[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[yeti_c]

No no - that's fine - I was just trying to assuage your offendedness!

C.

[OliverFA]

Just a quick note to let you know I have started creating the XML file.

Currently I am creating the XML positions and adjacencies for the small map.
When I am finished, I will continue with the continents, one tech at a time.

I expect to post some progress soon.

[yeti_c]

Just a quick note to let you know I have started creating the XML file.

Currently I am creating the XML positions and adjacencies for the small map.
When I am finished, I will continue with the continents, one tech at a time.

I expect to post some progress soon.

FWIW - it's usually a good idea to get the GP stamp before doing this - else you may have a fair amount of rework to do!

C.

[OliverFA]

Just a quick note to let you know I have started creating the XML file.

Currently I am creating the XML positions and adjacencies for the small map.
When I am finished, I will continue with the continents, one tech at a time.

I expect to post some progress soon.

FWIW - it's usually a good idea to get the GP stamp before doing this - else you may have a fair amount of rework to do!

C.

Thanks for the advice. I'll work in both thing simultaneously. Because there is lot of work to do in the XML, I am not just making the hard code, but dividing it in meaningful sections that make the work easier. Also, despite I have an idea about how I want to do it, I still need to work the specific way on how simulate techs by using continents. I am confident that work won't be lost even if we need to change some things on the design.

[TaCktiX]

Version 2

Updates:
- Fixed SA1's gankedness
- Made a wire version showing the connections of capitals, labs, and TSFs to their appropriate researches
- Made a provisional value version that shows current neutral values on homelands and researches
- Extended bottom right of map's territories down to meet the legend, neutral country bonuses not being used
Small Version with 88's

Click image to enlarge.

Small Version with 888's

Click image to enlarge.

Small Version with Provisional Values

Click image to enlarge.

Wire Version

Click image to enlarge.

Notes on this version:
- I only illustrated one homeland/lab pair, as the rest are identical in structure
- Attacked territories have a dot on top of them
- Red means the territory can bombard the dotted territory
- Black means the territory can attack the dotted territory
- Yes, it looks cheap and quick
Rationale for bombardment: Player elimination once their capital has been taken over

Gameplay Concerns
A: Zeppelin Strikes looks pathetically weak compared to the other researches. Perhaps adding adjacent neutral countries? Neutral value will be adjusted as appropriate.
B: I'm convinced there is too much Conquer on the map. There are 126 territories outside of the Homelands, which are 48 strong themselves. Compare that to the research territories, which for the sake of argument I'm including all of them; we've got 66. So the map is presently 2/3 Conquer, 1/3 Research. Doesn't seem even. I intend to cut the number of neutral territories down significantly for Version 3, unless I'm presented with a good counter-argument.
C: There is a discrepancy in Activated Reserves between the Wire, 88, and 888 versions compared to the Provisional Value version. The PV version is correct.

Graphical Concerns
A: Still looking for ideas to spruce up the bridges. Any and all suggestions appreciated.
B: I need to even out the spacing between the researches. The last 3 columns have different spacing than the first 3 columns.

[natty dread]

A: Zeppelin Strikes looks pathetically weak compared to the other researches. Perhaps adding adjacent neutral countries? Neutral value will be adjusted as appropriate.

How about making zeppelins able to bombard all mines? That would give them some power. And it would add an interesting dynamic between mines and zeppelins.

B: I'm convinced there is too much Conquer on the map. There are 126 territories outside of the Homelands, which are 48 strong themselves. Compare that to the research territories, which for the sake of argument I'm including all of them; we've got 66. So the map is presently 2/3 Conquer, 1/3 Research. Doesn't seem even. I intend to cut the number of neutral territories down significantly for Version 3, unless I'm presented with a good counter-argument.

Hm. I don't think the amount of territories is necessarily the best indicator of this... The research territories are more valuable than the conquer territories, and lots of the bonuses given by the conquer territories are tied to researches... I like there being lots of room in the conquer area.

As for bridges... make them curve up slightly, they'll look more natural.

[Evil DIMwit]

How about making zeppelins able to bombard all mines? That would give them some power. And it would add an interesting dynamic between mines and zeppelins.

Or just territories in your own 'quadrant'. That way they don't become too powerful, but still let you establish some sort of territoriality over the nearby area.

Hm. I don't think the amount of territories is necessarily the best indicator of this... The research territories are more valuable than the conquer territories, and lots of the bonuses given by the conquer territories are tied to researches... I like there being lots of room in the conquer area.

On the other hand, you've got a bunch of territories that just don't do anything. Maybe you should add some more barriers, chokepoints, bonuses -- *something* to make the center of the map more strategically interesting.

[natty dread]

Also how about making the advanced researches so that you need to research them in order? So that you must first research Activated reserves, then open conscription, and then doomsday device. The doomsday device is pretty powerful IMO... if a player manages to take it, the other players have to first attack through his homeland, take his capital and then bombard the doomsday device, all in one turn, to prevent the player from winning.

[TaCktiX]

Also how about making the advanced researches so that you need to research them in order? So that you must first research Activated reserves, then open conscription, and then doomsday device. The doomsday device is pretty powerful IMO... if a player manages to take it, the other players have to first attack through his homeland, take his capital and then bombard the doomsday device, all in one turn, to prevent the player from winning.

The problem you pointed out just now is why I think there is too much Conquer. Right now, I feel that there is no reason not to just Research Rush and take Doomsday, and when you do it'll take too long for players to reach you to stop your inevitable victory. Doomsday should be a threat in the mid-to-late game, but stoppable by a sufficiently motivated player.

