Who bankrupted Ireland?

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Pedronicus
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Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Pedronicus »

Now across Europe the great blame game will rumble back into play. Our banks, your banks, their banks, or is it your feckless householders or ours, certainly can't be theirs, they're still doing well in Germany. Expect lots more national stereotypes to be wheeled out for ritual defamation.

So let's ask who it was took a dump in Ireland?

First, the suspects.

Ireland has three big insolvent banks and several other smaller, equally insolvent financial institutions we won't bother to mention by name.

Ireland also has a large number of subsidiaries of European, British and American Banks.These subsidiaries are often registered as Irish and therefore on Ireland's tab not the nation of the parent bank. This often gets forgotten in the excitement. But it is KEY.

Ireland also houses a very large chunk of the world's Special Investment Vehicles (SIV's) which are the shell companies which house trillions and trillions of dollars and Euros and pounds worth of Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs). These are what Warren Buffett described as "weapons of financial mass destruction'" And they are in their own way as hard to find and disarm as the ones we had a fraudulent war over. Anyway I digress.

These CDOs, in turn, house an equal or greater nominal value of Credit Default Swaps (CDS) written upon the CDOs. I can't tell you the figures because only the Irish Stock exchange has the otherwise completely confidential paper work and I have serious doubts (from what I have been told in the last week by an insider with first hand knowledge) that the Irish regulator and stock exchange have much of a clue themselves.

So, to the crime.

Some of this will, for legal reasons have to be done in generalized terms with names left out to protect the Innocent - me. But to start with let's be reasonably specific. Germany was and is very very angry with Ireland for ruining its banks. That is what a German banker told me this week. She spoke on the guarantee of anonymity as she would suffer all sorts of legal problems if she was identified. I am sorry that this leaves you just having to trust that I'm not just making this up, but I hope many of you know me well enough to go with it.

In fact it was rumoured in German banks that at the time of the collapse of Hypo Real Estate, an angry call was made from the German Premier to the Irish, to complain, to which the answer was ... well it was short. Now this is nothing but a rumour. But it was a rumour in Germany which indicates that some in Germany were and perhaps still are very angry and blame Ireland.

So are they right in their blame?

The same banker told me this. She was aware of instances, and so was everyone else, of banks, German banks, who used to fly their people from Germany to Ireland in order to do deals that were not allowed in Germany.

German banks set up subsidiaries in Ireland. These subsidiaries were often registered as completely Irish companies. Back in Germany the German regulator (BaFin) had strict and enforced rules. Very good rules for the most part. Far, far better than Britain or Ireland. But these good rules, properly enforced meant German banks could not do many of the most lucrative and in hind sight reckless kinds of deals.

So the German banks would do the figures and work it all out in Frankfurt, then send a banker over to Ireland, get them to sit at 'their' desk in Ireland, in the Irish bank, and do the deal there. The legal registration of the deal and the 'oversight' were all Irish. This is known in the financial world as jurisdictional arbitrage. You and I would call it cheating if we were feeling charitable and lying if we weren't.

The Banker flies back to Germany, where the German bank hasn't done any deal, and therefore has done nothing wrong. The deal was properly overseen and approved by the appropriate Irish financial authorities and the profits would be banked at a very happy Irish bank. If any management of the 'deal' was required an Irish company would be hired, there are many, and an Irish manager often living not far from Cork, would 'manage' the money in and out. I have spoken to such people. Usually I can hear the sweat coming off them as they ask how I got their number and where did I get my information. To which I would reply that the Internet is a very large place and never, never forgets.

Now my question to you is this. If it's a German bank and a German banker doing the deal is it Germany who made the mess? Or, equally justified, if the deal was actually done in Ireland in an Irish company allowed and no doubt welcomed by Ireland's financial world, and overseen by Ireland's wonderful regulators, is it Ireland who made the mess?

Should Germany, have pulled the plug on this racket? Should Ireland? Whose losses when they finally came, are they?

If the bank is registered in Ireland as an Irish bank/business, then the loss is on Ireland's tab. Depfa was an Irish bank. Just months before its collapse in 2007 it was bought by Hypo, a German bank. Had that not happened the €180 billion euro loss at Hypo Real Estate would have been Ireland's loss, dwarfing all other losses. Why was Hypo Real Estate bought by Germany at that moment?

I can't say for sure. But think about this. Sachsen Landesbank collapsed due to around $30-40 billion in bad sub prime loans its Irish subsidiary called Ormond Quay had made in the U.S. OrmondOrmond's collapse caused the immediate collapse of one of Germany's Landesbanks. Which suddenly sent ripples of fear through all the other Landesbanks as the world woke up to the rampant idiocy that the Landesbanks had been getting up to ...in Ireland.

