Flanders 1302V15[Beta] major changes! P19

[DubWarrior]

playing it right now.. instant damn classic. good work


gameplay is perfect.

Wow, we're in BETA...great news. Let's hope all things run fine. I'll fill in the form for new maps now.
Tnx all!

[thenobodies80]

Well done Dub Warrior.

[The Bison King]

Congratulations! I look forward to playing you.

[perchorin]

Been playing 1:1 speed games on this map, love it, but just had my opponent drop the +4 Henegouwen bonus and take the first turn...game over. That probably shouldn't be allowed to happen. +4 is just too large a bonus for 4 terts if you're able to get it on the drop. Otherwise, fabulous map!

[DubWarrior]

Been playing 1:1 speed games on this map, love it, but just had my opponent drop the +4 Henegouwen bonus and take the first turn...game over. That probably shouldn't be allowed to happen. +4 is just too large a bonus for 4 terts if you're able to get it on the drop. Otherwise, fabulous map!

Thanks for the reply. It was a game with only one opponent. I think that can happen if you're start positions are a bit unbalanced. It's an automatic function in the code that choses your and your opponent's start position, and add some extra neutrals. with some bad luck one can take a bonus in the first round. But I'm not a pro...

Henegouwen doesn't have a capital with a +1 auto-deploy, and it borders with 3 provinces. I think, for these reasons we decided to give it a +4. true, it only have 4 territs. What does the forum think?

another question, related to it: I checked out the running games. A lot of them are done in around 7 - 9 rounds. not all cities are captured. Some games even didn't use them. Is there enough reason to capture these cities? Or are the continent bonuses too high?

Cheers

cheers

[danryan]

My initial reaction is that if the southwest is a +4 the southeast should be a +3.

[ender516]

Been playing 1:1 speed games on this map, love it, but just had my opponent drop the +4 Henegouwen bonus and take the first turn...game over. That probably shouldn't be allowed to happen. +4 is just too large a bonus for 4 terts if you're able to get it on the drop. Otherwise, fabulous map!

Thanks for the reply. It was a game with only one opponent. I think that can happen if you're start positions are a bit unbalanced. It's an automatic function in the code that choses your and your opponent's start position, and add some extra neutrals. with some bad luck one can take a bonus in the first round. But I'm not a pro...

Henegouwen doesn't have a capital with a +1 auto-deploy, and it borders with 3 provinces. I think, for these reasons we decided to give it a +4. true, it only have 4 territs. What does the forum think?

another question, related to it: I checked out the running games. A lot of them are done in around 7 - 9 rounds. not all cities are captured. Some games even didn't use them. Is there enough reason to capture these cities? Or are the continent bonuses too high?

Cheers

cheers

If I'm using it right, MrBenn's Bonus Probability Calculator says that in a two player game on this map, the probability of any player getting a particular 4-region zone (4-territory continent, if you will) is 1.56%. I think this falls within the guidelines usually followed in the Foundry, so the question is whether the consequences (a +4 bonus) are too severe, given that someone may occasionally get this bonus.

[DubWarrior]

Been playing 1:1 speed games on this map, love it, but just had my opponent drop the +4 Henegouwen bonus and take the first turn...game over. That probably shouldn't be allowed to happen. +4 is just too large a bonus for 4 terts if you're able to get it on the drop. Otherwise, fabulous map!

Thanks for the reply. It was a game with only one opponent. I think that can happen if you're start positions are a bit unbalanced. It's an automatic function in the code that choses your and your opponent's start position, and add some extra neutrals. with some bad luck one can take a bonus in the first round. But I'm not a pro...

Henegouwen doesn't have a capital with a +1 auto-deploy, and it borders with 3 provinces. I think, for these reasons we decided to give it a +4. true, it only have 4 territs. What does the forum think?

another question, related to it: I checked out the running games. A lot of them are done in around 7 - 9 rounds. not all cities are captured. Some games even didn't use them. Is there enough reason to capture these cities? Or are the continent bonuses too high?

