by tomorrow.
Bottom line, it would be very bad to have a second powerless unvoting confirmed townie...

I think it's much better to wait 1 night than to run the risk of nerfing the Oracle into a voteless powerless townie.
It's not like town doesnt have other leads on scum to consider... The main one being Edoc with 4 votes currently and pages of outlined scummy behavior...

[edocsil]

4. I decide to go with you as the next best choice, you claim unlynchable, I decide that I don't really believe you but the risks for lynching you aren't that great since you are unlynchable anyways which starts a piecework claim that you put together one step at a time

Usually people do not claim unless they must (L-2, L-1 etc) and in general they only give enough information away to save themselves from a lynch. It makes perfect sense to give away only the part of your role that you think will help protect from the lynch. In this case the unlynchable claim because of the consequences of loosing abilities and vote. Pressure of lynch continued (Instigated mainly by two people...) so more role information was divulged piece by piece.

5. At some point flow comes in and mentions there may some consequences to you being lynched at which point you start claiming you'll lose your vote and your night actions.

No, 00iCon mentioned the consequences directly after being lynched. (This was before the witchhunt on TheSaxlad started) I brought them again to everyone's attention because they were being glossed over/ignored by the main aggressors of TheSaxlad. Now, it has been proven by 00iCon's absent vote in the last vote count.

As previously stated, It's not like the claim cant be tested.

On another note, IF TheSaxlad is lying about being an investigative role, then (assuming there is an investigative role in the game) it can be discovered by tomorrow.
Bottom line, it would be very bad to have a second powerless unvoting confirmed townie...

I think it's much better to wait 1 night than to run the risk of nerfing the Oracle into a voteless powerless townie.
It's not like town doesnt have other leads on scum to consider... The main one being Edoc with 4 votes currently and pages of outlined scummy behavior...

Wouldn't that be nice getting the real cop to claim. Lets hypothetically say Sax comes up innocent and a cop backs him up on that, woops recruited cop, town is fucked. I would rather have a voteless confirmed townie then a lying knife in the back.

[strike wolf]

[January 23, 11:01 PM] Flow520: I dont think we should lynch Sax. When we lynched Sati, there was a consequence. IE loss of voting power.
Who knows what the consequence of lynching the oracle could be? If it's also loss of voting power, can we afford to have two confirmed townies that cant vote?

[January 24, 12:21 AM] thesaxlad: Guys if you lynch me then you lose both the investigative role and a tracker.

I bet the scum are laughing right now.

So thanks guys. gg scum.

This is the first time Sax actually mentioned there would be consequences to his lynch and it was after you had mentioned it. I also addressed the fact that icon lost his abilities in my post but like a lot of other evidence you omitted it.

As far as sax's claim is concerned. Yes you shouldn't claim till the last minute the only thing worse though is giving out your claim piece by piece by piece by piece. It had low credibility and as I've stated Sax has contradicted himself (I really like how you cut out the places where I showed that he did out of the quote). So no I don't feel like letting him live one night when he could be the godfather and immune to investigations is the greatest idea ever.

[Haggis_McMutton]

This whole argument has become ridiculous. Sax is one of the clearest lynches I've ever seen. He's acted constantly scummy throughout the game and once the pressure was put on not only did he take his scumminess up a notch, made a ridiculous claim(which he keeps adding to), but he was also seriously unhelpful and constantly told half-truths(to be generous and not call them lies by omission).
Meanwhile Flow has clearly shown that she is linked with Sax.

I think it's just a matter of waiting for some of the less active players to catch up with this thread now.
Chu, /, Commader, Mr. S and Tails, got anything to add? If not let's lynch this guy already ...

[Flow520]

Nice Strike, but you didn't go back far enough. I don't know where you keep getting the idea that I was the first tell everyone that there were consequences for lynching an unlynchable person.
Right after 00iCon was lynched.
Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:29 pm 00iCon

I believe i've lost my voting powers now as well :/

This lets us know there are consequences to being lynched even if you are unlynchable.