Germany had to step in and bail Sachsen out. Now lets think about Depfa. Depfa started life as a German bank. It became listed in London and then in 2002 moved to and registered itself in Ireland in the newly set up IFSC (Irish Financial Services Centre) This was like a legal gated community or financial maquiladora. The IFSC was in many ways supposed to be the regulator of what went on in its grounds. I leave you to decide how well it must have done.

By the way the IFSC was created by Dermot Desmond with the help of Charles Haughey.

So Depfa is now an Irish registered bank. But it has very close ties to Germany and many German banks and landesbanks. If ever Depfa went down it would certainly have plunged a vast swathe of German banks and landesbanks into a storm of insolvency, that would have dwarfed the fall out from SachsenLB. . Depfa must not be allowed to go down.

So when in 2007 Depfa was suddenly bought by Hypo Real Estate was it because news of financial problems hadn't reached Germany and they bought it because they thought it was a great deal and were cheated by those crafty Irish? OR might Germany have known that a massive crisis was ticking away in Depfa and could see the clock was running down close to zero hour, and realized that if left in Ireland it would not, could not be rescued by Ireland and so would be left to start a chain reaction that would move straight to Germany? If they thought the latter, do you think it likely that Germany would have just said "Oh Scheisse" and sat waiting for Armageddon, or do you think they would have taken emergency action to bring Depfa under German ownership and jurisdiction where German pockets were deep enough to bail it out and thereby save the rest of Germany's banking system?

You decide.

So let's return to our question? Whose fault? Would Germany be right to be bitter about Depfa/Hypo and others? Or does the blame lie with the Germany banks and Bankers who flew to Ireland to do their mess? Is it Ireland's banks mess or Germany's? I don't think we can disentangle the blame.. maybe when the Irish Banks' books are finally opened we could. But I bet you no one outside the top bankers and politicians, the people who oversaw the creation of the bomb in the first place, will ever be told what's really in there.

I can't say and neither can you, if the losses are Irish or German. But we can say, the losses never were, and should not ever be, yours and mine. We, the people, who were told nothing, were not asked nor consulted, whose laws were either ignored, set aside or re-written, we should not be expected to pay for those losses now.

They are bankers losses. It is NOT a question of Irish or German. It is question of wealthy bankers from all countries not just Germany (almost every nation, Germany, America, Russia, France Britain, we did dirty work in Ireland) and their corrupt Irish helpers versus the people. It is not a question of should the Irish people or the German people pay. Neither people should. It should be the bankers who made the losses who should take them.

DO NOT allow the bankers to set us against each other as a cover for their crime and guilt.
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Post by 2dimes »

I don't know what but something happened to the potatoes. Next.


Nice I didn't notice the missing word until timminz came through so now it says I edited.

The place is supposed to be quite beautiful in places and I can't blame them for drinking most of my favorite beers are Irish brewed. I would rather be broke there than most of 'merica I think.
Last edited by 2dimes on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Timminz »

Pedronicus wrote:DO NOT allow the bankers to set us against each other as a cover for their crime and guilt.


...but how do we hold them accountable?
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Fruitcake »

Stunning post Pedro.

Coincides with my thoughts exactly.

As for the bankers? Well, until the ruling classes truly learn their lessons and manage to turn over this awful oligopoly and resolve to restrain these people we are stuck with them unfortunately.
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by BigBallinStalin »

The fault lies in German banks who set up subsidiaries in Ireland with the intention of avoiding certain rules and regulations back in Der Vaderland.

It's also a question of ethics. What the German banks did was unethical and led to a large degree of the problems in Ireland.

Ireland is partly to blame for their lack of stricter rules and regulations concerning CDS and what not.
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Post by 2dimes »

Fruit, don't you think this is intentional to bring in a single world currancy? You have to break all the other currencies or patriotic people like Americans would have nothing to do with the new one.

That and it's a good way to steal a ton of equity built up by the peasant class in imaginary stocks and currency funds.
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Re:

Post by Fruitcake »

2dimes wrote:Fruit, don't you think this is intentional to bring in a single world currancy? You have to break all the other currencies or patriotic people like Americans would have nothing to do with the new one.

That and it's a good way to steal a ton of equity built up by the peasant class in imaginary stocks and currency funds.


In all honesty, there is enough material coming out of this whole debacle to obtain a Doctorate.

