Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

[jefjef]

From what I see some drop points will have an unfair advantage over others in some game types due to the # of exit points.

[grifftron]

From what I see some drop points will have an unfair advantage over others in some game types due to the # of exit points.

Now i thought this was what lots of people were telling me to do, have a "diff" kinda of game play for diff drop points, this can change...

Thanks IH

and jim had some really awesome suggested he PM to Blitz and I, hopefully he posts them in here for all to see. Possibly get a clan ladder and even a Clan Cup on the map.

-griff

[natty dread]

Not a big deal. How does that give an advantage anyway? You can choose in which order you take your territories?

I'd say just keep it that way. The details can be worked out. If some area has an advantage by location, give it less territories -> smaller bonus. Remember New world...

[jiminski]

i'm out for Cutesy Club

[natty dread]

OK here's the thing, Jiminski... almost everything you suggested in that post is impossible to code with the current XML.

To be number 1 they also have to hold the most overall territories.

The XML cannot access the amount of players' territories, or for that matter any other game variables, in this way. Cannot be done.

Clan Seeding does not come into action until after the first round and the position in the ranking gains additional troops. Who knows maybe:
-Number 1 gains 3 extra reinforcements
-Number 2 gains 1 extra reinforcements

There's no way to make the XML dynamic, so that it would change after round x, etc. Also the XML can not assign extra variables, such as these rankings, to players, so this cannot be done either.

It would be nice if the ranking table could be on display at all times on the board but I suppose it could just be listed and awarded at the beginning of the go, as with a normal bonus.

Since there is no way to code this ranking table, this can't be done either. Also nothing can be displayed on the map except territory numbers.

Now in addition to being able to win the game by killing all the opposition, the player can also be victorious by holding - Pinnacle + all 10 Clan territories + all the Clan portals (named after the 'Lesser Clans'

This could be done.

[jiminski]

OK here's the thing, Jiminski... almost everything you suggested in that post is impossible to code with the current XML.

To be number 1 they also have to hold the most overall territories.

The XML cannot access the amount of players' territories, or for that matter any other game variables, in this way. Cannot be done.

Clan Seeding does not come into action until after the first round and the position in the ranking gains additional troops. Who knows maybe:
-Number 1 gains 3 extra reinforcements
-Number 2 gains 1 extra reinforcements

There's no way to make the XML dynamic, so that it would change after round x, etc. Also the XML can not assign extra variables, such as these rankings, to players, so this cannot be done either.

It would be nice if the ranking table could be on display at all times on the board but I suppose it could just be listed and awarded at the beginning of the go, as with a normal bonus.

Since there is no way to code this ranking table, this can't be done either. Also nothing can be displayed on the map except territory numbers.

Now in addition to being able to win the game by killing all the opposition, the player can also be victorious by holding - Pinnacle + all 10 Clan territories + all the Clan portals (named after the 'Lesser Clans'

This could be done.

thanks Natty,
But so far the least interesting aspect alone can be done....

Now i am no coder, however i do need to be sure that you understand what i mean before we call the whole thing off.

the Clan Ranking is only for the bonus. and hopefully to add a 'Ranking scoreboard'.
How is the ranking made?
1. Through the number of territories - reinforcement is already determined by this.
2. by holding more Clan territories than anyone else which correspond to the held Clan Capital - again this is not too dissimilar to the group bonus's in 'Greater China' or the 'Age Of' maps .. is it?

I always hear it's not possible with current coding! well let's find a way with the existing coding! all it takes is imagination rather than pessimism and intransigence. That's how DIM and Yeti did it isn't it? (Please do correct me if i am completely wrong)

We want interesting game play.. that's what is being called for: - something novel to take this from the realms of a gimmicky map which is an exercise in collective egotism! well let us try to do something which lifts it up from that for everyone then!

I can't help with specifics but i will try to help as a passionate sounding board.

[natty dread]

Now i am no coder, however i do need to be sure that you understand what i mean before we call the whole thing off.

the Clan Ranking is only for the bonus. and hopefully to add a 'Ranking scoreboard'.
How is the ranking made?
1. Through the number of territories - reinforcement is already determined by this.
2. by holding more Clan territories than anyone else which correspond to the held Clan Capital - again this is not too dissimilar to the group bonus's in 'Greater China' or the 'Age Of' maps .. is it?

OK, let me try to explain this. The bonus can be given according to the number of territories. Or certain territories you hold. Or certain bonus areas (groups of territories). But you cannot make it like "this guys has most of these territories, he's number 1, this guy has the second most, he's number 2" and then the #1 guy gets x troops, and the #2 guy gets y troops... which I think is what you're trying to do.

The whole concept of a "ranking" between players is impossible, because to make that happen you'd need to assign a variable to each player, ie. the rank, and this is impossible to do with the current XML features.

