Peloponnesian War [Done]

[Blitzaholic]

Qwert, this map is great, it really is. What exactly are some of the suggestions the blue men are asking you to change that you refuse? Perhaps we can compromise. Sorry, I have been out of the loop on this, but something has to give here, and my guess is the cartographers are not going to make an exception for you, if so, then they would have to for everyone. So, let me hear what you are challenged with here Qwert, and maybe I could offer some input so we could move forward possibly. Many on CC want this out of Beta, but, it sounds like you need to make a few little changes, so, what are they exactly?

[oaktown]

Idiots like Oaktown, gimil, and MrBenn have effectively ruined our chances of seeing this map sent out of BETA because they're too busy whining rather than clarifying to a person whose first language is clearly not English...

Other than feeling ashamed for yourselves, you three I singled out should also resign.

Ha! Two of us already did resign, over a year ago!

For the record, I'd personally love to see this map pulled out of BETA. Just as I was thrilled to see that Das Schlos was finally re-released with gameplay fixes, I feel that this map remains a black mark on what I think was a generally productive run as a foundry moderator.

The conundrum that I faced at the time was this: do we stamp this map as is simply because time has passed, or do we hold this map to the same standards that we hold every other map on this site? CC's foundry process is an open one, which relies on community feedback and consensus to craft and perfect a map. Whether or not it's a good system, it's what we've got. When issues about a map's graphics or play are raised thoughtfully, they should be addressed.

The consensus opinion among the mods at the time was that a mapmaker should be willing to at least discuss the concerns that users have about his or map. This has not been the case here, and so foundry standards and expectations have not yet been met. Attempts were made - by me and others - to engage the mapmaker in this discussion, but the mapmaker refused on the grounds that he had done enough work already.

Of course, there are new sheriffs in town now. Gimil and I have been out of the picture for over a year, and the current team has less of a history dealing with this mapmaker. If they think that the rules that apply to CC's other mapmakers should be suspended in this case, and that the concerns raised about this map are not worth discussing, then by all means they should stamp it.

[grifftron]

Stamp it!

[natty dread]

Stamp it!

If you or anyone else want this map quenched, PM Qwert. It's totally up to him to get it quenched, however he doesn't seem to care...

[saaimen]

And if it's stamped now, this thread will keep thriving with people who have ended their turn with 8 shields and complain because they haven't won yet...

[b00060]

I love this map and agree with blitz, what are some of the issues?

[MrBenn]

From the moment this map went into Beta, the CA's have been asking qwert to make an amendment to the legend and increase the user-friendliness of the map.

This evening, that amendment has gone live, which brings the Beta period to a conclusion. This update has not been created nor sanctioned by qwert, who has fully disengaged from the foundry, and refused to respond to our simple and straightforward requests.

In fact

1. Wording of the objective - "Capture and hold all 8 Shields to win the war"

this is the only thing that actually NEEDS to be done - and is the only thing that is preventing this coming out of Beta...

There is no mapmaking medal to be awarded now, as prior to qwert's obstinance with this map, mapmakers were trusted to see their work through to completion and were commended upon the first quenching.

At any time this map was in Beta I could have pulled the map from live play, or stripped qwert of his medal. However, I firmly believe that neither course of action would have been in the best interests of the Foundry or the players of Conquer Club.

While it gives me great pleasure to release this map from the final forge, I should underline that the failure of future mapmakers to adhere to the foundry code of practice will have their work revamped (as happened to pepperonibread and the Germany map) or removed from Live Play until any issues are addressed.

--MrBenn

[danryan]

A sad end to this. The map is very good indeed and deserves to be live, so the result works at least.

[natty dread]

Good call Mrbenn. Now if Qwert objects and wants the map taken down because it was changed without his consent, it will be up to him and people can't blame the Foundry for it.

Personally, I respect Qwert for all the maps he has made, but this one map really eats from that respect: if you start something you should have the integrity to follow through and see it to the end. Getting a map to beta and then refusing to work on it is really bad form and shows a bad attitude. No doubt there are people who disagree with me but this is just how I feel.

