The King's Court [Quenched]

[chipv]

Trouble at the moment is still that 1v1 is very difficult to win going second even if the 2nd player is much better.

The archers are fine, and extremely useful for going round the board.
Catapults probably need a range increase but even then the first player can rack up enough bonus
to render this defence useless.

The proposed changes would be to form a wall of neutral 2s around the castles and also increase village neutrals to 3.
This would both make it harder to kill after the 2nd round but also harder to retaliate.
Reducing the K Knights to 2 neutral would make it easier to move around for both players.
We can try 3 to begin with if people prefer but I do think 2 solves the problem.

Last consideration is to code the XML so 1v1 starts with 3 castles not all 4. This might be a lot better.

[Kabanellas]

Last consideration is to code the XML so 1v1 starts with 3 castles not all 4. This might be a lot better.

that would solve the 1v1 issue - players could even start with only 2 castles each.

This would mean less firepower in the beginning and also the random location factor for fog games, where you wouldn't know where your opponent castles are. This would also add extra value for trebuchets that have a line of sight for 3 castles.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Last consideration is to code the XML so 1v1 starts with 3 castles not all 4. This might be a lot better.

that would solve the 1v1 issue - players could even start with only 2 castles each.

This would mean less firepower in the beginning and also the random location factor for fog games, where you wouldn't know where your opponent castles are. This would also add extra value for trebuchets that have a line of sight for 3 castles.

I think that coding the XML so that players start with 2-3 castles in 1v1 would be a good way of fixing the problem. From what I recall from playing 1v1 games on the map a couple weeks ago the major way of getting bonuses was through the knights and castle bonuses. Starting with only 2 or 3 castles would help this significantly. It would also reduce the number of bonuses that the first player would get from the other units surrounding them.

[Winged Cat]

Having played 1v1 and in groups - the archers, catapults, and trebuchets seem to be useless. Whoever goes for them loses. Likewise, the court does not seem to be useful except as a gateway to the king (en route to the castles).

A consistent winning strategy I've seen - again, in 1v1 and in groups - is knights, villages, and only those neutrals needed to reach and take someone else's castle, and surrounding noble/knights/villages. Get one more castle than anyone else, then snowball from there. This works well enough that any other strategy is ruled out - and it's up to dice luck if the first attacker can take a castle, or if the attacker can't do it and the attacked one is intact enough to retaliate.

[nemrehs1]

I am currently playing a 8 player standard game on this map, and i have gotten 24 troops stuck on archers, because i can only fort to other archers with them. The same is with my Catapult. I have no way of using them now and over 30 troops are useless to me.

[pimphawks70]

I am currently playing a 8 player standard game on this map, and i have gotten 24 troops stuck on archers, because i can only fort to other archers with them. The same is with my Catapult. I have no way of using them now and over 30 troops are useless to me.

And?

The map says they can only bombard, that's just a tactical error by advancing all your troops.

And I like changing the Knights to 3's. 2 would make them too powerful IMO, but 3 would be a very ideal balance.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I am currently playing a 8 player standard game on this map, and i have gotten 24 troops stuck on archers, because i can only fort to other archers with them. The same is with my Catapult. I have no way of using them now and over 30 troops are useless to me.

As pimphawks said, that is a tactical error, not a map flaw.

The archers are very useful for moving around the board and taking out entire castle areas with the exception of the noble in the court. This can go a long way to crippling an opponent. The catapults are useful both for recovering from an attack on your castle, as you can use the troops to knock down any extra troops left behind by the attacker, then use the remaining small amount of troops on a hex that can assault stuff. The catapults are also useful in taking out large areas of things through the trebuchets.

[chipv]

Good post, Tanarri.

Just to expand on why the King's Court, archers, catapults and trebuchets are useful.

If you don't use these at all you are liable to get beaten a lot on this map, simple as that.
I suggest players who haven't seen the need to use these, experiment and see why they are necessary.

[thebest712]

Good post, Tanarri.

Just to expand on why the King's Court, archers, catapults and trebuchets are useful.

If you don't use these at all you are liable to get beaten a lot on this map, simple as that.
I suggest players who haven't seen the need to use these, experiment and see why they are necessary.

never have used them , well I almost only did 1vs1 on it :p

[chipv]

Good post, Tanarri.

Just to expand on why the King's Court, archers, catapults and trebuchets are useful.

If you don't use these at all you are liable to get beaten a lot on this map, simple as that.
I suggest players who haven't seen the need to use these, experiment and see why they are necessary.

never have used them , well I almost only did 1vs1 on it :p

I guess it doesn't matter if you are lightning fast at freestyle speed...

[MrBenn]

Last consideration is to code the XML so 1v1 starts with 3 castles not all 4. This might be a lot better.