Subjectively, and I do mean subjectively as I have to admit freely to being one of those pariahs of the so called ruling classes of today, in that I made moolah all the way through the bull market, watched as the intelligence bar was lowered inexorably in terms of who was in control of the fiscal system, cashed in my chips, sat back, then stormed in again, shorting everything I could as the whole thing went in reverse. So I now find it difficult to talk objectively in the true sense of the word.

I used to write an acerbic financial weekly article that quite a few on cc used to receive, along with, ultimately, a couple of thousand others. I forecast a second wave of financial crises 18 months ago, just as the trumpets started blowing the message that all was good and all was well. You only have to look at my writing in the "Greece to collapse Monday afternoon" thread to see I wasn't having any of this stuff and nonsense.

Please excuse me if these next thoughts read like a conscious stream of thought.

This isn't rocket science, and I shake my head in despair at those who control the finances of so many millions of people. However, it could be said that is was those very millions of people who pushed and pushed to gain more profit, thereby increasing their own standards of living, who must shoulder some of the blame. I have always believed in the saying 'caveat emptor' in all things. We may have created a system where so many (financial) products seemed bound tight legally, but this only served to make people lazy. they thought, incorrectly, that the good times would roll on and on. They wanted bigger and bigger dividends (unearned income after all) and lost sight of the value of really pondering what they were doing, to whom they were giving their money and what was going to happen to that money. You may say "Well Fc, who the hell can they trust?" my response would simply be "yourself and no other". In this I am simply trying to put forward the hypothesis that as a society (and in this I mean nearly all developed societies globally) we have lost sight of the basics. When did the average person last sit down and really study what was happening to their moolah and ask if they were comfortable with this? When did the average person last sit down and say to themselves, "I don't know how this is happening, I am putting my life future in the hands of people I know nothing about so I shall eschew this opportunity and invest in my local economy directly instead, the returns may be lower, but I have some control over what is happening"

In short, what I am saying is this. Maybe it is time we all reflected on where we have got to on this ghastly journey. Maybe it is time we all re-evaluated how we conduct our lives, who we really trust and what effort we should be putting into protecting ourselves and those around us. Until we do, Politicians will inexorably gather more and more power to themselves and strip the individual of this, for this is the way of Politicians. These Politicians are happy to watch the common citizen pay for their errors and the errors of those who provide them with the most support. We need to change the way we view what is important in our lives, accept that there are things we cannot achieve or have and then perhaps we can demand that all those responsible are made accountable once and for all.

Oh, and I dispute utterly the argument that this would bring about a complete collapse in the world economy and throw us all back to the dark ages. Rubbish! This would purely purge the system, cause a huge self correction admittedly, push responsibility back into the hands of the people (who, if the system is to be believed are quite educated enough to make rational decisions, especially at a local and personal level) and perhaps, just perhaps cause a seismic change in the way things are run. Whatever it did, it surely cannot be worse than the complete balls up these present set of self opinionated, smug, self satisfied, second rate twats have done!

My rant over.
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Post by 2dimes »

Ok, but what I was suggesting is that at the very top there's people that are operating with intent to have these things occur. Of course it's never going to put us back to the dark ages. I would suggest it may actually in some ways coincide with moving forward as in giant reductions in taxes once the new system is in place. With the removal of the underground economy that needs physical currency to operate and more streamlined govenments tax could be lowered quite a bit.
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Phatscotty »

Is this my cue to start a "who cares about crumbling European countries" thread?

The Irish agreed to a bunch of shitty, shitty deals, with shitty, shitty people.

Probably something to do with yearning to live beyond their means
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Re: Re:

Post by Phatscotty »

Fruitcake wrote:
2dimes wrote:Fruit, don't you think this is intentional to bring in a single world currancy? You have to break all the other currencies or patriotic people like Americans would have nothing to do with the new one.

That and it's a good way to steal a ton of equity built up by the peasant class in imaginary stocks and currency funds.


In all honesty, there is enough material coming out of this whole debacle to obtain a Doctorate.

Subjectively, and I do mean subjectively as I have to admit freely to being one of those pariahs of the so called ruling classes of today, in that I made moolah all the way through the bull market, watched as the intelligence bar was lowered inexorably in terms of who was in control of the fiscal system, cashed in my chips, sat back, then stormed in again, shorting everything I could as the whole thing went in reverse. So I now find it difficult to talk objectively in the true sense of the word.

I used to write an acerbic financial weekly article that quite a few on cc used to receive, along with, ultimately, a couple of thousand others. I forecast a second wave of financial crises 18 months ago, just as the trumpets started blowing the message that all was good and all was well. You only have to look at my writing in the "Greece to collapse Monday afternoon" thread to see I wasn't having any of this stuff and nonsense.