[natty dread]

You have a point, I'll need to think about this

[yeti_c]

That wasn't the 'wire' version I imagined!!

C.

[natty dread]

I think yeti probably meant something like this which was made for the lunar map...

Click image to enlarge.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

My apologies if some of these points have already been determined... haven't been able to catch up on this thread for a week or two now

I think if you move the special researches a bit farther apart (you have plenty of room to do this) you can fit 888:s in them and put a bigger number for the doomsday device. If you get a +10 autodeploy for TSF, and counting deployments in, 99 armies is nowhere near enough. The game would be over in 10 turns.

I agree, doomsday device really needs to be a larger number than 99. There should be enough space to at least make the doomsday device a triple digit number. Once I get some time to number crunch, I'll give some thoughts on what the number should be, along with some of the other techs.

Everyone starts with a laboratory and a capital, roughly corresponding from bottom left to bottom right on the map for starting positions and left to right on the laboratories. The legend in the bottom right explains the attack relationship between capitals, laboratories, and Top Secret Facilities.

I'm not sure how well predetermined starting positions would work. It would work fine for 6 player games, possibly even 5 player games, but the way it's set up now, I don't think it would work well for lower player games, particularly 3 player, since green will get horribly hosed and blue has open season on yellow's empty area.

I don't know if there's any way in XML to check to see if someone owns ANY of the techs and/or laboratory/TSF in order to determine nationality? If there is, then it would be a good way to allow for random drops. Otherwise I think some thought should go into figuring out a better configuration for starting positions.

I've run out of time, so will need to comment on the rest of the posts a bit later on.

[TaCktiX]

That wasn't the 'wire' version I imagined!!

C.

I don't see how much more wire the map needs, honestly. The rest of it is contiguous territories just like standard Classic. If there's been a shift in gameplay analysis since January, I'll be happy to oblige, but again I don't see the need.

[yeti_c]

That wasn't the 'wire' version I imagined!!

C.

I don't see how much more wire the map needs, honestly. The rest of it is contiguous territories just like standard Classic. If there's been a shift in gameplay analysis since January, I'll be happy to oblige, but again I don't see the need.

Probably cos it's far easier to analyse gameplay on a wire version - rather than a map version.

C.

[OliverFA]

Updated and cleaned up first post. Tomorrow I will complete it with the updated tech description and with a way to measure progress.

[MarshalNey]

Nice edit of the first post, it's much easier to grasp the map ideas now, and I'm sure it'll be perfect when you complete the research explanation and development.

So what kind of feedback are you guys looking for on this map?

One thing I suspect is true but don't get from the legend... when it says that labs can attack the techs under them, do they have to be attacked in order? I'm hoping the answer is no.

[TaCktiX]

The answer is most certainly no. As for concerns, see my update post on Page 26.

[natty dread]

You know, the capitals being able to bombard researches puzzles me. What if you're doing really well on the conquest side, but someone notices a hole in your defense and manages to take your capital... then he can just smash your research, and leave you wandering on the conquest side, not being able to regain your research?

I guess I'm trying to say, the problem is that when all your researches get bombarded, there's no way to begin researching any more.

[TaCktiX]

I think I need to edit Capitals' capabilities to be Attack Labs and TSFs, and Bombard researches. That would be a better gameplay function. Nice catch.

[natty dread]

Although... if capitals can attack Labs / TSF:s, this enables a player to have multiple researches...

This is a pickle. Perhaps just abandon the idea of eliminating your opponents, and make this purely an objective based map? This would make assassin & terminator games pointless, but then, this is already a pretty non-standard map...


edit. or, you could make it so, that the research bonuses won't be duplicated even if you hold several of the same researches, and that you need a matching capital to get benefits of the researches. This way, if you conquer someone else's research, it doesn't give you a huge benefit - and it would be more realistic, as a research is either researhced or not researched. If you know what I mean...

[TaCktiX]

Although... if capitals can attack Labs / TSF:s, this enables a player to have multiple researches...

You can only attack your OWN lab/TSF/research, unless you have someone else's capital. I get the feeling that the legend will need to get slightly bigger to note this. I thought it semi-obvious.

[natty dread]

I know... I mean, if you storm someone's capital, you can take his research... Then you have 2 researches. So to prepare for this, code each row of researches into a continent with a "required=1" tag, this way if you have 1-6 of the same researches it will be the same. Because... it wouldn't be realistic to get multiple benefits from the same research, now would it?

[yeti_c]

I know... I mean, if you storm someone's capital, you can take his research... Then you have 2 researches. So to prepare for this, code each row of researches into a continent with a "required=1" tag, this way if you have 1-6 of the same researches it will be the same. Because... it wouldn't be realistic to get multiple benefits from the same research, now would it?

What about 2 & 3 player games?

Someone's gonna be miffed when they research extra stuff to find that they don't get nowt.

Also - this allows you to have 1 capital - and 1 set of research that aren't actually linked.

C.

[natty dread]

What about 2 & 3 player games?

Someone's gonna be miffed when they research extra stuff to find that they don't get nowt.

Umm... what? You'd get the same benefit from a certain research, regardless if you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 of that same research. I don't see how anyone would get "miffed".

Example: Standing army research. There are 6 of them, 1 for each player. Now if they're coded so each pays the benefit, a player holding 3 of the Standing army researches would get +9 troops to deploy. This could happen in a 2 player game where everyone starts with 3 labs.

Now, if they were coded in the way I explained, the player holding the 3 standing army researches would only get that +3 troops, and the other player could just take one standing army research and still get the same +3 troops.

Binary logic: you either have a certain research or you don't have it, not "I have 3 researches so I get 3 times the benefit"... where's the logic in that.