A couple people start going after TheSaxlad.
TheSaxlad gives away a piece of role info (unlynchable)

Usually people do not claim unless they must (L-2, L-1 etc) and in general they only give enough information away to save themselves from a lynch. It makes perfect sense to give away only the part of your role that you think will help protect from the lynch. In this case the unlynchable claim because of the consequences of loosing abilities and vote. Pressure of lynch continued (Instigated mainly by two people...) so more role information was divulged piece by piece.

Pressure against TheSaxlad continues. Then I try to remind everyone of what happened with 00iCon:

[January 23, 11:01 PM] Flow520: I dont think we should lynch Sax. When we lynched Sati, there was a consequence. IE loss of voting power.
Who knows what the consequence of lynching the oracle could be? If it's also loss of voting power, can we afford to have two confirmed townies that cant vote?

Pressure against TheSaxlad continues.
TheSaxlad gives away more role information.
Pressure against TheSaxlad continues.
TheSaxlad attempts to state rather bluntly what is at stake:

[January 24, 12:21 AM] thesaxlad: Guys if you lynch me then you lose both the investigative role and a tracker.

TheSaxlad is just trying to keep town from making a big mistake. The scum among us just aren't taking head...

[strike wolf]

*bangs head against desk* I never said that you were the first to mention it. I said that you DID mention it. The very next post not after more pressure is mounted against him, the very next post sax says that it has consequences that was my point. the fact that you mentioned something and saxlad suddenly posts hey I'll lose all my powers if you lynch me. I don't know why you insist on defending him...even if you were his scum buddy you really should have betrayed him a while ago.

[Mr. Squirrel]

This entire setup has given me a headache trying to wrap my brain around what could possibly be happening here... Replacing was a bad idea...

That said, now that I have committed myself, I might as well give my thoughts. Saxlad has been about as scummy as scummy could be. I would vote for him now, but no one else has counterclaimed oracle... Which basically confirms he is town... This game is completely topsy-turvy. The scummiest people are being confirmed as town and the town is only getting more questions rather than finding answers. Honestly, I have no idea where to go here. Complicated setups always screw with my head.

My only issue (well, its the only issue I feel like tackling right now) is sax's overpowered claim. I want him to give us a clear, concise description of all of his abilities and immunities. Be honest. If you lied about something, tell us. I just want answers, not a target.

[edocsil]

This entire setup has given me a headache trying to wrap my brain around what could possibly be happening here... Replacing was a bad idea...

That said, now that I have committed myself, I might as well give my thoughts. Saxlad has been about as scummy as scummy could be. I would vote for him now, but no one else has counterclaimed oracle... Which basically confirms he is town... This game is completely topsy-turvy. The scummiest people are being confirmed as town and the town is only getting more questions rather than finding answers. Honestly, I have no idea where to go here. Complicated setups always screw with my head.

My only issue (well, its the only issue I feel like tackling right now) is sax's overpowered claim. I want him to give us a clear, concise description of all of his abilities and immunities. Be honest. If you lied about something, tell us. I just want answers, not a target.

Or perhaps the Oracle is being intelligent and trying to lynch him rather then exposing themselves to recruitment.

[safariguy5]

This entire setup has given me a headache trying to wrap my brain around what could possibly be happening here... Replacing was a bad idea...

That said, now that I have committed myself, I might as well give my thoughts. Saxlad has been about as scummy as scummy could be. I would vote for him now, but no one else has counterclaimed oracle... Which basically confirms he is town... This game is completely topsy-turvy. The scummiest people are being confirmed as town and the town is only getting more questions rather than finding answers. Honestly, I have no idea where to go here. Complicated setups always screw with my head.

My only issue (well, its the only issue I feel like tackling right now) is sax's overpowered claim. I want him to give us a clear, concise description of all of his abilities and immunities. Be honest. If you lied about something, tell us. I just want answers, not a target.