Please excuse me if these next thoughts read like a conscious stream of thought.

This isn't rocket science, and I shake my head in despair at those who control the finances of so many millions of people. However, it could be said that is was those very millions of people who pushed and pushed to gain more profit, thereby increasing their own standards of living, who must shoulder some of the blame. I have always believed in the saying 'caveat emptor' in all things. We may have created a system where so many (financial) products seemed bound tight legally, but this only served to make people lazy. they thought, incorrectly, that the good times would roll on and on. They wanted bigger and bigger dividends (unearned income after all) and lost sight of the value of really pondering what they were doing, to whom they were giving their money and what was going to happen to that money. You may say "Well Fc, who the hell can they trust?" my response would simply be "yourself and no other". In this I am simply trying to put forward the hypothesis that as a society (and in this I mean nearly all developed societies globally) we have lost sight of the basics. When did the average person last sit down and really study what was happening to their moolah and ask if they were comfortable with this? When did the average person last sit down and say to themselves, "I don't know how this is happening, I am putting my life future in the hands of people I know nothing about so I shall eschew this opportunity and invest in my local economy directly instead, the returns may be lower, but I have some control over what is happening"

In short, what I am saying is this. Maybe it is time we all reflected on where we have got to on this ghastly journey. Maybe it is time we all re-evaluated how we conduct our lives, who we really trust and what effort we should be putting into protecting ourselves and those around us. Until we do, Politicians will inexorably gather more and more power to themselves and strip the individual of this, for this is the way of Politicians. These Politicians are happy to watch the common citizen pay for their errors and the errors of those who provide them with the most support. We need to change the way we view what is important in our lives, accept that there are things we cannot achieve or have and then perhaps we can demand that all those responsible are made accountable once and for all.

Oh, and I dispute utterly the argument that this would bring about a complete collapse in the world economy and throw us all back to the dark ages. Rubbish! This would purely purge the system, cause a huge self correction admittedly, push responsibility back into the hands of the people (who, if the system is to be believed are quite educated enough to make rational decisions, especially at a local and personal level) and perhaps, just perhaps cause a seismic change in the way things are run. Whatever it did, it surely cannot be worse than the complete balls up these present set of self opinionated, smug, self satisfied, second rate twats have done!

My rant over.


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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Phatscotty »

Pedronicus wrote:Now across Europe the great blame game will rumble back into play. Our banks, your banks, their banks, or is it your feckless householders or ours, certainly can't be theirs, they're still doing well in Germany. Expect lots more national stereotypes to be wheeled out for ritual defamation.

So let's ask who it was took a dump in Ireland?

First, the suspects.

Ireland has three big insolvent banks and several other smaller, equally insolvent financial institutions we won't bother to mention by name.

Ireland also has a large number of subsidiaries of European, British and American Banks.These subsidiaries are often registered as Irish and therefore on Ireland's tab not the nation of the parent bank. This often gets forgotten in the excitement. But it is KEY.

Ireland also houses a very large chunk of the world's Special Investment Vehicles (SIV's) which are the shell companies which house trillions and trillions of dollars and Euros and pounds worth of Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs). These are what Warren Buffett described as "weapons of financial mass destruction'" And they are in their own way as hard to find and disarm as the ones we had a fraudulent war over. Anyway I digress.

These CDOs, in turn, house an equal or greater nominal value of Credit Default Swaps (CDS) written upon the CDOs. I can't tell you the figures because only the Irish Stock exchange has the otherwise completely confidential paper work and I have serious doubts (from what I have been told in the last week by an insider with first hand knowledge) that the Irish regulator and stock exchange have much of a clue themselves.

So, to the crime.

Some of this will, for legal reasons have to be done in generalized terms with names left out to protect the Innocent - me. But to start with let's be reasonably specific. Germany was and is very very angry with Ireland for ruining its banks. That is what a German banker told me this week. She spoke on the guarantee of anonymity as she would suffer all sorts of legal problems if she was identified. I am sorry that this leaves you just having to trust that I'm not just making this up, but I hope many of you know me well enough to go with it.

In fact it was rumoured in German banks that at the time of the collapse of Hypo Real Estate, an angry call was made from the German Premier to the Irish, to complain, to which the answer was ... well it was short. Now this is nothing but a rumour. But it was a rumour in Germany which indicates that some in Germany were and perhaps still are very angry and blame Ireland.

So are they right in their blame?