Cheers

cheers

If I'm using it right, MrBenn's Bonus Probability Calculator says that in a two player game on this map, the probability of any player getting a particular 4-region zone (4-territory continent, if you will) is 1.56%. I think this falls within the guidelines usually followed in the Foundry, so the question is whether the consequences (a +4 bonus) are too severe, given that someone may occasionally get this bonus.

I see. Your suggestion would be to lower the +4 to a +3 for example?
I must admit that while playing with spoils it pretty easy to get a lot of bonuses: spoils, regions, cities etc...So It could be a good idea to lower some bonusregions (especially Artesie to my feel...)
cheers

[DubWarrior]

My initial reaction is that if the southwest is a +4 the southeast should be a +3.

Keeping in mind that a +5 for Kroon-Vlaanderen is almost impossible to get, but Oostervant and Artesië combined makes a +6 bonus and is way more easier to capture and hold; combined with Doornik that makes a +7! Looks like a lot of troops so I suggest artesië becomes a +3 bonusregion

what do you guys think?

[danryan]

+5 seems low for Kroon, but also kind of irrelevant. It is impossible for me to envision someone holding it under any scenario where the game isn't over.

I still think Henegouwen should be +3, while artesie should also be +3. I'd say your bonuses are all ok except Henegouwen. With a combination of neutrals and friendly drop it can be a game killer at +4. Kortrijk looks about like a +4 should - lots of access points, central location, hard to hold.

[DubWarrior]

+5 seems low for Kroon, but also kind of irrelevant. It is impossible for me to envision someone holding it under any scenario where the game isn't over.

I still think Henegouwen should be +3, while artesie should also be +3. I'd say your bonuses are all ok except Henegouwen. With a combination of neutrals and friendly drop it can be a game killer at +4. Kortrijk looks about like a +4 should - lots of access points, central location, hard to hold.

Yes indeed, It's the same scenario for Henegouwen. I agree with you on the +3 for Henegouwen and Artesië

I don't think i need to make the bonus higher for Kroonvlaanderen, because it comes with the auto-deploy cities Ieper, Gent and has a close connetion with other important parts, such as Brugge and Kortrijk.

[Arama86n]

Just wanted to drop a line and say awesome job!
I've found myself sticking to more standard maps without auto-deploys and such, but as soon as I saw this one I knew this would be my gateway map to playing more complicated maps, just love the style.
The map seems very versatile, with several '2' bonuses, as well as the many autodeploy sites thus allowing for far more diverse gameplay. I see myself enjoying many a game on it!
/AramA

[MrBenn]

DubWarrior, if you've decided to make an update, please can you post updated links for images and XML as appropriate please.

Thank you

[jefjef]

Fantastic map! Have played several and I will play many. The bonuses all look absolutely proper.

One change I would seriously consider is dropping Arras to Neutral 4. That would make it more attractive and less of a bonus guard/bypassed obstacle.

AND as sheltered as Brugge is it should only be worth 1 auto deploy.

[DubWarrior]

Back with an update!

Changes:
- Henegouwen bonus= +2
- More grey-ish color for Arras and Brugge

Why only a +2 for Henegouwen?
because: South-east is an area with a lot of smaller provinces. Combined with the presence of Arras and cities like Aalst and Doornik, this area is easily to conquer (the whole or a part of it) and defend. For example: together with Oostervant you make a bonus of +4, by only defending 3 regions. Together with the Doornik-autodeploy this grows to a +5. Once conquered Arras too, this even makes a +7.
My point is: it's easy to gain some extra bonus in the south-east. It's not necessary to make that area too important with too large bonuses like a +3 of a +4. In order to make the battle more focussed on the cities, there is no need to overpower some region with other high bonuses.

Hope you all agree

here are the files:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS3S.tif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS3L.tif

corrected XML
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//xml01072010.xml

[jefjef]

Henegouwen bonus as a + 2????????? I could understand 3. But 2 is just too low. It is not easy to hold with out holding Ronse and Sint Amands.

Thats just a bad idea. Makes it even less attractive.

[MrBenn]

Back with an update!