I don;t think this can be easily done, as you need the positions to group together nobles/castle pairs

[chipv]

Last consideration is to code the XML so 1v1 starts with 3 castles not all 4. This might be a lot better.

I don;t think this can be easily done, as you need the positions to group together nobles/castle pairs

I sent you guys a PM about this.

[Chewie1]

I am currently playing a 8 player standard game on this map, and i have gotten 24 troops stuck on archers, because i can only fort to other archers with them. The same is with my Catapult. I have no way of using them now and over 30 troops are useless to me.

And?

The map says they can only bombard, that's just a tactical error by advancing all your troops.

And I like changing the Knights to 3's. 2 would make them too powerful IMO, but 3 would be a very ideal balance.

Look...what i figured is that even though they could only bombard, i could fort out of it...in feudal war the castles can bombard but they can fort out...i just figured if i put my archers on i could fort off...

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I am currently playing a 8 player standard game on this map, and i have gotten 24 troops stuck on archers, because i can only fort to other archers with them. The same is with my Catapult. I have no way of using them now and over 30 troops are useless to me.

And?

The map says they can only bombard, that's just a tactical error by advancing all your troops.

And I like changing the Knights to 3's. 2 would make them too powerful IMO, but 3 would be a very ideal balance.

Look...what i figured is that even though they could only bombard, i could fort out of it...in feudal war the castles can bombard but they can fort out...i just figured if i put my archers on i could fort off...

The reason for the inconsistancy is that in Feudal the castles can assault out to adjacent territories. For the archers (and in different ways the catapults) on this map, they are stuck in that they can only assault other archers. So while you can fort to any other connected archer, you are trapped in a loop that only allows you to fort onto archers and use those troops for bombarding.

Depending ont he situtation in the game you're in, I would suggest either going on a mad bombarding spree with the troops to knock down your opponents reinforcements or use those troops to take a few archers so that you're at least getting extra troops that you can use later on.

[MrBenn]

The archers and catapaults are much like the artillery on the Waterloo map...

[chipv]

Ok after much discussion this is a summary of the last set of changes to the map (won't happen before Monday)

1. Players start with nobles only (3 armies).
2. All Castles Neutral 3.
3. 2 player games (1v1) start with 2 castles not 4.
4. K Knights reduced from 4 neutral to 3.
5. V6 Village will be moved to E2 to provide more protection.

The starting positions change will slow the game down and prevent quick turnover of castles.
K Knights aim to bring both those knights and the Duke more into play.
The village near castle E is to provide a bit more protection.
Also manual settings will now be active.

[ender516]

I don't see how you plan to implement point 3. Either you have two starting positions including two castles each, or four starting positions with one castle each, and all castles as (underlying) neutrals, so that they do not go into the mix for distribution. How does anyone get a castle to start in a game with more than four players?

[Kabanellas]

3. 2 player games (1v1) start with 2 castles not 4.

What chip means is that on 1v1, players will start with only 2 Nobles each (those will be able to assault directly their respective 2 castles)

All castles will start neutral

[ender516]

Castles or nobles, as far as the XML goes, each one is a <territory> which can appear in a <position>. The problem is the same.

[chipv]

Castles or nobles, as far as the XML goes, each one is a <territory> which can appear in a <position>. The problem is the same.

I would like to keep the thread for gameplay feedback and gameplay change feedback rather than a trivial conversation about how to
code XML that could have been done elsewhere.

Zero start positions will be used, nobles would be the only non-neutral territories, I thought this was obvious from points 1,2,3.

If you still need further explanation, I can do that by PM, I am waiting to hear feedback on the gameplay changes now.

[Kabanellas]

updated image files:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[Pirlo]

this map is amazing... thanks to all persons who contribute to making it available...

only problem is the ground color... it's a bit dark... i have to focus when looking... apart from this, it's really awesome

Andrea the Charmer

[chipv]

Thanks Pirlo and everyone with the nice comments, the next changes will make it both fairer and more interesting.

Latest (and hopefully last) changes for upload

Large Img: http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af10 ... a5_img.png
Small Img: http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af10 ... ll_img.png
XML : http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/5/8/1 ... _Court.xml


Kab, please update head post if not already done so, thanks.

[Kabanellas]

it was updated already

[chipv]

LIVE CHANGES PLEASE READ

Changes that will not affect current active games but will affect all new games made:

Start of Game:

1. All Castles Start as 3 Neutral
2. Players only start with nobles (neutral 3)
3. In 1v1 (2 Player) you only get 2 Castles
4. K Knights start as 3 neutrals

Changes that will impact active games:

Basically the new map images are correct, the new XML matches it:

E2 is now E2 Village
V6 Village is now N54.
All N territories and villages above these numbers have been renumbered accordingly.

Corrections to borders:

K5 can attack D5 Archer
K7 can attack S5 Archer
S4 can bombard K6