The same banker told me this. She was aware of instances, and so was everyone else, of banks, German banks, who used to fly their people from Germany to Ireland in order to do deals that were not allowed in Germany.

German banks set up subsidiaries in Ireland. These subsidiaries were often registered as completely Irish companies. Back in Germany the German regulator (BaFin) had strict and enforced rules. Very good rules for the most part. Far, far better than Britain or Ireland. But these good rules, properly enforced meant German banks could not do many of the most lucrative and in hind sight reckless kinds of deals.

So the German banks would do the figures and work it all out in Frankfurt, then send a banker over to Ireland, get them to sit at 'their' desk in Ireland, in the Irish bank, and do the deal there. The legal registration of the deal and the 'oversight' were all Irish. This is known in the financial world as jurisdictional arbitrage. You and I would call it cheating if we were feeling charitable and lying if we weren't.

The Banker flies back to Germany, where the German bank hasn't done any deal, and therefore has done nothing wrong. The deal was properly overseen and approved by the appropriate Irish financial authorities and the profits would be banked at a very happy Irish bank. If any management of the 'deal' was required an Irish company would be hired, there are many, and an Irish manager often living not far from Cork, would 'manage' the money in and out. I have spoken to such people. Usually I can hear the sweat coming off them as they ask how I got their number and where did I get my information. To which I would reply that the Internet is a very large place and never, never forgets.

Now my question to you is this. If it's a German bank and a German banker doing the deal is it Germany who made the mess? Or, equally justified, if the deal was actually done in Ireland in an Irish company allowed and no doubt welcomed by Ireland's financial world, and overseen by Ireland's wonderful regulators, is it Ireland who made the mess?

Should Germany, have pulled the plug on this racket? Should Ireland? Whose losses when they finally came, are they?

If the bank is registered in Ireland as an Irish bank/business, then the loss is on Ireland's tab. Depfa was an Irish bank. Just months before its collapse in 2007 it was bought by Hypo, a German bank. Had that not happened the €180 billion euro loss at Hypo Real Estate would have been Ireland's loss, dwarfing all other losses. Why was Hypo Real Estate bought by Germany at that moment?

I can't say for sure. But think about this. Sachsen Landesbank collapsed due to around $30-40 billion in bad sub prime loans its Irish subsidiary called Ormond Quay had made in the U.S. OrmondOrmond's collapse caused the immediate collapse of one of Germany's Landesbanks. Which suddenly sent ripples of fear through all the other Landesbanks as the world woke up to the rampant idiocy that the Landesbanks had been getting up to ...in Ireland.

Germany had to step in and bail Sachsen out. Now lets think about Depfa. Depfa started life as a German bank. It became listed in London and then in 2002 moved to and registered itself in Ireland in the newly set up IFSC (Irish Financial Services Centre) This was like a legal gated community or financial maquiladora. The IFSC was in many ways supposed to be the regulator of what went on in its grounds. I leave you to decide how well it must have done.

By the way the IFSC was created by Dermot Desmond with the help of Charles Haughey.

So Depfa is now an Irish registered bank. But it has very close ties to Germany and many German banks and landesbanks. If ever Depfa went down it would certainly have plunged a vast swathe of German banks and landesbanks into a storm of insolvency, that would have dwarfed the fall out from SachsenLB. . Depfa must not be allowed to go down.

So when in 2007 Depfa was suddenly bought by Hypo Real Estate was it because news of financial problems hadn't reached Germany and they bought it because they thought it was a great deal and were cheated by those crafty Irish? OR might Germany have known that a massive crisis was ticking away in Depfa and could see the clock was running down close to zero hour, and realized that if left in Ireland it would not, could not be rescued by Ireland and so would be left to start a chain reaction that would move straight to Germany? If they thought the latter, do you think it likely that Germany would have just said "Oh Scheisse" and sat waiting for Armageddon, or do you think they would have taken emergency action to bring Depfa under German ownership and jurisdiction where German pockets were deep enough to bail it out and thereby save the rest of Germany's banking system?

You decide.

So let's return to our question? Whose fault? Would Germany be right to be bitter about Depfa/Hypo and others? Or does the blame lie with the Germany banks and Bankers who flew to Ireland to do their mess? Is it Ireland's banks mess or Germany's? I don't think we can disentangle the blame.. maybe when the Irish Banks' books are finally opened we could. But I bet you no one outside the top bankers and politicians, the people who oversaw the creation of the bomb in the first place, will ever be told what's really in there.

I can't say and neither can you, if the losses are Irish or German. But we can say, the losses never were, and should not ever be, yours and mine. We, the people, who were told nothing, were not asked nor consulted, whose laws were either ignored, set aside or re-written, we should not be expected to pay for those losses now.