Changes:
- Henegouwen bonus= +2
- More grey-ish color for Arras and Brugge

Why only a +2 for Henegouwen?
because: South-east is an area with a lot of smaller provinces. Combined with the presence of Arras and cities like Aalst and Doornik, this area is easily to conquer (the whole or a part of it) and defend. For example: together with Oostervant you make a bonus of +4, by only defending 3 regions. Together with the Doornik-autodeploy this grows to a +5. Once conquered Arras too, this even makes a +7.
My point is: it's easy to gain some extra bonus in the south-east. It's not necessary to make that area too important with too large bonuses like a +3 of a +4. In order to make the battle more focussed on the cities, there is no need to overpower some region with other high bonuses.

Hope you all agree

here are the files:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS3S.tif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS3L.tif

corrected XML
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//xml01072010.xml

The update has been sent to lackattack

[danryan]

Not sure why Henegouwen ended up +2, that is too low. +3 would have been just right. This map is a very good small doubles map, nice job on it. Hope you can change that bonus one more time though.

[jefjef]

Henegouwen bonus as a + 2????????? I could understand 3. But 2 is just too low. It is not easy to hold with out holding Ronse and Sint Amands.

Thats just a bad idea. Makes it even less attractive.

Not sure why Henegouwen ended up +2, that is too low. +3 would have been just right. This map is a very good small doubles map, nice job on it. Hope you can change that bonus one more time though.

FYI. In my games I have only seen Arras conquered once and Doornik a couple times. The way my games play out the reasons you site for reducing this bonus to two just has not/does not apply.

[DubWarrior]

Why only a +2 for Henegouwen?
because: South-east is an area with a lot of smaller provinces. Combined with the presence of Arras and cities like Aalst and Doornik, this area is easily to conquer (the whole or a part of it) and defend. For example: together with Oostervant you make a bonus of +4, by only defending 3 regions. Together with the Doornik-autodeploy this grows to a +5. Once conquered Arras too, this even makes a +7.
My point is: it's easy to gain some extra bonus in the south-east. It's not necessary to make that area too important with too large bonuses like a +3 of a +4. In order to make the battle more focussed on the cities, there is no need to overpower some region with other high bonuses.

In my games Arras played a major part, and so did the south-east. This is still a Beta-map which means we can try it at least.
Don't get me wrong: I very much appreciate the view of a Colonel. Give it a try and if it's not working we still can try a +3 change. Or stick with the full +4. Feel free to post your experiences once the +2 version is up and running.

[MrBenn]

The amendments have gone live...

[MrBenn]

Why only a +2 for Henegouwen?
because: South-east is an area with a lot of smaller provinces. Combined with the presence of Arras and cities like Aalst and Doornik, this area is easily to conquer (the whole or a part of it) and defend. For example: together with Oostervant you make a bonus of +4, by only defending 3 regions. Together with the Doornik-autodeploy this grows to a +5. Once conquered Arras too, this even makes a +7.
My point is: it's easy to gain some extra bonus in the south-east. It's not necessary to make that area too important with too large bonuses like a +3 of a +4. In order to make the battle more focussed on the cities, there is no need to overpower some region with other high bonuses.

In my games Arras played a major part, and so did the south-east. This is still a Beta-map which means we can try it at least.
Don't get me wrong: I very much appreciate the view of a Colonel. Give it a try and if it's not working we still can try a +3 change. Or stick with the full +4. Feel free to post your experiences once the +2 version is up and running.

I'd be inclined to switch to a +3; then we can push the boat out once and for all!

[danryan]

I vote for that option. Otherwise this map is just right. Nice artwork too!

[Arama86n]

Guys, just remember, you can't judge the map fron one game type. For example, just because this or that bonus never gets taken 1v1, doesn't mean it won't be used in 8 player standard. And four player assassin is going to play out differently than a quards game... just stating the obvious here, but keep it in mind when suggesting changes.


Loving Flanders 1302 btw

[jefjef]

Guys, just remember, you can't judge the map fron one game type. For example, just because this or that bonus never gets taken 1v1, doesn't mean it won't be used in 8 player standard. And four player assassin is going to play out differently than a quards game... just stating the obvious here, but keep it in mind when suggesting changes.


Loving Flanders 1302 btw

That bonus at 3 fits...