I always hear it's not possible with current coding! well let's find a way with the existing coding! all it takes is imagination rather than pessimism and intransigence. That's how DIM and Yeti did it isn't it? (Please do correct me if i am completely wrong)

Any optimism and transigence in the world will not allow you to assign variables where the framework will not allow you to assign variables. XML is not a coding environment, it's a database format. It allows you to record the features of your map, as variables and database elements pre-defined by the code that will be using the XML. It does not allow you to create any new variables or database elements, it does not allow you to change the code, it is just a database format.

It cannot be done, and that's that. Of course the makers of the map are welcome to throw the map in the bin to wait for an XML update which will likely come, whenever lack gets around to it... oh yeah, it's always "soon"... it's been coming "soon" for the last 2 years or so... so good luck with that.....

[jiminski]

Edit - I'm out for Cutesy Club

[natty dread]

Many things are possible, we just need to try to work around what we have. please try to work with me rather than negatively dissuading me. Of course you do not have to be engaged at all but it would be great if you could be.

I'm not defensive at all, I'm trying to explain to you what works and what doesn't, and why it doesn't work when it doesn't. You don't seem to believe me though.

We have a Clan Castle which has 9 corresponding clan territories in all other areas of the board.

How about these 9 be allotted a fixed bonus value - if you have:

Clan castle + 2 Clan territories + the code allots 1 troop
Clan castle + 3 Clan territories + the code allots 2 troop
Clan castle + 4 Clan territories + the code allots 3 troop
Clan castle + 5 Clan territories + the code allots 4 troop
Clan castle + 6 Clan territories + the code allots 5 troop
Clan castle + 7 Clan territories + the code allots 6 troop
Clan castle + 8 Clan territories + the code allots 7 troop
Clan castle + 9 Clan territories + the code allots 8 troop

This can be done. This is possible.

Then, and excuse me if this is not possible, but then can we not just query these against the other players?

No. The code evaluates the bonus of each player independently. You cannot make the bonus be given based on what other players have, only what the player getting the bonus has.

there must surely be a creative way to get there using the existing tools?

Why don't you take a look at some of the XML tutorials, to get an idea how the bonuses are coded. Then, by all means, try to come up with a "creative way", but so far, you keep insisting that all these things must be possible to "somehow" be coded, when they're not.

Once again: the XML is not a programming language. The XML is simply a database format, in which the features of the map are recorded. This puts severe limitations on what can be done with the maps. Any kind of bonuses that require external variables or functions are impossible.

[jiminski]

ok buddy carry on, I am not willing to try to work on the idea any more. Cutesy Club just reminded me how pissed off i am with the site.

[chipv]

ok buddy carry on, I am not willing to try to work on the idea any more. Cutesy Club just reminded me how pissed off i am with the site.

I can't find your post, jimi, wanted to post on it but now it has disappeared...

There are creative ways to use the XML, doesn't mean everyone can see them,btw.

[jiminski]

ok buddy carry on, I am not willing to try to work on the idea any more. Cutesy Club just reminded me how pissed off i am with the site.

I can't find your post, jimi, wanted to post on it but now it has disappeared...

There are creative ways to use the XML, doesn't mean everyone can see them,btw.

Thanks a lot Chip, there are usually ways around these things if we have enough bloody minded determination! but sadly I can't help thrash this idea out any longer.

[natty dread]

I can't find your post, jimi, wanted to post on it but now it has disappeared...

There are creative ways to use the XML, doesn't mean everyone can see them,btw.

OK chipv. You tell me, how do you use the XML to create a ranking system, so that whoever holds most territories gets x troops, whoever hold the second most territories gets y troops and so on...

There are creative ways, but there are also limitations. Or everyone wouldn't be whining for an XML update all the time...

[chipv]

Can you just PM me then, please. I read it briefly, and it was exactly the kind of thinking I was suggesting earlier (and ignored).

Just to make the point again, MrBenn has also made the same point about gameplay ideas being brushed aside.
If you just keep denying this your map will never get quenched, we are not saying this for no reason, I will say yet again,
go back and respond to all threads properly , not just acknowledge them. The reason why we keep saying this is that we
are afraid your map will not proceed because you are doing this. We would like to see a clan map, I repeat.

My advice is not to post a response asking me to go through and find these posts, that is your job if you wish the map to proceed.

jimi, PM please, your ideas more than one appraisal.

[chipv]

I can't find your post, jimi, wanted to post on it but now it has disappeared...

There are creative ways to use the XML, doesn't mean everyone can see them,btw.

OK chipv. You tell me, how do you use the XML to create a ranking system, so that whoever holds most territories gets x troops, whoever hold the second most territories gets y troops and so on...

There are creative ways, but there are also limitations. Or everyone wouldn't be whining for an XML update all the time...