They are bankers losses. It is NOT a question of Irish or German. It is question of wealthy bankers from all countries not just Germany (almost every nation, Germany, America, Russia, France Britain, we did dirty work in Ireland) and their corrupt Irish helpers versus the people. It is not a question of should the Irish people or the German people pay. Neither people should. It should be the bankers who made the losses who should take them.

DO NOT allow the bankers to set us against each other as a cover for their crime and guilt.


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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by ViperOverLord »

We have bigger problems. Who's going to pick-up their beer tab?

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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by BigBallinStalin »

So we got Greece down, and Ireland soon following. I think Spain, Italy, and maybe a couple of others were on the watch list. At what point will some countries scrap the Euro currency and develop their own in order to save themselves from being dragged down by the others?
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Phatscotty »

BigBallinStalin wrote:So we got Greece down, and Ireland soon following. I think Spain, Italy, and maybe a couple of others were on the watch list. At what point will some countries scrap the Euro currency and develop their own in order to save themselves from being dragged down by the others?


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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by thegreekdog »

To pick up on FC's theme, Pedro posted an excellent "youtube" explanation of the financial crisis. One of the "lessons" I picked up from the video/explanation was that when you have, let's say, five different investment bankers/portfolio managers/guys with suits and one of them promises an increase in dividend of 1% over the other four, the other four are going to say, "Oh yeah, we'll get you 2%" and so forth. So, I agree with FC (and Pedro and others) that the economic crisis was partially our own doing. I also agree with PhatScotty (and others) that increased government control over the financial system may be a "too little too late" sort of thing and could have disastorous effects in the future.

Caveat - I'm not an economist. My money is safely tucked away in a savings account because I'm risk averse. I'm a tax guy, which means I know how to read a financial statement, but don't know crap about investing. So, my advice should be ignored. There are more knowledgeable people than me.
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Fruitcake »

So Ireland now finally bows to the Euroland. Another domino falls in the line which extends back to the gamble of launching a premature and dysfunctional currency without a central treasury, or debt union, or economic government, to back it up , and before the economies, legal systems, wage bargaining practices, productivity growth, and interest rate sensitivity, of North and South Europe had come anywhere near sustainable convergence.

Jacques Delors and the cabal of EMU founders were told by Commission economists in the early 1990s that this reckless adventure could not work as constructed, and would lead to a traumatic crisis. They shrugged off the warnings....no surprise there then in their inexorable march towards the Monnet dream of a fully-fledged EU state.

I remember some years ago watching with incredulity as 'investors' piled into Greek, Portuguese, and Irish debt at 25-35 basis points over Bunds (German Bonds), with Spanish bonds trading at a spread of just 4 basis points! Now before I move on, let's just revisit those countries and the spreads, as at close of London today the numbers look something like this: Bunds are trading at 2.51%, Greek Bonds at 11.39% (nearly 900 basis points adrift), Portugal at 6.74% (420+ basis points adrift), Irish Bonds now at 8.14% (560+ basis points adrift) and Spanish Bonds at 4.53% (some 200 points adrift)....all a long long way from those days when suckers (for that is truly what these investors had to be) were drawn into the ever decreasing circle.

So where does that leave the Grand Plan of total European integration? Well hopefully, from a local point of view, it will cause UK Politicians to ignore Obama's words earlier this year when he openly, and rashly, stated that he thought the UK should seek entry to the Euro as a matter of urgency (to which many of us scoffed quietly into our wine glasses).

And the European dream? Well, Greece is now under an EU protectorate, or the “Memorandum” as they call it. This has prompted pin-prick terrorist attacks of a financial nature against anybody associated with EU rule (well we have to see how strong they really are don't we). Ireland and Portugal are further behind on this road to serfdom, but they are already facing policy dictates from Brussels, but will soon be under formal protectorates as well in any case. Spain has more or less been forced to cut public wages by 5pc to comply with EU demands made in May. All are having to knuckle down to Europe’s agenda of austerity, without the offsetting relief of devaluation and looser monetary policy, due to the centrist Policies introduced by the Euroland Politicians...do you see now how the snake's head is starting to eat its own tail? This can only end in real tears being shed.