[AndyDufresne]

Good to see a conclusion to this.


--Andy

[saaimen]

Thanks, Benn. CC needed this - both the map and your decision.

[Raskholnikov]

Now let's try finding a way not to antagonise creative and capable mapmakers like Qwertl. Unfortunately, I doubt any lessons were learnt and this will happen again. My hope is that the new Foundry recruits, Helix, natty, evil, who have an entirely different attitude towards cartographers than the old guard, will be able to slowly change things around and make this a friendly place, fun to work in.

[natty dread]

I'm not a foundry mod

[Ardan]

Ok, not sure if something is broke on this map or not. I've really enjoyed playing on it, but I 've got about 3 or 4 games going on it right now and for some reason I am not receiving bonus troops for any of the regions I take that have the two crossed swords on it. According to the legend you should be getting 2 bonus troops to place wherever you like. I have not been getting these whereas the first few times I played the map I did. Just mentioning this as I'm stumped why it suddenly wouldn't be giving the troops out.

[natty dread]

You have to hold 2 territories with the swords to get the bonus.

[Rodion]

Can you give me a link showing which neutrals have 1,2,3 and 6 armies in it?

[Rodion]

Can you give me a link showing which neutrals have 1,2,3 and 6 armies in it?

Nevermind that, I just searched for a round 1 sunny game.

[nebsmith]

I really like this map but I think there is an imbalance on it in some settings - fog with 8 players and probably fog with 7.

Starting on Persians with these settings you can take Dorian Cyclidians (swords) and have 2 or 3 neutral 6's between you and other players in that direction. A fairly well defended back door that you don't get elswhere on the map and the players on Romans and Skyros are likely going to run into each other before they can head towards you on Dorian Cyclidians.

This leaves you free to place most of your armies on Halicarnasans to break through the neutral 6 and take out the player starting on Icaria, who has to worry about 2 fronts.

If you succeed at this you are close to taking another sword on Phrygians while holding 15+ fairly safe territories, still only worrying about one front yourself. At this point you are in a pretty strong position and should be able to build for an attack through Phrygians to the next player (also having to worry about 2 fronts) while Dorian Cyclidians is still relatively safe.

[lostatlimbo]

I love this map, but it positively sucks to have Sykros be one of your two starting positions in 1v1. It is the most useless starting position by far because it is completely locked in. There's no way to grow from it. I know I will lose the game every time that I get Sykros. It really should be excluded from the starting positions - at least for 2 players.

$.02

[MPAR2]

I think that you should add Sicily because in the Pelopponesian wars the war went and in Sicily and also is there were the Athenians lost a big battle against the Spartans. After the battle with the Spartans in Sicily the Athenians were destroyed because they didnt had army and warships and the alliance that they have done with the other city-states was destroyed. So in the Pelloponesian war Sicily is very important to be added in the map because from there not the battle but the whole war was decided.The army that the Athenians send to Italy was very huge it was 5.000 infantry 100 warships and some horses this army was very huge for that time of the history (431 bC) and Athens lost almost all of that army.It was a disaster and then was that Euripidis made his theatrical play that was based on the Sicilian campaign and was telling in few words that the Athenians shouldnt have trusted the politicians who had betrayed them with words full of lies.If the Pelopponesian wars hadnt happened the world wouldnt be like it is now !

[EddieMay]

maybe at the beginning of this thread you could leave a stating position map for all the region values

[EASTOFEDEN]

how does one get to Argives? I notice no one goes towards this area.

[thenobodies80]

how does one get to Argives? I notice no one goes towards this area.

What do you mean here?

[sleepykarly]

Just a tiny, nitpicky point in an othewwise excellent map...

The terminal letter in 'Pelagos' looks more like a zeta than a sigma. Is this just my old eyes, or is it the choice of font, or is it a spelling mistake?

By-the-way, I like the phonetic rending of 'Map Inset'!

[iancanton]

sigma is written that way when it occurs at the end of a word. however, on this map, the font does make it look similar to zeta!

https://www.quinapalus.com/gr1.1.html

ian.