I beg your pardon?

[natty dread]

You were saying that there are creative ways to use the XML. So tell me how can jiminski's suggestion be done?

He wants to create a "ranking" bonus system, so that, for example:

Player a holds 10 territories, player a rank = 1
Player b holds 9 territories, player b rank = 2
Player c holds 8 territories, player c rank = 3
etc.

Then, whoever is rank 1 gets 15 troops, whoever is rank 2 gets 10 troops, whoever is rank 3 gets 8 troops etc.

My understanding is that this can't be done with the current XML. It would require that you would be able to assign a variable to each player (the rank), and give the bonuses based on this variable. Or that you could assign bonuses to one player based not only on his own territories, but also on what other players hold. And this cannot be done, since the XML does not allow external variables, and it evaluates each player individually, with no regard to what other players are holding.

But if I'm wrong here, feel free to correct me.

[chipv]

You were saying that there are creative ways to use the XML. So tell me how can jiminski's suggestion be done?

He wants to create a "ranking" bonus system, so that, for example:

Player a holds 10 territories, player a rank = 1
Player b holds 9 territories, player b rank = 2
Player c holds 8 territories, player c rank = 3
etc.

Then, whoever is rank 1 gets 15 troops, whoever is rank 2 gets 10 troops, whoever is rank 3 gets 8 troops etc.

My understanding is that this can't be done with the current XML. It would require that you would be able to assign a variable to each player (the rank), and give the bonuses based on this variable. Or that you could assign bonuses to one player based not only on his own territories, but also on what other players hold. And this cannot be done, since the XML does not allow external variables, and it evaluates each player individually, with no regard to what other players are holding.

But if I'm wrong here, feel free to correct me.

I will take a look at this, on first glance looks like you are right, but if you are reading posts correctly you can see I have asked to see jimi's PM - that means I haven't had a chance to read it properly, so your aggressive manner is unwarranted (also towards jimi if you haven't realised why I want to take a look).

[natty dread]

Aggressive? I can't see how I'm being aggressive. I was trying to explain to jim that what he was suggesting was impossible.

Tone of speech is so hard to relay through text though... perhaps this pink colour is affecting us all and making us more irritable?

[chipv]

Aggressive? I can't see how I'm being aggressive. I was trying to explain to jim that what he was suggesting was impossible.

Tone of speech is so hard to relay through text though... perhaps this pink colour is affecting us all and making us more irritable?

This is a distinct possibility...

[jpcloet]

Ok, so the closest you could do would be some sort of killer neutral, that kills your scoreboard location by person, and places a variable auto-deploy on a location that is isolated. It's the variable part I can't figure out. Could be possible if you can use the <reinforcements> within the killer neutral reset. Seems unlikely, but that's the closest I can get.

[Industrial Helix]

So yeah, biggest gameplay thing that stands out to me is how some drop points have three exits and other two... this is a big deal in card games. My usual strat is to stay on my auto-deploy and take a space at each time to get the card. If I've only got two spaces to grab and other have three, I'm at a disadvantage. Slight disadvantage but a disadvantage no less.

I'd still like to see the names spelled out... I know Thota but groups like Tofu ect that I have no idea who they are. Perhaps you could spell it out in the log if you're not already planning to do so.

Perhaps we could have some color coordination between Pinnicle portals and main map portals... or do the main map portals attack any pinnicle portal?

That's what stands out to me at this point. Keep up the good work!

[grifftron]

Can you just PM me then, please. I read it briefly, and it was exactly the kind of thinking I was suggesting earlier (and ignored).

Just to make the point again, MrBenn has also made the same point about gameplay ideas being brushed aside.
If you just keep denying this your map will never get quenched, we are not saying this for no reason, I will say yet again,
go back and respond to all threads properly , not just acknowledge them. The reason why we keep saying this is that we
are afraid your map will not proceed because you are doing this. We would like to see a clan map, I repeat.

My advice is not to post a response asking me to go through and find these posts, that is your job if you wish the map to proceed.

jimi, PM please, your ideas more than one appraisal.

At first i was confused why we were being told we were "brushing aside" ideas and suggestions, Blitz and I are both pretty new to the foundry, and thought we were covering every suggestion, but now i realize we are at fault for now responding to ALL threads properly and not just acknowledging them. We are sorry about this and will try to respond to past ideas and future ideas and suggestions more properly and write them out for all to see as Blitz and I both work mostly by PM.

Sorry again guys, we will try to be more better with suggestions like chip, Mrbenn and others have said. We had not done this on purpose, still learning the ropes around here.

-griff

[grifftron]

So yeah, biggest gameplay thing that stands out to me is how some drop points have three exits and other two... this is a big deal in card games. My usual strat is to stay on my auto-deploy and take a space at each time to get the card. If I've only got two spaces to grab and other have three, I'm at a disadvantage. Slight disadvantage but a disadvantage no less.