My forecast...as this crisis continues well into next year, and it will, have no doubt. With unemployment stuck high on the scale, money ever tightening and Governments now under fierce rule from Centrist Politicians in Brussels it will start to dawn on the populations of various Sovereign States who actually has ownership of these policies and the same people will, at last, begin to wonder if there is full democratic consent or if they are under the rule of foreign over-lords. Then watch the attacks on the Euro pick up pace as main stream Banks realise they are losing serious moolah by not joining the party....
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by alex951 »

the same ppl that raped Africa of its resources
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by saxitoxin »

Fruitcake, if you offered a pay-for-subscription newsletter I would most likely subscribe.

There are two so-called "conspiracy theories" that have floated in the ether for the last 20 years. Do you put any credence in either?

    - The KGB defector Anatoliy Golitsyn wrote, in his 1984 book New Lies for Old, that Moscow was aware the nuclear stalemate was insurmountable and that they would, soon, orchestrate a planned collapse of the eastern block that would occur, inexplicably, almost overnight. This might be initiated by the removal of the so-called "Berlin Wall." It would be followed by the introduction of a loose EU confederation that would, under the weight of a feigned financial implosion, also collapse, thereby excusing the need for a fully federal, single-minded Europe whose bureaucracy would be controlled, at the highest-levels, by Moscow's (sometimes unwitting) stay-behind operators.

    - On the flip-side, almost immediately after the downfall of the eastern governments in '89 and '90, representatives of the U.S. Democrat and Republican parties - funded by the U.S. State Department - were on the ground in Poland, Ceska, Hungary, Latvia, et. al. with briefcases full of cash funding nascent politicos from both left and right parties, most of whom now hold premierships and presidencies in the countries of eastern Europe. While the EU is supposed to be the great liberator of Europe from the US, as Fruitcake points out, the US has been the biggest cheerleader - bar none - for EU expansion. If one tries and tries, but is unable, to exert control over the French national assembly or the British house of commons, an alternative plan might be to empower a legal framework by which control can be exerted and then stack the deck with friendly votes ... Ceska, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, etc.
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Wouldn't some EU countries be more encouraged to break away from the EU, or at least the Euro, in order to save themselves from further devaluation brought about by the failing and soon to be failing EU members?
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Fruitcake »

saxitoxin wrote:Fruitcake. There are two so-called "conspiracy theories" that have floated in the ether for the last 20 years. Do you put any credence in either?

    - The KGB defector Anatoliy Golitsyn wrote, in his 1984 book New Lies for Old, that Moscow was aware the nuclear stalemate was insurmountable and that they would, soon, orchestrate a planned collapse of the eastern block that would occur, inexplicably, almost overnight. This might be initiated by the removal of the so-called "Berlin Wall." It would be followed by the introduction of a loose EU confederation that would, under the weight of a feigned financial implosion, also collapse, thereby excusing the need for a fully federal, single-minded Europe whose bureaucracy would be controlled, at the highest-levels, by Moscow's (sometimes unwitting) stay-behind operators.

    - On the flip-side, almost immediately after the downfall of the eastern governments in '89 and '90, representatives of the U.S. Democrat and Republican parties - funded by the U.S. State Department - were on the ground in Poland, Ceska, Hungary, Latvia, et. al. with briefcases full of cash funding nascent politicos from both left and right parties, most of whom now hold premierships and presidencies in the countries of eastern Europe. While the EU is supposed to be the great liberator of Europe from the US, as Fruitcake points out, the US has been the biggest cheerleader - bar none - for EU expansion. If one tries and tries, but is unable, to exert control over the French national assembly or the British house of commons, an alternative plan might be to empower a legal framework by which control can be exerted and then stack the deck with friendly votes ... Ceska, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, etc.


The second ‘theory’ really grabbed my attention. Before I respond to it I should say that the first has been pretty much discounted previously. The clothes don’t quite fit the body if you get my drift. The circumstances previous to the breakdown of the communist bloc were not conducive to the later ‘plans’, if there were ever any. Furthermore, many European Governments have proven somewhat intractable and do not seem to want to bend too readily to the rule from Brussels. One must always remember that the core idea of a United Europe sprang from France’s desperate need to somehow yoke Germany to a peaceful future after Franc had seen itself torn apart after two World Wars with all the horrors and the costs attached. The USSR (as was) may have had ideas of cashing in on the situation, but a single generation has undone this.