Or perhaps the Oracle is being intelligent and trying to lynch him rather then exposing themselves to recruitment.

Completely possible given that the Oracle probably has strong powers too. I know this isn't your first game Sax, but when someone claims, they claim all their abilities at once, not part by part as pressure intensifies. And changing your claim looks pretty bad too. Nice OMGUS accusation at the end of Page 31 on me btw, way to avoid the valid concerns I raised about the character according to the movie and the implications of too many unlynchable townies. At this point, even if you are the Oracle with those powers, Agent Smith is going to recruit you anyways. I'd be happy to have you alive and VT over recruited and near indestructible.

[Mr. Squirrel]

At this point, even if you are the Oracle with those powers, Agent Smith is going to recruit you anyways. I'd be happy to have you alive and VT over recruited and near indestructible.

Thats the issue. Having an unlynchable character on the scum or cult side is gamebreaking for town. Lynching is the only guaranteed way that the town can kill anyone. If there isn't a vigilante or if he is killed, then town has no possible way of winning. This probably is not the case here (I have more faith in the mod) but if somehow this happens town might as well just all commit suicide.

[TheSaxlad]

Right. Firstly I admit I did lie about being unlynchable. it was meant to be a defense mechanism to stop you lynching me but obviously backfired.

Now Powers. Completely Bulletproof unless seraph dies. Im guessing flow to be seraph so she will need some protection tonight from edoc... I mean scum.

I can Investigate and track. However! Only one person at once so say I used my powers on edoc. He would come up scum and id be able to see that he'd gone to a townie in the night.

Yes i lied. yes I shouldnt have done. But if you lynch me the scum had won.

Based on my view of the game at this precise moment the scum could be:

Edoc: Reasons: been pushing way too hard for people to lynch me. I think he believes I am the oracle and wants me out of the way for obvious reasons. Getting slightly hysterical now things are being thought about

I am beginning to find you less and less funny sax. The only word I used to describe my emotions in that last sentence was "Glad", nothing suggested anger or frustration. The "Calm Down" was unneeded and quite frankly the whole post was useless drivel as a whole. You spend 2/3 of you time wasting everyone else's time, that combined with you numerous contradictions to your own claim is why my vote is one you.

Haggis: Didnt think so before but now everyone is thinking about it and asking questions has also became more hysterical

This whole argument has become ridiculous. Sax is one of the clearest lynches I've ever seen. He's acted constantly scummy throughout the game and once the pressure was put on not only did he take his scumminess up a notch, made a ridiculous claim(which he keeps adding to), but he was also seriously unhelpful and constantly told half-truths(to be generous and not call them lies by omission).
Meanwhile Flow has clearly shown that she is linked with Sax.

Yes because she is seraph. I believe

Strike Wolf: Unsure about alignment. Could be scum but that would mean all three scum pressing hard for the lynch which when I come out town and everyone looks back would be complete suicide. Also been arguing with flow and losing over the past couple of pages.

These are the main people I personally think should be looked into. Others include safariguy and VioIet (who I believe is possibly cypher.)

Ok. now can people please see sense and unvote me.

Kthanxbai.

[strike wolf]

Sorry but I don't consider someone omitting pieces of my argument in a way that hardly seemed accidental and rebutting it via the portions of arguments that omit these parts to make their post look stronger as thoroughly beating me in an argument. The way Flow argued his/her posts (sorry just not sure whether you're a guy or a girl) actually made him/herself look scummier for omitting that data.

However, I had been expecting someone to counter your oracle claim eventually and seeing how now that everyone who replaced seems to have read up and not done so I guess I have to believe you for the moment being. unvote

[edocsil]

I knew you were lying. What to do with you now? I can only assume you are telling the truth now. Oh, and by the way if you manage to live through to tomorrow I would welcome the investigation, it would stop all of the foolish accusations against me.