I'd still like to see the names spelled out... I know Thota but groups like Tofu ect that I have no idea who they are. Perhaps you could spell it out in the log if you're not already planning to do so.

Perhaps we could have some color coordination between Pinnicle portals and main map portals... or do the main map portals attack any pinnicle portal?

That's what stands out to me at this point. Keep up the good work!

Yes i will do something with this soon IH. And all portals connect to all portals for now... I will try to do something to make this more clearer. Thanks for your comments. And I will have Blitz comment on jims suggestion more. I really like it but its more of "is it possible" right now. Thanks natty and chip for looking at possibilities on this, i have no clue, just doing graphics on the map.

-griff

[Blitzaholic]

Just to make the point again, MrBenn has also made the same point about gameplay ideas being brushed aside.
If you just keep denying this your map will never get quenched, we are not saying this for no reason, I will say yet again,
go back and respond to all threads properly , not just acknowledge them. The reason why we keep saying this is that we
are afraid your map will not proceed because you are doing this. We would like to see a clan map, I repeat.

chip, we have not brushed any suggestions aside, we have read every single post in the thread, we may not have responded to every single one, but, a lot we have, Sometimes we do not like the suggestions and do not make them, I guess we could of posted NO, others time we have liked suggestions and we have posted, and finally, many changes have been made and are reflected on page 1 of this thread. I am glad you would like to see a clan map as many do. To simply go back and reread every single post and respond to every single post, I do not think we really need to do that, do we? I mean this is our map. We do not have to comment on every single post, do we? Or is that a map foundry rule? If we liked the ideas, we added them and are reflected on page 1, if we have not, they we didn't like. Do not take it personal, We cannot please everyone. Which suggestion would you like us to reconsider? Can you please post it and we will re-examine it and post a reply if that is helpful. Have some patience please chip, again, we are noobs at this and we trying to accomplish a great thing for CC with a clan map. We appreciate you and mrbenn and many others willing to help us and we thank you very much.

From what I see some drop points will have an unfair advantage over others in some game types due to the # of exit points.

The details still need to be worked out jefjef, hopefully natty will provide some ideas on how we can balance it. This was his idea and we did take it into consideration as several seemed to like it. Also jefjef, can you please post exactly where you see the unbalance and then we can re-look at this. Thank You kind sir.

Whoa... i love the way this is shaping up, the graphics overhaul really sells it to me, imo.

I'll post more on the gameplay when I get a chance.

thx a lot IH

[Blitzaholic]

Ok, so the closest you could do would be some sort of killer neutral, that kills your scoreboard location by person, and places a variable auto-deploy on a location that is isolated. It's the variable part I can't figure out. Could be possible if you can use the <reinforcements> within the killer neutral reset. Seems unlikely, but that's the closest I can get.

we are not going to go with that idea for now, JP, thx for trying to be helpful.

Looks like Jiminski edited his post, but, this is in reply to him. We thank you Jim for you creative ideas. Much appreciated. I am not sure if the xml can create a ranking system or not, so, we would need to get back to you on that. As of now, like I posted earlier, we will cancel on this idea.

So yeah, biggest gameplay thing that stands out to me is how some drop points have three exits and other two... this is a big deal in card games. My usual strat is to stay on my auto-deploy and take a space at each time to get the card. If I've only got two spaces to grab and other have three, I'm at a disadvantage. Slight disadvantage but a disadvantage no less.

I am hoping natty will provide a post with a solution to this for balance, and Jp seemed to also agree with natty, so if either of them could post a creative balance to game play that seems fair, we will implement it, if not, we will need to change it back to the way we had it. Not too many people complain about the feudal epic set up, ours was kind of similar to that, but, with some unique game play and the portal element we came up with is excellent and makes this different.

Griff, this is response to you an others about neutrals on portals, I would suggest leaving them at 7 each for now, unless other come posting in here with a different number and has good rational to explain why it should be lowered?

I'd still like to see the names spelled out... I know Thota but groups like Tofu ect that I have no idea who they are. Perhaps you could spell it out in the log if you're not already planning to do so.

Tofu = The Odd Fellow's Union.
BSS = Black Sheep Squadron.
others?

Griff, if there is room, can you spell the clan names in full out in the log please?

Perhaps we could have some color coordination between Pinnicle portals and main map portals... or do the main map portals attack any pinnicle portal?

ALL portals can attack others portals, so, yes, pinnacle portals and main portals can both attack each other and vice versa. I think the color coordiantion for all portals being the same is an excellent idea IH. griff, coud you please do that when you have time m8?

That's what stands out to me at this point. Keep up the good work!

Thank you very much IH, it is very appreciated.