Returning to the second ‘theory’, it has long been recognised that the USA has wanted to see a united Europe. This is quite understandable as it is the USA that has effectively funded defence in Western Europe for the last half a century through its dominance of NATO whilst we, over here, have seen living standards rise so dramatically. After all, take a look at defence spending by European Govts. as a percentage of GDP and it has successively fallen with each decade while the Americans have filled that particular gap. However, this has brought its own costs. It is also pretty common knowledge that the USA does not see Europe as a ‘full on’ Ally when it feels the need, that is except for the UK, but that is a different story all together (as the UK keeps rushing down the road of dismantling its armed forces to such an extent that we are pretty much a minnow in terms of armed forces worldwide now….unfortunately).. You are correct that State Department focus has been on this loose plan of stacking the deck with friendlies to ensure the empowered EU looks west rather than inwards, however, I would put forward the hypothesis that this is so a fat central block of bound Sovereign States now sits between Russia and the Channel coast of France with the ‘unsinkable Aircraft Carrier’ as the UK was once referred to by the USA sitting just of that coast. This means, in turn, that the USA can unwind somewhat from its expensive contribution to Europe’s defence as other more topical emerging enemies of the USA have shown their hands.

Relating this to the subject matter of this thread is tenuous at best but in a way is related. It has suited the US and dare I say Anglo Saxon banking community at large, to see wealth generation build so rapidly, ‘trade is good for peace’ as they used to say,( I recall a friend pointing out to me, some years ago, that no two countries that had a McDonalds had ever been to war with each other). The other side of this coin has been that by exporting the consumerism America is so famous for it seems to have forgotten what is now becoming obvious in the EU today. This is the simple fact that each Sovereign State does tend to have its own ingrained attitudes to the way its society conducts itself and the way it rules said society. As Aristotle said, "Different men seek after happiness in different ways and by different means, and so make for themselves different modes of life and forms of government." One only has to look at the huge differences now manifesting themselves once more between the northern European Nations and the Southern. On the one hand fiscal prudence has gone hand in hand with low inflation, strong currency and stable rule, whilst the further south one goes, the fiscal prudence goes out of the window, but this has been readily offset by an inflationary state of affairs with a steadily reducing value of currency,

In short,, and this is my opinion only, Governments, large and small, will always think they can see into the future, but they nearly always cock it up when they begin to believe they really are clever. Furthermore, the Genie of free enterprise and market forces was let out of the bottle some time ago and it is of little use for any Governments to think they can put it back….but of course, in their infinite stupidity there will always be those who think they can.

Regarding the post by BBS:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Wouldn't some EU countries be more encouraged to break away from the EU, or at least the Euro, in order to save themselves from further devaluation brought about by the failing and soon to be failing EU members?


All I can say is to repeat the last sentence above and to add the following. there are two options, neither very palatable. The European Central Bank can indulge in an orgy of QE (Quantitative easing, more commonly known as printing money), flood the bond markets with €2 trillion+, and tank the euro on the world’s markets.

If the Germans refuse to accept this, which they likely would, they would then abandon the whole EMU project and put the shutters up. Existing euro debt contracts would be upheld. Germany would revalue so holders of Bunds would enjoy a windfall gain. Those countries in most need will then exit the EMU, allow their currencies to float downwards, thus reducing their debts and restoring equilibrium.

In short, (if I can be excused the pun), I think the Euro has a limited lifespan as a dominant currency in any way for the foreseeable future…at least until I am dead and gone and quite frankly I don’t really give a shit what happens then.
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Post by 2dimes »

I don't have the energy to read this so I'll refrain from commenting.


I would like to know if we have anyone in Ireland reading this that can comment on what's happening from their perspective and the general mood there?
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Re: Who bankrupted Ireland?

Post by Pedronicus »

Front page from today's Irish Daily Star newspaper

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Post by 2dimes »

Nice!

I'd like to point out they appear to call it "soccer" there.
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Post by Lord and Master »

2dimes wrote:Nice!

I'd like to point out they appear to call it "soccer" there.

They do, 'cos they have Gaelic Football which mostly gets called football.
I think it's only the US, Australia and Ireland that call it soccer, precisely because those 3 are the only ones that have their own cheating hand-balling versions!

I'm in Ireland and the mood seems to be along the lines of "let's have a general election and hopefully cause the complete destruction of Fianna Fail (current govt) as a political party". Strong sentiments, understandably so too...

Many people actually feel relieved that the IMF have stepped in to dictate terms and solutions, as at least now it seems that the people in charge actually know what they're doing!
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Post by 2dimes »

You left Canuckistan and the CFL off the list of places where they build collapsing soccer domes.

So for the most part it's fairly business as usual there on the emerald ilse, while the gobshites carry on with the financial problems?

I'm mildly apprehensive yet quite fascinated about these things.

The worst part in my opinion and I suppose it must have been somewhat the same in New York during the '20s. Most of the population relies on the use of currency to buy food. Far too many of us don't have gardens at all let alone one we could live off of.
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